Giro: Are guys cheating?

donrhummy

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Cum ... 57100.html

Britain's Steve Cummings (Barloworld)...is angry about dozens of other riders hanging onto team cars and accepting pushes on the climbs.

“It was really bad on the mountain stage in the Dolomites on Sunday,” Cummings told Cycling Weekly.

“On one big climb 30 or 40 guys were well behind on the mountain, we could see them down the road, but they caught us because they were hanging onto team cars and getting massive pushes.”

“They probably wouldn't have made the time cut if they'd ridden without help and should have been thrown out of the race.”

What does everyone here think? Is this cheating, just accepted that everyone does it, or...?

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

At the back of the race, away from the TV cameras, I guess those guys do whatever they have to do to stay in the race. No harm, no foul?

Cheers, Andy

2Fast4Love

Watching Saturdays mountain stage (pretty sure it was then) Sella was very (VERY!) angrily pushing away the clowns that were running alongside him trying to give him an extra "push".

I think it's generally accepted that when the team car is passing drinks etc over there might be a stray hand on the bike for a couple of seconds, and other than that I think Andy covers it quite well there. There would of course be an issue if it meant that one of the riders getting a "big push" on a stage was able to give it a bit extra the following day as a result.

Depends how big the push is basically. On a related point, the "fans" that are running alongside & giving a push would only serve to really irritate the crap out of me. Having to deal with an external force wobbling your centre of gravity all over the shop, while that same external force is screaming away, while you are busting your balls trying to keep the pedals turning up a really steep section.... no thanks!

iainf72

andrewgturnbull wrote:

Hi there.

At the back of the race, away from the TV cameras, I guess those guys do whatever they have to do to stay in the race. No harm, no foul?

See, I know what you're saying BUT where do you stop?

Oh, I couldn't finish without EPO but I wasn't going win.

Rules are rules. I think they should all be enforced the same for everyone. After all, years of looking the other way during infractions has got us into a fine mess, hasn't it?

redddraggon

There's a bit of difference between the stage winners/GC contenders getting a helping hand and the domestiques getting a helping hand (although having that domestique the GC contender might be better off).

I suppose if you are struggling to meet the time cut, getting kicked out for cheating is a risk worth taking.

donrhummy

It may seem harmless for a guy in last place to hold on to make the time cut but it's bad in two ways:

1. Any team going for the GC can effectively use every rider on its team to help their GC guy in tough flat sections, to protect him, to bring him food/water, bring him back to the peloton if he gets dropped.

If that rider timed out instead, they might be open to attacks that wouldn't have succeeded otherwise. That's an important part of the competition and by looking the other way while that domestique hangs on is unfair. (Same goes for guys who are the "train" or leadout for sprinters)

2. Some of those guys hanging on may be in a break the next day and can ruin the chances of a guy (also in that break) who was struggling as much as them but worked super hard to make the time cutoff without using a car. Now the guy that cheated to make the time cutoff, is not only there (one more guy to beat) but is a tad fresher from using a car. That's unfair.

timoid.

donrhummy wrote:

It may seem harmless for a guy in last place to hold on to make the time cut but it's bad in two ways:

1. Any team going for the GC can effectively use every rider on its team to help their GC guy in tough flat sections, to protect him, to bring him food/water, bring him back to the peloton if he gets dropped.

If that rider timed out instead, they might be open to attacks that wouldn't have succeeded otherwise. That's an important part of the competition and by looking the other way while that domestique hangs on is unfair. (Same goes for guys who are the "train" or leadout for sprinters)

2. Some of those guys hanging on may be in a break the next day and can ruin the chances of a guy (also in that break) who was struggling as much as them but worked super hard to make the time cutoff without using a car. Now the guy that cheated to make the time cutoff, is not only there (one more guy to beat) but is a tad fresher from using a car. That's unfair.

What he said.

Getting a helping hand after some misfortune (e.g. Frank Schleck in Amstel last year) is okay as you are only trying to maintain where you were before luck played its part. Handing on to a team car while others suffer is wrong.

drenkrom

Though it is against the rules, hanging onto cars (with a dose of moderation, of course) is usually tolerated in the back of the field. As long as you don't go on to win the stage, like Cavendish did, or stay in contention on GC (that 70 km/h "seat adjustment" for Leipheimer at last year's Tour), the officials are usually lenient. The famous "15-second bottle pass" will get you a stern warning before sanctions are enacted. As long as you don't do it right in front of the red car or derive an immediate advantage from it, commissaires might well turn a blind eye.

guv001

Its only cheating if you get caught...

Richrd2205

iainf72 wrote:

See, I know what you're saying BUT where do you stop?

Oh, I couldn't finish without EPO but I wasn't going win.

Rules are rules. I think they should all be enforced the same for everyone. After all, years of looking the other way during infractions has got us into a fine mess, hasn't it?

Fantastic, erudite quote! Thank you, Iain. I was going to respond, then read this & thought, "why bother?"

jimmythecuckoo

I am with Iain on this one. Cheating whether it bike weights, taking a push, taking a shortcut, or drug use is the same thing. Cheating!

flattythehurdler

2Fast4Love wrote:

Watching Saturdays mountain stage (pretty sure it was then) Sella was very (VERY!) angrily pushing away the clowns that were running alongside him trying to give him an extra "push".

That's 'cos they were pushing on the track marks on his @rse.

jonginge

drenkrom wrote:

As long as you don't do it right in front of the red car or derive an immediate advantage from it, commissaires might well turn a blind eye.

Visconti got a mexican wave of spectator pushes on his last day in pink. It was embarrassing to watch. Did he get penalised? Didn't hear about it if he did

drenkrom

It's hard to sanction a rider for what spectators do. If I was a commissaire, I wouldn't know what to do about it, aside from yelling at the tifosi, which has pretty much been their response in this year's Giro. At least if it's a team car, the line is clear and sanctions can (or rather should) be enacted. You could fine Visonti for getting pushes, but you'll never guess how much time he would've lost without them.

What would you do in a case like that of Visconti?

iainf72

drenkrom wrote:

It's hard to sanction a rider for what spectators do. If I was a commissaire, I wouldn't know what to do about it

It's within the rules to give them a penalty and it has happened before I believe.

If a rider was given a spiked bottle and produced a positive dope test they would be punished even though it was not of their doing.

Mark Alexander

guv001 wrote:

Its only cheating if you get caught...

The ref on a rugby pitch isn't going to stick his had in the scrum when they go down (to catch a hooker punching his opposite number) or into a ruck or mawl.

Is it wrong? yes, but I'm certainly not going to tell them to stop!

cougie

I'm with Cummings on this. If hanging onto cars is fine - why should he flog himself to finish mid pack unassisted - only for other riders to effectively have not ridden the same stage ?

Fair enough if its a mechanical or a few secs whilst they have a chat, but this seems to be a bit worse than that ?

Maybe its worse because people arent doping ?