Stage 8 **spoiler**

kmahony

Go Ricco!

Why was he 20/1 on befair this morning??

owaingibby

Pro Tour Pundit curse for me - why did Bettini come 2nd - :x

Nice sprint anyway.

iainf72

Ricco proper gives me the creeps.

donrhummy

You know everyone (myself included) thinks Ricco is a huge braggart and a guy who talks trash way too much. But in the words of Bruce Lee, "It isn't bragging if you can back it up."

dave_1

really dislike the stage winner from what i have read and his totally dodgy soigneur...is it no reasonable to assume Ricco has no problem with his stock in trade? bad day for the sport IMO when dodgy soigneurs who had doping products he was caught disposing of at the 01 Giro win the day by proxy.

blazing_saddles

Gosh, it's quiet on here.
Certainly Ricco is not a pleasant guy.
He may well never make a United Nation's ambassador, but his bike is talking, too.
As for dodgy soigneurs, fair enough.

However a bit rich to slate an Italian, but worship a Spaniard who cut his teeth with Manolo Saiz and just happens to be one of the very few Liberty Seguros riders who avoided suspension,(non Spanish) or demotion to the lower ranks.(Spanish)
I find it ironic, that the only riders to suffer from OP, where either German or Italian. They were investigated and found to be patently guilty,
All the Spanish riders, however, got a free pass from the judiciary, for lack of evidence. Also dodgy,(a cover-up) in my book.

DaveyL

Remind me, where's Mancebo now?

afx237vi

I can't decide who is the most unlikeable - Ricco or Di Luca. It's a close call, but I think the honour goes to DDL. When he was down the back of the bunch today with 3km to go I actually started cheering, but then oh look, there he is sprinting for the win. Sigh.

blazing_saddles

DaveyL wrote:

Remind me, where's Mancebo now?

Haha! He fell for it, hook line and sinker.

"Paco, they've found Doc Fuentes's stash!"
"Ooooh heck, I'm b**gered. I'd better retire before that French lot give me the boot"......

.......6 months later....

"Paco, it's OK, Judge Serrano's a bit of a ham, but he's shopped the dirt to those foreign feds, now he's stone-walling WADA, so relax..."
"Relax......uuummm......now there's a thought...." :roll:

DaveyL

AG2R to Relax plus half a year out of the game. So he hasn't suffered then? Perhaps you meant "be punished" when you said "suffer"?

blazing_saddles

DaveyL wrote:

AG2R to Relax plus half a year out of the game. So he hasn't suffered then? Perhaps you meant "be punished" when you said "suffer"?

His suffering, was self-inflicted, through either guilt, or fear.
It doesn't equate to punishment by the Spanish federation.

How many Spanish riders were on the OP list, again? How many failed to find contracts, eventually?
The most Spanish rider's experienced, was a trying inconvenience and pay cut.
How many were prosecuted and suffered a sanctioned suspension, like Basso, Ullrich, Scarponi, Jackshe, or Caruso?
Even Sevilla got out from under T Mobile and found a home at Relax.

DaveyL

Indeed, I agree. But you said only Italians and Germans "suffered".

skavanagh.bikeradar

I think we are all suffering.

micron

I think it's great to see potential GC contenders fighting for every stage win, and to see the Italians ripping up their own GT is great. But I'm old school - I guess I prefer to see attacking riders rather than endless blue trains.

iainf72

micron wrote:

I think it's great to see potential GC contenders fighting for every stage win, and to see the Italians ripping up their own GT is great. But I'm old school - I guess I prefer to see attacking riders rather than endless blue trains.

Is there that much difference? Ricco sends Peep-Holy off to soften people up and then off he goes.

And the Italians always rip up there own GT - You need to head well back into the 90's to find a non-Italian winner of the race.

If one of the "blue train" riders attacked everytime the road went up and won solo day after day would you be happy? :P

blazing_saddles

That's a big "if", Iain and the point of Micron's posting.
Distana don't adhere to the rider up the road, solo's to win philosophy, or, as you point out, use another rider/s as a stepping stone.
Kelme were the masters of this tactic.

It's all a matter of method and belief. Bruyneel simply prefers to apply huge pressure through increasing tempo. While it has proved a very successful neutralising tactic, it does dampen attacking flair.
When this happens in a succession of stages, it's not surprising many find it predictable.

Quite correct about the Italian domination of it's own race. Not since Pavel Tonkov, in 1996, has there been a foreign winner. Time for a change.

Ironic though, were it not for a handful of seconds, last year, the same observation would have fit the Tour and American riders.
No foreign winner since the 1990's.

iainf72

Blazing Saddles wrote:

That's a big "if", Iain and the point of Micron's posting.
Distana don't adhere to the rider up the road, solo's to win philosophy, or, as you point out, use another rider/s as a stepping stone.
Kelme were the masters of this tactic.

My point is some seem to be clouded by their hatred of Astana. We've seen LPR do exactly the same tactic in this Giro already. CSC have used it numerous times, Rabobank too.

From a common sense perspective, if you can control the favourites to that degree they deserve to get worked over.

Keith Oates

Must admit Ricco doesn't inspire me and De Luca doesn't either. However at the moment they seem to be doing quite well let's see if they can go the full three weeks without an Hiccup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

micron

Hatred of Astana? Well, I confess I don't much care for their tactics but it's hardly hatred - just a sadness that such neutralising and controlling tactics are so applauded. I think it says a great deal about the state of modern cycling.

Of course the Italians always rip up their own race - probably because, unlike the 'Internationalising' that the TdF undertook in the 70s, the Giro has always been happy to invite all the Italian teams and then a few others, big squads like Linda McCartney And of course it would be great to see Contador attacking and winning solo - this is something we have yet to see from him in a GT. After all, Rasmussen had the measure of him during every single climbing stage in the TdF last year and Contador would not have won had the Chicken not been excluded. I will confess that, having followed Contador's career from before he had his injury, when the Spanish were muttering excitedly about 'the new Indurain', I was disappointed he chose to go to Bruyneel because I saw what that would mean for him and I haven't really seen anything that disproves that. This of course is in my own opinion. It would be excellent to see him fly to an 'old fashioned' solo climbing victory but that is not Bruyneel's way, is it?

As for seeing teams riding on the front of the peloton - this is very different to watching a team ride at high tempo on a climb - but this of course you know, iainf, and are simply being disingenuous about the difference between a team controlling the race on the flatter stages to keep their GC riders out of trouble and a team riding en bloc across the front of a splintered peloton on a climb. There is also a great difference between sending a single rider ahead as a bridge - but again, this is simply obfuscation on your part, as we know. Clearly, we simply prefer different styles of racing - I say I am old school because I have been watching the sport for a long time and prefer an older style of racing. I happen not to like what Bruyneel brings to the sport, that is all.

blazing_saddles

iainf72 wrote:

My point is some seem to be clouded by their hatred of Astana. We've seen LPR do exactly the same tactic in this Giro already. CSC have used it numerous times, Rabobank too.

From a common sense perspective, if you can control the favourites to that degree they deserve to get worked over.

I'd say LPR use a slight variation, in that they spend less overall time at the front, but hit the peloton with a shorter, harder burst. Di Luca also attacked on the penultimate climb, which is slightly different.
Anyhow, that's open to interpretation.
You can't blame any squad for choosing to adopt a successful tactic, as this obviously is.
A tried and tested method. Indurain used it, Armstrong used it, so it's unlikely to get discarded.
Doesn't stop it from producing negative racing, however.
The only possible scenario being if race radios get banned and we revert to the "old days and old ways". Some of we "long in the tooth" guys remember, too well and with much fondness.

As for Astana hatred, it's exactly the same as people hating Ricco, Di Luca or Simoni.
It's often difficult to remain objective when one gets attached or detached to particular teams or riders.
I, for one, am glad they are adding spice to this Italian seasoning. At the same time, I'm trying to sit on the fence, between all this hatred and worship.

iainf72

micron wrote:

This of course is in my own opinion. It would be excellent to see him fly to an 'old fashioned' solo climbing victory but that is not Bruyneel's way, is it?

Could you not say the final stage of Paris-Nice last year was exactly that? Sure, Disco softened them up a bit but he went for it solo and left Rebellin.

I agree Bruyneel's tactics aren't brilliant viewing but that means we want a lower level of tactics for our own amusement.

Also, as Dr Ferrari hints, things like EPO and blood doping favour waiting until the final climb before launching any kind of attack. The way the races happen is a symptom of the preperation.

ricadus

[good to see those exclamation marks back in the bunch]

dave_1

Keith Oates wrote:

Must admit Ricco doesn't inspire me and De Luca doesn't either. However at the moment they seem to be doing quite well let's see if they can go the full three weeks without an Hiccup!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

welcome back Keith...very good to see you on here again...hopefully see you this summer in Wanchai ...I'll be returning, at least temporarily

Keith Oates

Let me know when you'll be there, Dave-1, and I'll try to make it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!