'Gridlock & Road Rage' Ch4 tonight 9pm

dang65

JoeSoap76 wrote:

Maybe the volume of traffic wouldn't decrease by much (say 5%) but it always seems to make the world of difference.

I don't have kids and lose track of when the schools break up... but I always know when they have because of the traffic.

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

My commute is at odd hours, I start at 7:30, so my commute starts about 6:55, now you wouldn't expect school run traffic to affect me much, and yet I have noticed an immense difference this week.

I'm not sure if people are reading my posts. I'm not denying that the roads are quieter during the school holidays. That's blatantly obvious. I'm just saying that they are quieter because the school holidays also remove large numbers of other vehicles which are indirectly related to the school run itself.

If you only removed vehicles which were dropping off or collecting children from school then you would have the same amount of traffic on the roads as you do in the evening rush hour at the moment (say, 5pm-6.30pm) in term time.

Does no one else agree with this theory?!

cee

dang....

I think I said in the post of mine that you quoted earlier that yes....it will have some influence.

So in that respect. Absolutely. I agree.

dirk_van_gently

dang65 wrote:

Does no one else agree with this theory?!

I think the whole traffic conundrum is far more complex than any of us suspect.

Eat My Dust

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

dang65 wrote:

Does no one else agree with this theory?!

I think the whole traffic conundrum is far more complex than any of us suspect.

I think it's fairly black and white. Far too many people are making unecessary journeys by car. People are blind to alternatives.

How many car owners can honestly say that they need a car to survive. When I say need, I mean no other alternative. Probably not many.

dirk_van_gently

EMD I have to agree and disagree with you.
Yes there are: Too many people are making unnecessary journeys by car.

EMD
How many car owners can honestly say that they need a car to survive.

My other half for one, there is NO other method of transport to where she works, no trains, no buses, and at 30+miles each way, not really cycleable.

CyclingBantam

I think you need to say, no other 'realistic' alternative. Clearly everyone has an alternative.

I do agree though that most car journeys are totally needless I think it is just a habit people get in to.

The thing that amazes me though is the massive rise in cost over the recent years has seemingly done nothing to make people want to reduce their car use. I mean, if someone said to me that I can pay c. £300 every month, to have something that I used to go to work in and occasionally during the weekend, when I could pay c.£80 per month for a bus pass (Assuming they are just too lazy to cycle/run/walk etc) that did a simular job I would snap their hands off.

I find people are very defensive about their cars as well and are desperate to justify the cost of them. I just find it so strange.

Eat My Dust

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

My other half for one, there is NO other method of transport to where she works, no trains, no buses, and at 30+miles each way, not really cycleable.

In that case then she would fall into the group that do need a car.

How many cars are there in London? How many of them are needed. In my opinion very very few. Didn't they do a survey recently where the average car journey in London was under two miles. WTF?

Most of my family live in very rural parts of Scotland, they've got more need than most city drivers and they manage to get on with one car per family. In the SE of England it would appear that most housholds have a minimum of two cars. My MD's household has five people living in it and seven cars (they don't live in the house). Again WTF?

The Greg

It is the unnecessary journeys point that it crucial. At least until we find an alternative there will always be a certain number of people who will, out of necessity (i.e. no viable alternatives, delivery vans/trucks etc - I can't see my local's daily keg delivery coming in on the number 168 bus) need to drive their own vehicles to get to work, deliveries etc.

The point that EMD and DvG have rightly made is that there is a very large and increasing number of journeys being made by car that could quite easily be done by some form of alternative transport, be it bus, train, walking, bike etc. These alternative forms of transport are, at least in major urban centres, quite often far quicker and, in doing so relieve the pressure and congestion on the roads for those who use them out of necessity.

The next (and vital) step is to make sure that the alternative (i.e. non-car) form of transport infrastructure is actually put in place where it is needed. If the alternative is a more convenient and cheaper option than the car then people will very quickly vote with their feet (or bike ) and change to that alternative.

dirk_van_gently

BenBlyth wrote:

I find people are very defensive about their cars as well and are desperate to justify the cost of them. I just find it so strange.

Is that BECAUSE it cost so much.
"I spent all this money on a car therefore I must use it"

My MD's household has five people living in it and seven cars (they don't live in the house). Again WTF?

I know of a house hold with 4 occupants and 4 cars + van, yes WTF?
They even have their garden paved over to use as a car park! I kid you not.

Eat My Dust

The Greg wrote:

The next (and vital) step is to make sure that the alternative (i.e. non-car) form of transport infrastructure is actually put in place where it is needed. If the alternative is a more convenient and cheaper option than the car then people will very quickly vote with their feet (or bike ) and change to that alternative.

I think that there's a big group of people who would only change their routine with a gun to their heads!!

Another point I'd like to make is how many people can really afford to own cars. When I go past garages these days I'm truly shocked at the price of new cars. I'm pretty sure most people achieve their motoring ambitions with finance, but can they really afford it? I know people who aren't a kick in the b_lls off of minimum wage but they insist on having cars, it's another thing I don't understand.

Surf-Matt

The traffic in Truro is almost 1/3 of the usual volume when the schools are on holiday.
Surely something needs to be done about so many doing the "school run" which seems to increase in direct relation to child obesity.

I think fuel costs are going to result in a large reduction in traffic volumes soon.

Parkey

Surf-Matt wrote:

Surely something needs to be done about so many doing the "school run" which seems to increase in direct relation to child obesity.

There was a similar comment Kris Murrin on The woman who stops traffic made. Yes it might be slightly more dangerous for a child to cycle to school than to go by car, but if you factor in the obesity related illnesses associated with a complete lack of excercise the child's likely to live much longer if they get on their bike.

dang65

Surf-Matt wrote:

The traffic in Truro is almost 1/3 of the usual volume when the schools are on holiday.

Are you saying that more than two-thirds of Truro's traffic is school related? That's incredible. How many children do you have there, and where do they all go during the holidays?

dang65

Parkey wrote:

Yes it might be slightly more dangerous for a child to cycle to school than to go by car, but if you factor in the obesity related illnesses associated with a complete lack of excercise the child's likely to live much longer if they get on their bike.

The "too dangerous" argument is the most common reason I hear for people not cycling. Some people are completely terrified of traffic, including my missus. She rides on the pavement down our road (which is busy with traffic on the road, but never a pedestrian in sight on the pavement), and only cycles on very quiet roads. I guess it does take a while to build up confidence and the ability to "read" traffic and know where the hazards are.

We need a fixed day to be organised when everyone at the same time will switch from cars to bikes/public transport. Until then, cycling's too terrifying for a lot of people.

Although getting fat and dying of a heart attack isn't a problem at all. :roll:

Surf-Matt

dang65 wrote:

Surf-Matt wrote:

The traffic in Truro is almost 1/3 of the usual volume when the schools are on holiday.

Are you saying that more than two-thirds of Truro's traffic is school related? That's incredible. How many children do you have there, and where do they all go during the holidays?

We have three large private schools and two comprehensives plus a load of primary schools here - and the infrastructure of a small village (it's a City here but a very small one!)

Big catchment area as much of the county is very rural with few large towns.

attica

A doctor friend of mine says that simply by increasing the appeal and availability of public transport, we'd start reducing obesity, by giving people a 5 minute walk to the bus stop rather than the usual 2 seconds to the car, is this perhaps a more realistic idea in the short term than getting everyone onto bikes?

Eat My Dust

TBH I think it would be a nightmare if everybody started cycling from a selfish POV. Imagine hundreds of people that can barely drive cars sometimes all taking to bikes for the morning commute!!!! I'd rather they stayed in their cars!!!! (or got the bus/train)

Bassjunkieuk

Eat My Dust wrote:

TBH I think it would be a nightmare if everybody started cycling from a selfish POV. Imagine hundreds of people that can barely drive cars sometimes all taking to bikes for the morning commute!!!! I'd rather they stayed in their cars!!!! (or got the bus/train)

Mind you they should be nice and easy to spot as they'll all be on new(ish) "whatever was on sale" bikes from Halfords without any lights or safety gear, huffing and puffing along in the gutter :-)

thamacdaddy

I commute from 8:30 and pass by 3 schools within my route. When its school holidays i.e. summer you do notice an instant difference. I don't buy that this is because all those families go on holiday too it has to be school traffic.

However the bigger issue is that everything is centered around 9am starts. All business start at nine and schools 8:45. Along with the fact people nowadays don't work locally in many cases results in massive amounts of traffic. You see a lot of traffic on the commute home but as many businesses finish at differing times its much more free flowing on my route in and out of the city.

Whether schools could start earlier or more businesses be encouraged to flexi time who knows if this would make a difference. We are soon to get congestion charging here in manchester but I am not sure if this will help.

As for people commenting on a few things here I seem to fall into many. I am 27 and all my money goes into my house among other things. I never learnt to drive (although I promised myself I would this year enabling me to hire cars when abroad etc) as I paid for myself to get through uni and never saved for lessons as I knew I wouldn't be able to afford a car. I used to cycle 10 miles to my weekend job when I was 16-18 and used to catch two buses to my school when I was 12-16 as my mum didn't have a car.

I have always used public transport to get around and manage pretty well although since buying my house I have to ask my younger sister to give me a lift with stuff thats bulky which is why its a little embarrassing. Even if I learn this year as I intend to there is no way I can afford to run a car after everything else and nor do I want to stop my cycle commute which is now hitting a year on.

Its perfectly easy to do without a car although I have to admit I notice too many times when having one would really be convienient and offer a bit more freedom (going away for a weekend etc). I don't ever fancy a job where I would have to drive for an hour or two every morning but as I don't have a family etc then I can understand why others have to take the positions but can't move and uproot simply for another job.

Parkey

Amazing how people who never use public transport are always the self-appointed experts as to how terrible it is. Same goes to cycling, I've lost count of the number of people who've told me things like "cycling to work might work well in Holland, but there are hills in the UK". I make a note to thank them for pointing this flaw out to me because when in the past I've cycled up a big hill on the way to work every day I never realised my preferred mode of transport had such a terrible flaw.

There's a subconsious double standard when a lot of people compare their cars with any other form of transport. For example, 90+% of trains in the UK arrive at their destinations with a delay of less than 10 minutes - more often than not a zero. How many peak hour car journeys would that apply to? On the rare occasions when a train is delayed it's proof to these people that railways are fundamentally flawed, whereas if they get caught in, what I've found to be a much more regular occurance, a traffic jam that accounts for a similar delay to their journey they would never dream of making a similar statement about the private car.

Surf-Matt

Train to Bristol - 3.5 hours. Cost - £50 rtn each
Drive to Bristol - 2.25 hours. Cost £40 rtn for up to 5 people.

Train to London - 6 hours - Cost £75 rtn each. Been late on three of the last 5 trips.
Drive to London - 4.5 hours - Cost £55 rtn for up to 5 people. Never late.
Flying to London - approx 3 hours door to door, cost £150 each.

I'm sorry but public transport has a lot of catching up to do, even if fuel has gone mental.

It's also impossible to live a sensible life in a rural area around here without a car - they nearest bus goes into the City (2 miles way) once a day. So we cycle or walk.
Yes it's very hilly but why not just get fitter when cycling?

Parkey

Petrol is not the only per mile cost of motoring.

The RAC reckon the all-in cost of motoring for an average family car is 60p a mile. Apply that figure to a journey and quite a lot of "so expensive" rail and bus fares suddenly seem like a bargain, especially as you don't have to pay to park a train.

As for longer journey times on some journeys by train I personally don't mind. I always gain time from being on a train as opposed to driving because time on a train is useful time when I can work, read a book, etc. Time spent behind the wheel on a motorway is wasted time.

Look, I'm not saying trains or buses are a fit-all solution because that would be stupid. I'm just saying that it's important to make a sensible informed choice for each journey made. People seem to overestimate the virtues of the car ("never late" on a drive into London?)and under estimate for other means of transport.

Surf-Matt

We are never late to London because we leave waaaaay before we need to just in case.

Even at 60p per mile, it's still much cheaper.

Our public transport is pretty poor and very expensive - go to anywhere else (almost) in Europe and see how much better set up they are.

Parkey

I'll let you off, but only because you're in cornwall.

I've mostly lived in Nottingham and Oxford, where public transport is pretty good - approximately 10 times better than motorheads believe it is.

dang65

Surf-Matt wrote:

Train to Bristol - 3.5 hours. Cost - £50 rtn each
Drive to Bristol - 2.25 hours. Cost £40 rtn for up to 5 people.

Train to London - 6 hours - Cost £75 rtn each. Been late on three of the last 5 trips.
Drive to London - 4.5 hours - Cost £55 rtn for up to 5 people. Never late.
Flying to London - approx 3 hours door to door, cost £150 each.

I always think it's a bit unfair to refer to this kind of journey as "public transport". It is public transport, but the real meaning of mass public transport is for local commuting and school journeys. This is where it competes equally with cars (and bikes) and often wins.

I live south of Manchester and used to work in Preston. There was a direct train and very reasonable monthly travel pass (think it worked out about 4 quid a day). The drive was horrific - really busy motorways, full of nutters, often clogged to a standstill - and it was too far to cycle-commute realistically (about 30 miles). Plus, I got some exercise cycling to the station from home and walking from the station to work at the other end.

That's where public transport comes into its own.

Longer journeys are often really expensive, especially when you're paying for a family, and they are usually very crowded and often delayed. And I guess they are the only kind of "public transport" journeys a lot of people ever take, so their perception is that public transport is a nightmare. But long distance train and air travel is really private business - Virgin trains etc. It's not the same thing as the local bus, tram or train which is usually very economical and efficient. Most of the time.

I use bike whenever the journey time is viable, then train for longer but still "local" trips, then car for intercity journeys or family outings. The fact is that those forms of transport don't alternate very well - most people wouldn't cycle between two cities fifty miles apart, trains are prohibitively expensive for family journeys and taking 40 minutes to drive 3 miles in a traffic jam is insanity. So each type has its ideal uses, and public transport is very good at what it's supposed to do.

Surf-Matt

Buses and trains won't take surfboards - so that's them out of the running for me a lot of the time!

Parkey

Public transport should be an integrated system so that it's possible to get to anywhere to anywhere else by making connections between trains, more trains, buses, trams, etc. In the UK outside of London we're nowhere near as good as the rest of Europe at doing this, partly down to this stupid Thatcherite obsession with the idea that public transport must be a business and not a public service, but once you have located and trawled through all the different timetable websites it does work better than most people would expect.

The trick to long distance rail travel is to book early, which usually works fine because going long distance is seldom done on impulse. My girlfriend and I recently went cycling in the Lake District for a week. By booking a month in advance we got ourselves and our bikes there and back from Oxford for £30 return each. Reserved seats, reserved bike spaces, and only one change of train. According to the AA website it took about an hour longer than driving, but which would you prefer? Five hours of being curled up with a book, food and drink watching the countryside go by or four hours of motorway?

Surf-Matt

I'm not totally anti public transport - I'll use a train when possible - and your trip sounds like an ideal use of it.

But for most of my long distance meetings/trips I need to get to clients offices or surf (car essential) or generally explore.

I wish public transport was more useful, but around here, it's genuinely terrible.