How not to smell without showering: the merino solution

meanwhile

Maybe this is old news, but merino wool t-shirts, beside being breathable and warm while wet, don't develop an odour from sweat. I've heard different explanations as to why. My best guess is that it's partly because merino dries out well, and partly because the fibres are a very poor matrix for bacterial growth, whether because they are irregular or have some sort of antibacterical property, like wooden chopping boards do).

For evidence that I'm not a loony or lacking in a sense of smell:

http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/ ... php?t=9774

- Plus there's some stuff on Rivendell Bicycle's site and you can find lots more on mountaineering and hiking sites.

You can also buy short underwear made out of the stuff these days, although I haven't yet tried that.

Good merino is expensive, but you could always buy a single shirt and pair of pants and and change when you get to the office - just leave the merino in a (preferably breathable) bag and it will be fresh when you need it again.

cd_gbr337

I use a product called PROWIK, this is a 100% nylon moisture management shirt that contains an antibacterial coating. This product is manufactured in USA - no far east rubbish here. Not sure what the advertising rules on this site are but check out their website: www.dryshirt.co.uk

The company are sole EU distributors of PROWIK and DRYSHIRT products direct from USA, all UV protected.

Products:

PROWIK - Moisture Management comfort fit shirts - long and short sleve. Ideal as baselayer or on own in warm climates. - I use this product for base layer cycling, on its own when warmer for cycling and as a sailing (active sportsboat) base layer - after using this shirt I threw away my Helly Hansen Lifa - No comparison. I use both Short and Long Sleve - love the long sleve provides extra UV protection.

DRYSHIRT - Water Resistant comfort fit shirt - Reppels Water (These shirts can hold water) - Fully Breathable moisture management shirt - Worn on own in warm climates when chances of a shower are present, Sailing, Tennis, Running etc.

PROGUARD - As Prowik but in compression fit - Used in the US for NFL American Football, Baseball base layers. Antibacterial and fully moisture management - Suitable as outerwear (if you have a good physique) and base layer.

To clarify - I am not directly affiliated with DRYSHIRT.CO.UK - I am a member of a sailing team who is sponsored by the company and the owner is a good friend of mine. I have not been asked to put this on here - this is a brief description from myself in response to the above post regarding sweat mangement.

If this post somehow contravines this forums Etiquete/Rules I am happy to remove.

Carl
Risky Sailing Team
www.risky-sailing.co.uk

meanwhile

cd_gbr337 wrote:

I use a product called PROWIK, this is a 100% nylon moisture management shirt that contains an antibacterial coating..

It sounds like interesting technology. I can't find ANY independent reviews though, which is a bit strange for a product in this category. Otoh, the non-smell properties of merino are established beyond doubt. (Although it is true that merino sheep farming destroyed the fertility of much of Spain due to over-farming during the Reconqueista, with historically disastrous results...)

Oh - I should mention that Nikwax make a special wash-in treatment for making wool water resistant. I haven't tried this, but it sounds interesting. Treatments like this typically don't reduce breathability - that comes from adding a membrane to waterproof a garment.

cd_gbr337

You wont be able to find any uk reviews as yet - they have only been in this country since Dec.

However there are numerous discussions about both products here from the guys who use them and have bought them... cant get better than that.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... l=dryshirt

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... &hl=prowik

From the Manufacturer in the US:

The ProwiK moisture management shirts are the perfect choice for those who are looking for the ultimate in comfort and performance. Like no other fabric in the world, ProwiK’s 100% nylon micro fibers move moisture more efficiently and keep you feeling drier while remaining odor free with the finest anti microbial system available. The unique stain release and anti static fibers also allow a comfortable loose fit regardless of the activity you are taking part in. From simple undershirts that keep you cool, dry and comfortable at the office to the hard hitting players in the NFL, no other technical shirt can provide you with the performance that ProwiK now offers.

For outdoor use ProwiK’s UPF 50+ sun protection rating makes it fantastic for outdoor sports or casual wear. Whether fishing, sailing or kayaking, the ProwiK’s comfortable loose fit makes outdoor activities more enjoyable while keeping sweat off your body and the sun off your skin.

Indoor sports also benefit from all that this unique fabric has to offer. Rapid wicking and a breathable fabric keep you feeling more comfortable than any other fabric available. Basketball, weight training, volleyball and many other strenuous indoor sports put the ProwiK in the environment it was designed for- High intensity sports where staying cool is critical.


As i said earlier - this is just a product recomendation - when it comes to cost im not sure if the merino products are more than a prowik - £22.00 I believe (check the site).

I did use a helly hansen Lifa - A product your probably all familiar with - Ive since thrown it out - im a sweaty bugger and it stunk after a few hours use - with this prowik im dry and odour free after my commute. The other benefit is I can throw it in bag do work and put it back on at 5:00 its dry and still smells fresh.

meanwhile

cd_gbr337 wrote:

You wont be able to find any uk reviews as yet - they have only been in this country since Dec.

I didn't look for UK reviews. The best review site for outdoors stuff is www.backpackgeartest.org - it has lots of safety features, especially detailed reviewer histories, that make it very hard for marketing people to influence, and it's extremely comprehensive. I looked there and did a non-UK google search.

However there are numerous discussions about both products here from the guys who use them and have bought them... cant get better than that.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... l=dryshirt

This looks like a thread involving someone - "DryArmour" - associated with Prowik? And someone who is testing the shirt for him? Not nessarily an independent endorsement.

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index. ... &hl=prowik

This involves the same marketing guy working the crowd. People are saying that the shirt handles wicking sweat away well - a trick synthetics have been good for for decades- but I don't see anything to suggest that they share merino's exceptional non-smelliness. People literally wear the same merino T for a couple of weeks while climbing or ultra light back packing - without smelling Ozzy Osbourne's couch.

As i said earlier - this is just a product recomendation - when it comes to cost im not sure if the merino products are more than a prowik - £22.00 I believe (check the site).

Merino definitely isn't cheap!

The Prowik looks interesting. It also looks like a copy of the well known UnderArmour but if it really is good I'm puzzled by the absence of reviews on the usual sites I'd expect to find them. Looking at the technology, I can't see why it should perform differently to UnderArmour - so better sweat wicking than Merino, shorter life span, smellier (but better than some synthetics), not as long lasting, warm while wet, or temperature adaptable. Not as breathable in the everyday sense of letting air flow through the fabric either - wicking is a different characteristic.

DryUV

First of all I want to point out that we have been making compression fit athletic wear for almost 20 years. We pre-date Under Armour by more than a decade. The folks at Under Armour worked out that if you wear a rash guard under a football uniform it makes the abrasion much less of an issue. Brilliant adaptation of a surfing rash guard!

To answer the question though about what makes the ProwiK different from anything else on the market I'll need to give you some back ground. The ProwiK is a LOOSE FIT. Not a tight fit garment which for most athletic endeavors where it is tour outer layer it is much more comfortable and much more breathable. Second, the ProwiK is a 100% nylon product which is much more comfortable and much more durable that polyester. Unfortunately, nylon is also about 7 X more expensive than polyester and that is one of the things that makes the end product on the pricey side. But ProwiK is much more complicated than just being a nylon tee shirt. It has serrated fibres that move moisture more efficiently than any other material made and feels dry, even after moving six times more moisture than the best polyester wanna be. Add to this the amazing Invason 110 anti microbial built into the fabric and an anti static and anti stain property and you have what is fast becoming one of the most popular technical shirts for professional athletes around the world.

Finally, the ProwiK is rated at a whopping UPF 50+ (The highest rating available for UV protection) and you have a unique garment for use inside or outside and you can have the confidence that the odor suppression and sun protection are the best you can buy in a shirt that feels even better than it looks.

If this sounds like an ad it isn't meant to be. Simply ask an end user what the think of the product and we know you will find that the ProwiK has become their favorite shirt for everything from an under shirt below their business suit to a base layer for winter sports and a sun shirt in the tropics.

You may also want to check out the water repellent and breathable DRYSHIRT which is another one of a kind product that is ideal for cool or wet conditions.

For more information in the UK, visit http://www.dryshirt.co.uk

or for manufacturer info stop by:

http://www.dryshirt.com

Best regards,

Mark Michaelsen
Dry, Inc.
AIM - DryArmour
MSN- Mr.Michaelsen
SKYPE PHONE- MarkAMichaelsen
Web: www.DRYSHIRT.com , www.DryArmour.com , www.DryUV.com

meanwhile

DryUV wrote:

If this sounds like an ad it isn't meant to be.

Yes it *is* meant as an ad, and it's an insult to our intelligence to suggest anything else.

Simply ask an end user what the think of the product and we know you will find that the ProwiK has become their favorite shirt for everything from an under shirt below their business suit to a base layer for winter sports and a sun shirt in the tropics.

Sure they will. And the complete absence of positive user reviews on reputable sites - after you've been in business 20 years - is because aliens are interfering with the Internet. Or something like that.

Another point to mention about products like Prowik that use "nano technology" is there are possible risks to the wearer - nanotech is active at the molecular level and that, by definition, means a possible cancer risk. There isn't any requirement or standard for safety testing yet. See e.g. this article on Which:

Scientists from Edinburgh, Manchester and the US carried out the tests which introduced the fibres in the abdominal cavities of mice.

The results, published in the journal Nature Nanotechnology, said exposure led to inflammation and lesions.

The research team said: 'This is of considerable importance, because research and business communities continue to invest heavily in carbon nanotubes for a wide range of products under the assumption that they are no more hazardous than graphite.

‘Our results suggest the need for further research and great caution before introducing such products into the market if long-term harm is to be avoided.’

This wouldn't stop me from buying the stuff if there was a really good reason - compared to the risk of being hit by a car it's nothing - but it is a point to bear in mind. However, given this rather sophisticated risk I'd also prefer to buy from someone with a reasonable grasp of ethics, undoubted intelligence, and an unbiased grip on reality. As opposed to someone who thinks he can spam a forum with irrelevant self-interested posts (reminder: this thread is about the anti-smell properties of merino and their usefulness for commuting; this stuff isn't even *claimed* to provide that) and is silly enough to think that people won't realize an ad is an ad if he ends it with "This isn't an ad."

Oh, and that forum with the totally-independent threads (except they involve your marketing people) about how great your products are - I checked and your company sponsors the forum. Hmm. SailingAnarchy forum. With a corporate sponsor. Hmm. Independent threads - marketing people, sponsorship, independent. Hmm. Must be because it says "Anarchy" - the guy who runs the forum probably has a goatee to go with his MBA. But not a piercing, that'd be too much.

Btw, does this kind of thing actually work in America? If so, it explains a lot about how Dubya got re-elected.

More gems:

Second, the ProwiK is a 100% nylon product which is much more comfortable and much more durable that polyester. Unfortunately, nylon is also about 7 X more expensive than polyester

I.e. it's cheap rather than dirt cheap..

and that is one of the things that makes the end product on the pricey side.

Sure it is.

But ProwiK is much more complicated than just being a nylon tee shirt. It has serrated fibres that move moisture more efficiently than any other material made and feels dry, even after moving six times more moisture than the best polyester wanna be.

..That sentence looks has like it has a definite meaning, but it doesn't. Notice that it doesn't say that the Prowik CAN move six times more moisture (and what does more mean? faster?) or that the polyester doesn't feel dry under the same circumstances.

Add to this the amazing Invason 110 anti microbial built into the fabric and an anti static and anti stain property and you have what is fast becoming one of the most popular technical shirts for professional athletes around the world.

Dear lord... for the sake of your own career, don't write things like this and say "This is is not an ad." I know the US is less subtle than the UK, but even there I'd expect you to have a credibility problem even there after writing this. If you're going to try to subvert the Internet, hire someone who knows what they're doing. This is dreadful - you've turned a very minor opportunity for good PR into a Google searchable Chernobyl.

Finally, the ProwiK is rated at a whopping UPF 50+ (The highest rating available for UV protection)

I don't know how well you understand the UK market, but for most of us fear of getting skin cancer or sunburn through our clothes isn't a big issue.

It's possible that you have a good product, but to me the obnoxiousness of your marketing suggests otherwise.

richardjallen

meanwhile wrote:

Good merino is expensive

I don't think good merino is always expensive and I don't think expensive merino is always good.

My Rapha fixed jersey started getting holes in it after two weeks and after a year it is starting to look thread bear. On the otherhand the merino sweater I got from Tesco for £15 is holding up far better.

I've found merino is far better than synthetics when it comes to smells. I think it is that bacteria cannot grow on the fibres.

meanwhile

richardjallen wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

Good merino is expensive

I don't think good merino is always expensive and I don't think expensive merino is always good.

I'd definitely agree that paying a lot of money never guarantees anything is any good.

My Rapha fixed jersey started getting holes in it after two weeks and after a year it is starting to look thread bear. On the otherhand the merino sweater I got from Tesco for £15 is holding up far better.

£15 for merino??? Are you sure that this isn't a merino blend, probably with some other sort of wool? Even so, if it works well, that's still an incredible deal. (Btw - the big deal with using pure merino for T's doesn't apply to jumpers. Merino fibre is much finer than normal wool. So it can be made non-scratchy for T's and underwear. Spun well it can actually feel like silk.)

About the Rapha - having googled (£75!) that's a really expensive jersey to fall apart in a few weeks! I have M&S merino blend T's that I've used every winter and have lasted 10 years. Did you try complaining to the shop or the maker? They claim to have an excellent warranty and returns policy; you must just have a rare bad 'un. I'd take a look at
http://www.rapha.cc/index.php?page=7

richardjallen

meanwhile wrote:

£15 for merino??? Are you sure that this isn't a merino blend, probably with some other sort of wool? Even so, if it works well, that's still an incredible deal.

I snapped it up when I saw it. The label says Extra Fine Merino. Then another says 100% wool. So I guess it could be a blend. Wouldn't it say if it was blend? It is as I put it, a sweater rather than a bike specific jersey. The wool is slightly fluffy rather than tightly spun like silk as you say.

The Rapha is finely spun but it started getting holes in the shoulders and back and the stitching is undoing. I think I over stated the wear a bit but it has suffered quickly. I did ask them about returns and they seemed obliging but I have not got round to it. I got it a sale though so it was about half price I think.

DryUV

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

If this sounds like an ad it isn't meant to be.

Yes it *is* meant as an ad, and it's an insult to our intelligence to suggest anything else.

No, It is a reply to a question posed above.

Simply ask an end user what the think of the product and we know you will find that the ProwiK has become their favorite shirt for everything from an under shirt below their business suit to a base layer for winter sports and a sun shirt in the tropics.

Sure they will. And the complete absence of positive user reviews on reputable sites - after you've been in business 20 years - is because aliens are interfering with the Internet. Or something like that.

You don't read well do you? The company has been in business for 20 years. The product has been out for less than 18 months and mostly in BETA form as we provided it to professional athletes in anattempt to best refine it prior to distribution.

Another point to mention about products like Prowik that use "nano technology" is there are possible risks to the wearer - nanotech is active at the molecular level and that, by definition, means a possible cancer risk. There isn't any requirement or standard for safety testing yet. See e.g. this article on Which:

Scientists from Edinburgh, Manchester and the US carried out the tests which introduced the fibres in the abdominal cavities of mice.

The results, published in the journal Nature Nanotechnology, said exposure led to inflammation and lesions.

The research team said: 'This is of considerable importance, because research and business communities continue to invest heavily in carbon nanotubes for a wide range of products under the assumption that they are no more hazardous than graphite.

‘Our results suggest the need for further research and great caution before introducing such products into the market if long-term harm is to be avoided.’

This wouldn't stop me from buying the stuff if there was a really good reason - compared to the risk of being hit by a car it's nothing - but it is a point to bear in mind. However, given this rather sophisticated risk I'd also prefer to buy from someone with a reasonable grasp of ethics, undoubted intelligence, and an unbiased grip on reality. As opposed to someone who thinks he can spam a forum with irrelevant self-interested posts (reminder: this thread is about the anti-smell properties of merino and their usefulness for commuting; this stuff isn't even *claimed* to provide that) and is silly enough to think that people won't realize an ad is an ad if he ends it with "This isn't an ad."

Oh, and that forum with the totally-independent threads (except they involve your marketing people) about how great your products are - I checked and your company sponsors the forum. Hmm. SailingAnarchy forum. With a corporate sponsor. Hmm. Independent threads - marketing people, sponsorship, independent. Hmm. Must be because it says "Anarchy" - the guy who runs the forum probably has a goatee to go with his MBA. But not a piercing, that'd be too much.

Btw, does this kind of thing actually work in America? If so, it explains a lot about how Dubya got re-elected.

Spend a little time on the Sailing anarchy website and you'll find that if you are spewing BS you'll last about a nano second there whether you support the sport you love or not.

More gems:

Second, the ProwiK is a 100% nylon product which is much more comfortable and much more durable that polyester. Unfortunately, nylon is also about 7 X more expensive than polyester

I.e. it's cheap rather than dirt cheap..

Please enlighten me at to the cost of a serrated nylon fibre. You seem to know everything.

and that is one of the things that makes the end product on the pricey side.

Sure it is.

But ProwiK is much more complicated than just being a nylon tee shirt. It has serrated fibres that move moisture more efficiently than any other material made and feels dry, even after moving six times more moisture than the best polyester wanna be.

..That sentence looks has like it has a definite meaning, but it doesn't. Notice that it doesn't say that the Prowik CAN move six times more moisture (and what does more mean? faster?) or that the polyester doesn't feel dry under the same circumstances.

Add to this the amazing Invason 110 anti microbial built into the fabric and an anti static and anti stain property and you have what is fast becoming one of the most popular technical shirts for professional athletes around the world.

Dear lord... for the sake of your own career, don't write things like this and say "This is is not an ad." I know the US is less subtle than the UK, but even there I'd expect you to have a credibility problem even there after writing this. If you're going to try to subvert the Internet, hire someone who knows what they're doing. This is dreadful - you've turned a very minor opportunity for good PR into a Google searchable Chernobyl.

Finally, the ProwiK is rated at a whopping UPF 50+ (The highest rating available for UV protection)

I don't know how well you understand the UK market, but for most of us fear of getting skin cancer or sunburn through our clothes isn't a big issue.

I suppose if you never travel to places where you need UPF 50+ then this is not of use to you. A lot of people make trips to Hawaii, the Carribean or the Med and they may have use for this but perhaps you never leave the rock and that's okay too.

It's possible that you have a good product, but to me the obnoxiousness of your marketing suggests otherwise.

While I always like a well versed and articulate reader who is willing to criticize those who make posts in reply to those who have questions about products that we may have to offer, your seeming inability to take the time necessary to investigate our products thoroughly and actually READ* the posts carefully before replying tells me what a troll you probably are.

I didn't ask you or anyone else to buy anything but rather suggested that if you are looking for a high tech product that lacks odor and wicks mositure that our ProwiK is probably worth a look. Our sales of the product are continuing to gain momentum and while I doubt you will ever bother to really check the gear out (I'll send you one for free to try and then give an unbiased report here if you'd like) people who have bought one to try have often called soon after their first experience and ordered several more.

Unless you are willing to take the time try one on our dime and openly report back here I am calling BS on your diatribe...

Balls in your court...

cee

DryUV wrote:

While I always like a well versed and articulate reader who is willing to criticize those who make posts in reply to those who have questions about products that we may have to offer, your seeming inability to take the time necessary to investigate our products thoroughly and actually READ* the posts carefully before replying tells me what a troll you probably are.

I didn't ask you or anyone else to buy anything but rather suggested that if you are looking for a high tech product that lacks odor and wicks mositure that our ProwiK is probably worth a look. Our sales of the product are continuing to gain momentum and while I doubt you will ever bother to really check the gear out (I'll send you one for free to try and then give an unbiased report here if you'd like) people who have bought one to try have often called soon after their first experience and ordered several more.

Unless you are willing to take the time try one on our dime and openly report back here I am calling BS on your diatribe...

Balls in your court...

why not send one to one of the future publishing magazines test teams (hey send a couple) so that the mbuk boys and someone from a road point of view can test it and report frankly and openly in their publications (then ultimately on this forum).

I would rather Doddy reviewed it rather than a forum user i don't know!

Alternatively, send one to me!

DryUV

cee wrote:

DryUV wrote:

While I always like a well versed and articulate reader who is willing to criticize those who make posts in reply to those who have questions about products that we may have to offer, your seeming inability to take the time necessary to investigate our products thoroughly and actually READ* the posts carefully before replying tells me what a troll you probably are.

I didn't ask you or anyone else to buy anything but rather suggested that if you are looking for a high tech product that lacks odor and wicks mositure that our ProwiK is probably worth a look. Our sales of the product are continuing to gain momentum and while I doubt you will ever bother to really check the gear out (I'll send you one for free to try and then give an unbiased report here if you'd like) people who have bought one to try have often called soon after their first experience and ordered several more.

Unless you are willing to take the time try one on our dime and openly report back here I am calling BS on your diatribe...

Balls in your court...

why not send one to one of the future publishing magazines test teams (hey send a couple) so that the mbuk boys and someone from a road point of view can test it and report frankly and openly in their publications (then ultimately on this forum).

I would rather Doddy reviewed it rather than a forum user i don't know!

Alternatively, send one to me!

That is a very good suggestion. I will speak to the UK distributor and make it happen.

Thank you for your reply.

meanwhile

richardjallen wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

£15 for merino??? Are you sure that this isn't a merino blend, probably with some other sort of wool? Even so, if it works well, that's still an incredible deal.

I snapped it up when I saw it. The label says Extra Fine Merino. Then another says 100% wool. So I guess it could be a blend.

No - I think it must be 100% merino. After all merino IS wool; they probably just added the second label for people who don't know what merino is. Bloody good bargain! A merino jumper can easily run £50-£80.

The Rapha is finely spun but it started getting holes in the shoulders and back and the stitching is undoing. I think I over stated the wear a bit but it has suffered quickly. I did ask them about returns and they seemed obliging but I have not got round to it. I got it a sale though so it was about half price I think.

I'd return. Correctly manufactured merino should last decades. (My father was a textiles buyer..)

meanwhile

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

If this sounds like an ad it isn't meant to be.

Yes it *is* meant as an ad, and it's an insult to our intelligence to suggest anything else.

No, It is a reply to a question posed above.

No, it isn't. You might have a good product, but you're not behaving appropriately as a forum user. You're taking the advantage of a marginally relevant thread to push your own product. If you had chosen a thread on which tops wick sweat away most effectively, then posting would have been thoroughly appropriate - as long as you were very careful to be as accurate as possible and to avoid putting an entire ad into a thread and then saying "This is not an ad."

When you come into a forum to post about your own product, you have to be extremely sensitive both to standards of behaviour and the purpose of the thread you're entering. That means, among other things, addressing only those benefits of your product that are relevant to the thread. Because anything else is spam that distracts from the purpose of the thread. This is annoying enough if it just results from poor focus, but when it's commercially motivated it is pure, utter spam and your behaviour is no better than that of those guys who spam you with 50 viagra ads every day.

What you should have posted is something like:

"I have to admit that I'm prejudiced in favour of my own product (if only because I made all the decisions and created what I thought would be the ideal product, based on my needs and values) and I have to admit that it isn't designed to be worn for days at a time like you say merino can be (if you really want to do that...) but it can remove sweat like nobody's business, leaving you drier than most cycling tops when you get to work. We've specced a new, top-class antibacterial to stop sweat smell. If anyone - maybe the thread originator - would like to try it, we'll send out a couple. I hope my posting this hasn't broken forum rules. We hadn't really thought of how our clothes might work for cycle commuting, and we'd be excited to find out. If there's an extra benefit, it's a win-win for everybody."

And nothing else at all. Except for your web address.

You should also have contacted site admin/ad sales as a courtesy - because this is an ad supported site, and even the post above wobbles on the borderline of trying to sneak a free ad. In future, let site owners know what you are doing, offer samples for editorial testing, and ask terms for real ads if the UK bike market looked viable for you would have been both polite and businesslike. Most of all say that you're here and what you're doing and give them the earliest possible opportunity to delete if they think you're "stealing" an ad.

DryUV

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

If this sounds like an ad it isn't meant to be.

Yes it *is* meant as an ad, and it's an insult to our intelligence to suggest anything else.

No, It is a reply to a question posed above.

No, it isn't. You might have a good product, but you're not behaving appropriately as a forum user. You're taking the advantage of a marginally relevant thread to push your own product. If you had chosen a thread on which tops wick sweat away most effectively, then posting would have been thoroughly appropriate - as long as you were very careful to be as accurate as possible and to avoid putting an entire ad into a thread and then saying "This is not an ad."

When you come into a forum to post about your own product, you have to be extremely sensitive both to standards of behaviour and the purpose of the thread you're entering. That means, among other things, addressing only those benefits of your product that are relevant to the thread. Because anything else is spam that distracts from the purpose of the thread. This is annoying enough if it just results from poor focus, but when it's commercially motivated it is pure, utter spam and your behaviour is no better than that of those guys who spam you with 50 viagra ads every day.

What you should have posted is something like:

"I have to admit that I'm prejudiced in favour of my own product (if only because I made all the decisions and created what I thought would be the ideal product, based on my needs and values) and I have to admit that it isn't designed to be worn for days at a time like you say merino can be (if you really want to do that...) but it can remove sweat like nobody's business, leaving you drier than most cycling tops when you get to work. We've specced a new, top-class antibacterial to stop sweat smell, too. If anyone - maybe the thread originator - would like to try it, we'll send out a couple. I hope my posting this hasn't broken forum rules. We hadn't really thought of how our clothes might work for cycle communting, and we'd be excited to find out. If there's an extra benefit, it's a win-win for everybody."

Hey! I like what you posted...very well said indeed. With regard to our gear on cyclists....We have had our products on cyclists for years (Especially the DRYSHIRT and DryGuard) but we are coming out with a "Turtle" shortly that is water repellent and breathable on the front and highly breathable and wicking on the back.

With regard to SPAM..." Spamming is the abuse of electronic messaging systems to indiscriminately send unsolicited bulk messages. " If I were pitching life insurance, Cialis,Viagra or something unrelated to the thread topic then I would agree. Someone dropped me an e-mail message yesterday and asked me to reply to the thread as someone had previously posted something about ProwiK further up the thread.

I still haven't received any information on whether you are willing to try the product free of charge and then write an unbiased review...Interested?

meanwhile

DryUV

MM -

Read my last reply and think. If you're interested, I could send you the another version that I wrote, but decided not to send when I saw that this thread is now the number one google ranked thread for "prowik underarmour" - yes; it will come back to haunt you any time anyone does a product comparison.

As I explained, ***there are appropriate ways*** of mentioning your products on forums, but you didn't follow them. You treated the forum as if it was nothing but a marketing channel when it is anything but that - any forum is a community with a purpose that has to be understood, respected and worked with. Ditto for the thread.

You also don't understand the net at all. You don't realize the extra punishment factor that search engines create for mistakes, that communities will differ, how claims can be subjected to research and replied to (there was some stuff in my abandoned - for the moment - reply about wicking and your fabric that you wouldn't want indexed by google.)

Seriously, you could do much worse than to hire me as a consultant. (This is English for "You couldn't do better.") Read my post explaining what you should have done, and then imagine the effect multiplied by 100, and designed around key phrases so that any likely google search on your product will return good vibes instead of PR disaster. Assuming, that is, that you do have a reasonably good product. You'd benefit, and sites like this would too - you'd go from spamming (read my last post - and also try to imagine what would happen to a site like this if everyone with something in the world to sell behaved as you did, at every opportunity) to adding meaningful, smoothly flowing, appropriate content.

You'd also do well to contact the site owners, as I suggested.

Interested?

Jonathan Coupe

PS Calling the UK "the Rock" was also a mistake. Generally, people would just find this amusing, but given the unpopularity of Americans here at the moment, I'd avoid anything that might be taken as derogatory. Yes, I know I might have provoked you with that comment about Dubya - I'm not the one selling something.

PPS And no, I didn't do this to you to make a pitch. I'd have been much nicer. Otoh, some real hardcore anti commercial activist types - who abound on bike sites - would have been much, much worse. Sailing isn't notably associated with green and anti commercial politics; cycling is.

DryUV

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV

MM -

Read my last reply and think. If you're interested, I could send you the another version that I wrote, but decided not to send when I saw that this thread is now the number one google ranked thread for "prowik underarmour" - yes; it will come back to haunt you any time anyone does a product comparison.

As I explained, ***there are appropriate ways*** of mentioning your products on forums, but you didn't follow them. You treated the forum as if it was nothing but a marketing channel when it is anything but that - any forum is a community with a purpose that has to be understood, respected and worked with. Ditto for the thread.

You also don't understand the net at all. You don't realize the extra punishment factor that search engines create for mistakes, that communities will differ, how claims can be subjected to research and replied to (there was some stuff in my abandoned - for the moment - reply about wicking and your fabric that you wouldn't want indexed by google.)

Seriously, you could do much worse than to hire me as a consultant. (This is English for "You couldn't do better.") Read my post explaining what you should have done, and then imagine the effect multiplied by 100, and designed around key phrases so that any likely google search on your product will return good vibes instead of PR disaster. Assuming, that is, that you do have a reasonably good product. You'd benefit, and sites like this would too - you'd go from spamming (read my last post - and also try to imagine what would happen to a site like this if everyone with something in the world to sell behaved as you did, at every opportunity) to adding meaningful, smoothly flowing, appropriate content.

You'd also do well to contact the site owners, as I suggested.

Interested?

Jonathan Coupe

PS Calling the UK "the Rock" was also a mistake. Generally, people would just find this amusing, but given the unpopularity of Americans here at the moment, I'd avoid anything that might be taken as derogatory. Yes, I know I might have provoked you with that comment about Dubya - I'm not the one selling something.

PPS And no, I didn't do this to you to make a pitch. I'd have been much nicer. Otoh, some real hardcore anti commercial activist types - who abound on bike sites - would have been much, much worse. Sailing isn't notably associated with green and anti commercial politics; cycling is.

Jonathan:

Thanks again for your reply and for putting a name to the posts. I have been working within social networking list serves and forums since 1991. I fully understand Netiquette and how search engines like Google sort and prioritize things and don't mind at all if people search Google, find this thread and do their own due diligence on ProwiK and the other proprietary products we offer. I tend to find that people who buy our apparel are exceptionally well educated and want to only invest in products at the premium end of the apparel spectrum and a lot of them are now trying our gear.

With regard to "The Rock" comment. You have no context for the comment so you would not understand what I meant. I grew up for a good part of my life in Hawaii which is an ultimately small rock. There were a lot of people who would come and visit Hawaii and for the life of them could not understand how we could live there for decades at a time without leaving "the Rock". It never bothered me but we would often pose the question to visitors: "where on Earth would you go on vacation if you live in paradise?" You see, I really do understand why many people don't travel a lot who have found a place they see no reason for leaving. Please also understand that I am the son of a diplomat (1967-1985) and my family and I have lived all over the world including Europe so I have some understanding of the multi cultural world we live in. I was not being insensitive to the UK.

As for the reference to "Dubbya". Trust me, you won't offend anyone who has any sense of International Relations with that comment here in the states.

It is Memorial Day here in the US so this must be kept short as it is a family day here but again, I'll get on the line with the site owners and see if they can arrange for some independent testing. My offer for you sir however stands. I know how good our gear is...why don't you dare to find out and then report your findings here for all the world and search engines to see?

DryUV

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV

MM -

Read my last reply and think. If you're interested, I could send you the another version that I wrote, but decided not to send when I saw that this thread is now the number one google ranked thread for "prowik underarmour" - yes; it will come back to haunt you any time anyone does a product comparison.

As I explained, ***there are appropriate ways*** of mentioning your products on forums, but you didn't follow them. You treated the forum as if it was nothing but a marketing channel when it is anything but that - any forum is a community with a purpose that has to be understood, respected and worked with. Ditto for the thread.

You also don't understand the net at all. You don't realize the extra punishment factor that search engines create for mistakes, that communities will differ, how claims can be subjected to research and replied to (there was some stuff in my abandoned - for the moment - reply about wicking and your fabric that you wouldn't want indexed by google.)

Seriously, you could do much worse than to hire me as a consultant. (This is English for "You couldn't do better.") Read my post explaining what you should have done, and then imagine the effect multiplied by 100, and designed around key phrases so that any likely google search on your product will return good vibes instead of PR disaster. Assuming, that is, that you do have a reasonably good product. You'd benefit, and sites like this would too - you'd go from spamming (read my last post - and also try to imagine what would happen to a site like this if everyone with something in the world to sell behaved as you did, at every opportunity) to adding meaningful, smoothly flowing, appropriate content.

You'd also do well to contact the site owners, as I suggested.

Interested?

Jonathan Coupe

PS Calling the UK "the Rock" was also a mistake. Generally, people would just find this amusing, but given the unpopularity of Americans here at the moment, I'd avoid anything that might be taken as derogatory. Yes, I know I might have provoked you with that comment about Dubya - I'm not the one selling something.

PPS And no, I didn't do this to you to make a pitch. I'd have been much nicer. Otoh, some real hardcore anti commercial activist types - who abound on bike sites - would have been much, much worse. Sailing isn't notably associated with green and anti commercial politics; cycling is.

Jonathan:

Thanks again for your reply and for putting a name to the posts. I have been working within social networking list serves and forums since 1991. I fully understand Netiquette and how search engines like Google sort and prioritize things and don't mind at all if people search Google, find this thread and do their own due diligence on ProwiK and the other proprietary products we offer. I tend to find that people who buy our apparel are exceptionally well educated and want to only invest in products at the premium end of the apparel spectrum and a lot of them are now trying our gear.

With regard to "The Rock" comment. You have no context for the comment so you would not understand what I meant. I grew up for a good part of my life in Hawaii which is an ultimately small rock. There were a lot of people who would come and visit Hawaii and for the life of them could not understand how we could live there for decades at a time without leaving "the Rock". It never bothered me but we would often pose the question to visitors: "where on Earth would you go on vacation if you live in paradise?" You see, I really do understand why many people don't travel a lot who have found a place they see no reason for leaving. Please also understand that I am the son of a diplomat (1967-1985) and my family and I have lived all over the world including Europe so I have some understanding of the multi cultural world we live in. I was not being insensitive to the UK.

As for the reference to "Dubbya". Trust me, you won't offend anyone who has any sense of International Relations with that comment here in the states.

It is Memorial Day here in the US so this must be kept short as it is a family day here but again, I'll get on the line with the site owners and see if they can arrange for some independent testing. My offer for you sir however stands. I know how good our gear is...why don't you dare to find out and then report your findings here for all the world and search engines to see?

meanwhile

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV

With regard to "The Rock" comment. You have no context for the comment so you would not understand what I meant.

Yes, but I think that will be true for most British readers who don't know you personally...

My offer for you sir however stands. I know how good our gear is...why don't you dare to find out and then report your findings here for all the world and search engines to see?

Sure, I'll send you my address. I do think you need to never, ever, repeat the post you made again though. Can you imagine what every thread on this forum would be if every manufacturer jumped into marginally relevant threads and made huge, mostly offtopic, posts? That's the test you should be applying - would the forum break down if everyone else behaved as you did.

I also suspect that you don't understand the point of this thread: lots of wicking synthetic shirts have decent anti-bacterial now (the early ones were terrible) but that still isn't enough for more than short range commuting. What merino does is at a whole other level. It can literally be worn continuously for days of heavy activity - it doesn't just avoid the stink of an early synthetic, it removes the smell that would emanate from your skin. Which is why it is extremely relevant to am showerless commuter, even if they will change shirts daily. Even those synthetic shirts which have already passed the don't-smell-at-all barrier for one day wear don't do this.

I suspect that the difference is that synthetic wicking fabrics wick water, but don't do anything about the fatty liquid yuk that's released under the armpit that actually smells. (Sweat eg on your back is odourless if you're clean.) Merino, otoh, is chemically extremely complex. The fibres have a biologically active protein coating that engages fatty lipids, and I suspect that its this that grabs the fatty sweaty smell stuff and neutralizes it. Wood does a similar trick - wooden chopping boards actually kill bacteria if left long enough. Likewise, merino will suck away and neutralize the fatty armpit gunk that a synthetic will leave there. (Albeit in dehydrated form because of said wicking. Which might make it even smellier.) Merino will do the anti-sweat-smell trick better than any other wool because the fibres are six times smaller - so almost 40 times more fibres to the same area, and hence a lot more anti-sweat protein-bearing surface.

DryUV

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV

With regard to "The Rock" comment. You have no context for the comment so you would not understand what I meant.

Yes, but I think that will be true for most British readers who don't you personally...

My offer for you sir however stands. I know how good our gear is...why don't you dare to find out and then report your findings here for all the world and search engines to see?

Sure, I'll send you my address. I do think you need to never, ever, repeat the post you made again though. Can you imagine what every thread on this forum would be if every manufacturer jumped into marginally relevant threads and made huge, mostly offtopic, posts? That's the test you should be applying - would the forum break down if everyone else behaved as you did.

I also suspect that you don't understand the point of this thread: lots of wicking synthetic shirts have decent anti-bacterial now (the early ones were terrible) but that still isn't enough for more than short range commuting. What merino does is at a whole other level. It can literally be worn continuously for days of heavy activity - it doesn't just avoid the stink of an early synthetic, it removes the smell that would emanate from your skin. Which is why it is extremely relevant to am commuter, even if they will change shirts daily.

I suspect that the difference is that synthetic wicking fabrics wick water, but don't do anything about the fatty liquid yuk that's released under the armpit that actually smells. (Sweat eg on your back is odourless if you're clean.) Merino, otoh, is chemically extremely complex. The fibres have a biologically active protein coating, and I suspect this actually engages with the fatty sweaty smell stuff and neutralizes it. Wood does a similar trick - wooden chopping boards actually kill bacteria if left long enough. Likewise, merino will suck away and neutralize the fatty armpit gunk that a synthetic will leave there. (Albeit in dehydrated form because of said wicking. Which might make it even smellier.) Merino will do the anti-sweat-smell trick better than any other wool because the fibres are six times smaller - so almost 40 times more fibres to the same area, and hence a lot more anti-sweat protein-bearing surface.

Jonathan:

Bravo. Your posts are excellent reading and I learned a lot about Merino wool from your post. We are actually in the process of working out how best to work with Ibex wool products. Any opinion there?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

meanwhile

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV wrote:

meanwhile wrote:

DryUV

Jonathan:

Bravo. Your posts are excellent reading and I learned a lot about Merino wool from your post. We are actually in the process of working out how best to work with Ibex wool products. Any opinion there?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

Ibex have a great reputation; I'd just follow their advice.

If you're buying in merino at any stage, check the wool carefully. There's been a lot of adulteration of high end New Zealand wool with not nearly so good Chinese merino (I'm told). Big danger if you're outsourcing in China.

meanwhile

Re the price of merino - I checked around and the best deal in the UK is a company called Finisterre. They sell an all NZ merino, ethically produced T for £25. Bizarrely they're a surf wear company. I mailed them and asked to contribute to this thread. Chocolate Fish also have a good reputation for value and ethical policy. I'd mail them, but their site is pants and the "contact" button doesn't work. They have a merino T on sale for less than £20. I'm surprised how cheap merino is at the moment, if you avoid the heavily marketed brands.

Some of the big name companies, who do their production in 3rd world sweat shops often using dodgy wool, are obviously selling at incredible mark ups with their £50 T's...

Another UK company, Montane, is doing some interesting things with blends of merino and high wicking synthetics, including bike shorts. Excellent reviews, but like both the makers above, I've not used their merino stuff. (I can say that their pertex windshirts are great though.)

Mithras

Smelling is no bad thing, I smell terribly at work in the hight of summer. Sometimes I smell so bad people don't want me in thier house....cuts reported crime tenfold...... 8)

DryShirt UK

Jonathan and all other post readers.

May i introduce myself as Kevin the owner of DryShirt UK the distributor and retailer of the products in Europe.

Firstly let me apologise for what may be deemed as spamming replies by Dry UV (Mark) to this post.

I was handed a link to the post and thought it best to comment on some of the questions posted, hence the handover to Dry UV who ultimatley have the greatest knowledge on the products.

We are trying to build the brand in Europe at the minute and would be pleased to send you a shirt to review completley FOC without any commitments. Please PM me you address or send it via e-mail to theteam(at)dryshirt.co.uk, and we will get one out to you this week.

I will also contact the site owners tomorrow for a chat.

Regards

Kevin

meanwhile

At the risk of showing that I spend far too much time thinking about sheep, this is an excellent page on why merino is the best baselayer for most conditions - certainly in the UK. The author is a very respected climber and climbing gear expert - staying warm and dry without weight under a wide range of conditions while making huge cardiovascular effort is a life and death issue for this guy. He doesn't have any axes to grind and he knows what Is talking about.

http://www.psychovertical.com/?wool

First let's begin with a single Merino wool fibre... First there is a hydrophilic (water loving) core made of a protein called keratin, which is present in all skin and hair and designed to maintain the homeostasis (a stable metabolic rate) of the body. The core is surrounded by overlapping cuticle scales (like shingles on a house), which are very tough, waterproof and also self-cleaning (when the fibre moves the scales brush against each other) and UV resistant, with most clothes having a high UV factor of UPF50+, important if you're using the fibre to keep out the sun at high altitude...

[Next is a] filmy skin called an epicuticle, which acts as the fibre's waterproof shell, causing water to run off and is the cause of water beading up on wool clothing as if it had been sprayed with DWR...

Probably the most amazing attribute of wool is that the wool isn't dead like plastic and will actively try to maintain your comfort level, dynamically trying to achieve an equilibrium with the surrounding environment, absorbing and desorbing moisture vapour in order to maintain this equilibrium.

The last part is unbeatable in the unpredictable UK weather - merino works when you're too hot or too cold. It's not just for cold weather, as you might have thought. A merino base layer works all the year round - by itself in summer, with a windshell in autumn or spring, and that plus a jumper (or just heavier shell) in winter

Re. the point about not smelling after commuting:

I've worn the top more than any other testy bit of clothing this year, in fact, I've worn it since it arrived in the post a few weeks ago (I haven't washed it yet), both for climbing, working and washing up. One thing I can attest to is its odour resistance, as it's done over five hours worth of running, both in wet and hot weather, a trip to the Alps, a children's party and it still doesn't smell

So there you go. £3 more than the T shirt made out of oil, self cleans, doesn't smell even if you wear it for days (thus potentially revolutionizing the heavy metal scene), adapts to keep you warm or cool as needed.

Finisterre

Hello,

I work for Finisterre, a small UK surf brand, specializing in technical product. We had been asked to get involved on this thread and perhaps shine a little light on merino.

Merino and synthetics, are kind of like a Mac and PC thing, you've got die hards on both sides. We decided to get involved with merino for three chief reasons:

1) Performance
2) Environmental
3) Price

Performance:
In our eyes, performance is all about comfort, if your comfortable, then the product is doing everything else, i.e. breathing, regulating, wicking and drying. People will say that synthetics dry quicker than merino and they do, but it's marginal. The real issue is which of the two materials have the wearer feeling more comfortable and to us, that's going to be merino. Merino although it dries slower, will absorb the moisture into the fibers, thus keeping the wearer feeling drier = more comfort. Whereas synthetics, will wick the moisture and hold it on the surface of the material (feels damp), although it will dry quicker, the time it takes to dry will leave the wearer feeling damp = less comfortable. Merino doesn't smell, it's lovely against the skin (providing you're not allergic) and you'll be more comfortable.

Environmental
Merino is a renewable resource, it's sustainable. When we use merino, we know we are getting our material from a infinite resource, which is overall, better for the environment. Synthetics (unless recycled) are sourced from an oil derivative, which means it's a finite resource and if we're running out of it and it isn't that good for the environment in the first place, then we felt as a company (if we can), that we needed to address this.

Price
Merino is more expensive, so we decided to bring a functionally superior, better for the environment material to more people - to us, it was an opportunity. We've got the finest merino base layers on the market (that's not me saying it, it's the many reviews we've had) and we're selling them at 25 pounds - direct from us.

Hopefully this makes sense, anyone can contact us anytime, we're only small (four guys and dog) and we love the ability to speak to customers direct, anytime.

http://finisterreuk.com/technicalsurfap ... 5-c37.html

Best and keep chasing,

Ernie

meanwhile

Finisterre wrote:

Hello,

I work for Finisterre, a small UK surf brand, specializing in technical product. We had been asked to get involved on this thread and perhaps shine a little light on merino.

I thought it was only fair. I chose Finisterre because they are selling their merino T's for a lot less than the big companies - £25 rather than £50-60, and they seem to have much stricter standards on ethical manufacturing. Chocolate Fish (google them) have a slightly cheaper base layer on their website, but that's a sale special, and contacting them seems impossible, which bothers me with a web business. That said, they have an excellent reputation, from my web searches.

Surf-Matt

Ernie - nice one! Think you bumped into the wife a few days ago.

Hope all is well. I wear my Finisterre base layer every day for cycling (unless it's boiling hot) and it's brilliant

photons

I use a dry wash called 'Lifeventure dry wash', and is available to buy from all good Millet stores .

It' around 5 pounds to buy, it is a liquid gel substance. You just apply it to your body and it will evaporate along with with any bacteria, odours.
It smells very refrshing and clean and on occasions I use it as an alternative to deodarant.

cee

photons wrote:

I use a dry wash called 'Lifeventure dry wash', and is available to buy from all good Millet stores .

It' around 5 pounds to buy, it is a liquid gel substance. You just apply it to your body and it will evaporate along with with any bacteria, odours.
It smells very refrshing and clean and on occasions I use it as an alternative to deodarant.

I use a similar product for cleaning my hands before eating when up in the moooontins and I have sweaty/sheepshooty gloves!

It works a treat!