10 Mile TT

huwy

Doing first one tonight any advice ?

simon_e

I did my first last week. I'd suggest:

Try to recce the course, so you know when to expect climbs etc and where the finish will be. Some people like mentally to divide it into sections, work at each chunk as you get there.

Eat early, don't ride on a full stomach.

Try not to go too hard at the beginning, but don't hang about either and find you've got energy spare at the end.

Get as low a position as you can comfortably manage.

Don't kill yourself on the climbs for 1-2mph gain. Instead put any extra effort into downhills, where you'll get a bigger speed gain for the same work (this was told to me by a regular).

Concentrate on breathing well, keeping your cadence steady.

Good luck.

Bronzie

Some good advice there from Simon - also, make sure you warm up properly - need to find a routine that works for you so some experimentation over the coming weeks may be needed.

I tend to warmup starting spinning and gradually go up through the gears until I'm at or near to race pace (just for a few minutes) normally over 30 mins or so, but longer in cooler conditions.

You need to get to the start in good time for your off, but no so long before that you are hanging around getting cold. 2-3 mins before your start should be fine.

Make sure you know where the start, finish and the route goes so you don't have to think too hard during the event.

Pacing is crucial to doing a good time, but it's the sort of thing you have to experiment with to find out how hard you can push without blowing, so don't expect too much from your first outing, but set a goal you can improve on in following weeks.

Jeff Jones

Simon E wrote:

Don't kill yourself on the climbs for 1-2mph gain. Instead put any extra effort into downhills, where you'll get a bigger speed gain for the same work (this was told to me by a regular).

All good advice Simon except this: Putting out an extra 20 watts on an uphill will save you more time than an extra 20 watts on a downhill, because when you're going uphill, less of your power is being used to overcome wind resistance and more of it to overcome gravity. You get more bang for your buck this way.

Of course, you shouldn't go so hard that you blow yourself up :-)

huwy

Thanks for the advice the course is the one being used for the national champs on the 25th, i'll see how my time compares

Jeff Jones

The nationals course is pretty flat, isn't it? You don't need to worry as much about dosing your effort on hills then.

Enjoy it and let us know how you get on.

simon_e

Jeff Jones wrote:

Putting out an extra 20 watts on an uphill will save you more time than an extra 20 watts on a downhill, because when you're going uphill, less of your power is being used to overcome wind resistance and more of it to overcome gravity. You get more bang for your buck this way.

Thanks Jeff, food for thought.

Jeff Jones

Simon E wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

Putting out an extra 20 watts on an uphill will save you more time than an extra 20 watts on a downhill, because when you're going uphill, less of your power is being used to overcome wind resistance and more of it to overcome gravity. You get more bang for your buck this way.

Thanks Jeff, food for thought.

It's because power requirements scale with the cube of speed when air resistance is the dominating "slow down factor" but more linearly when it's uphill, when gravity is. You can model this sort of stuff. It's interesting when you apply it as a pacing strategy on a hilly course.

That said, most riders naturally put out more power on the ups than the downs anyway, and could probably benefit from pushing more on the descents, within reason. But once I get above 45mph, I usually opt for a tuck rather than continue pedalling.

BeaconRuth

Jeff Jones wrote:

That said, most riders naturally put out more power on the ups than the downs anyway, and could probably benefit from pushing more on the descents.............

This is a point I would have made if you hadn't beaten me to it. I think this is why Simon E was given the advice he was given and it's very good advice IMO. Fair enough if you have a powermeter, then you can do what you like in terms of tweaking your power up or down on climbs or descents, but for those who race on feel it is far more important to concentrate on keeping the lid on their effort on climbs, and raising it on the descents. The natural tendency is to try to maintain a steady speed which means people work far too hard to keep their speed up on a hill and ease off the gas far too much when their speed rockets on a descent. The instruction to have a slightly higher power on climbs because of the cubed relationship between power and speed is a complete confusagram unless you have a powermeter to hand.

Ruth

Jeff Jones

BeaconRuth wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

That said, most riders naturally put out more power on the ups than the downs anyway, and could probably benefit from pushing more on the descents.............

This is a point I would have made if you hadn't beaten me to it. I think this is why Simon E was given the advice he was given and it's very good advice IMO. Fair enough if you have a powermeter, then you can do what you like in terms of tweaking your power up or down on climbs or descents, but for those who race on feel it is far more important to concentrate on keeping the lid on their effort on climbs, and raising it on the descents. The natural tendency is to try to maintain a steady speed which means people work far too hard to keep their speed up on a hill and ease off the gas far too much when their speed rockets on a descent. The instruction to have a slightly higher power on climbs because of the cubed relationship between power and speed is a complete confusagram unless you have a powermeter to hand.

Yes you're right there (sorry Simon E!). That advice is sound for a beginner.

It does depend on how you're pacing yourself - by feel or with speedo, a power meter or some other device. Power meters can be counter intuitive sometimes. I don't tend to look at mine much during a race anyway, only afterwards.

I know I ride harder on climbs than the flats and this is reflected in the readout later. e.g. 370W on each hill as opposed to an overall average of 320W. But I know how to judge a climb so I don't go too far into the red at the top and still have enough to crank it up on the descent. Many riders don't do this (hell, I messed it up a couple of weeks ago): they start the climb way too hard and blow at the top which not only costs them right away but also later in the ride.

Anyway Huwy, how did you get on? If it was on the nationals course, you would have had a few top riders there to gauge yourself against. That can be both humbling and inspiring!

huwy

there where some cracking times the plowman craven boys were 20.xx can't remember the seconds ...

Me I made a right fool of myself by missing my start slot and then they wouldn't let me go !
Organiser very nice and has put me on for next week just didn't hear them call my number, oh well live and learn I won't make that mistake again...

musto_skiff

Did my first 10 last night; there were 25mph winds so bit were a bit of a slog.

Managed 27:58.

I was the only person on a standard road bike :shock:

redddraggon

musto_skiff wrote:

Did my first 10 last night; there were 25mph winds so bit were a bit of a slog.

Managed 27:58.

I was the only person on a standard road bike :shock:

Did you manage to get a better time than any on a TT bike?

Jeff Jones

huwy wrote:

there where some cracking times the plowman craven boys were 20.xx can't remember the seconds ...

Me I made a right fool of myself by missing my start slot and then they wouldn't let me go !
Organiser very nice and has put me on for next week just didn't hear them call my number, oh well live and learn I won't make that mistake again...

Doh! Forget the subtleties of pacing, rule number one is don't miss your start.

Don't rely on anyone calling your number, just get to the start area with enough time to spare so that you can see who's going off. Then work out when you'll be off and make sure you're there with a few minutes to spare.

Good luck next week!

musto_skiff

redddraggon wrote:

musto_skiff wrote:

Did my first 10 last night; there were 25mph winds so bit were a bit of a slog.

Managed 27:58.

I was the only person on a standard road bike :shock:

Did you manage to get a better time than any on a TT bike?

I don't know as I gave my number back, got my time and left as I was getting a bit cold in the wind ... I rode out & back and didn't have enough on :-(

It was good fun though to do the race and I will have another go to see how I improve ... one bloke was moaning that he didn't get over 40mph :shock:

huwy

Thanks for the advice all - yep i'll make sure i'm at the start on time next week ! Going to get some riding in before the next one and some interval training.

simon_e

BeaconRuth wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

That said, most riders naturally put out more power on the ups than the downs anyway, and could probably benefit from pushing more on the descents.............

This is a point I would have made if you hadn't beaten me to it. I think this is why Simon E was given the advice he was given and it's very good advice IMO.

Thanks Ruth. I think the advice was intended to guide me away from blowing up on the couple of little climbs on the local course.

I'm not sure I totally understood Jeff's point apparently contradicting it. Jeff, it seems you were saying you gain more by e.g. 20w more effort on a climb than on a downhill. Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure why.

I'm still at the stage of getting a feel for the pace needed (no pooter or HRM), and my legs don't have much power - I know I'll go into the red very soon if I get out of the saddle or push hard, they aren't what they used to be. Instead I'm trying to keep my cadence steady, flicking through a small range of gears with the change of gradient. More (and harder) intervals required for me, I think.

Better luck next weeky huwy. I find it better to arrive early then keep an eye on the numbers and get myself in the queue when I see the chap 3 or 4 minutes ahead going off.

dennisn

This is a little late but... Don't go out and hammer yourself in the day or two before the race. It won't help and will probably slow you down a bit. Take it easy so you're somewhat fresh and don't have that burned out feeling along with heavy and or dead legs.

Dennis Noward

BeaconRuth

Simon E wrote:

Thanks Ruth. I think the advice was intended to guide me away from blowing up on the couple of little climbs on the local course.

Yes, and I hope the advice helped you to avoid blowing up.

I'm not sure I totally understood Jeff's point apparently contradicting it. Jeff, it seems you were saying you gain more by e.g. 20w more effort on a climb than on a downhill. Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure why.

I think you only need to start worrying about what Jeff was saying if you have a powermeter. Occasionally people suggest that the ideal way to ride a TT is at a completely constant power output. But his point is that riding at a constant power output is not in theory the optimum way to ride a TT. In theory you should aim for a slightly higher power on climbs than on descents.

However, the reason this is bad advice for anyone who is riding on feel - without a powermeter - is because everyone always naturally goes MUCH harder on the climbs and tends to back off A LOT on the descents. (You've only got to spend a short time riding with a powermeter to see this very clearly.) So if you aim to go not quite so hard on climbs and as hard as you can on descents, you will probably be getting closer to the optimum. You're very unlikely to completely even-out your power so that it's totally flat, even if you're trying to.

I'm still at the stage of getting a feel for the pace needed (no pooter or HRM), and my legs don't have much power - I know I'll go into the red very soon if I get out of the saddle or push hard, they aren't what they used to be. Instead I'm trying to keep my cadence steady, flicking through a small range of gears with the change of gradient. More (and harder) intervals required for me, I think.

It sounds as though you have the right idea. Good luck.

Ruth

simon_e

BeaconRuth wrote:

I think you only need to start worrying about what Jeff was saying if you have a powermeter. Occasionally people suggest that the ideal way to ride a TT is at a completely constant power output. But his point is that riding at a constant power output is not in theory the optimum way to ride a TT. In theory you should aim for a slightly higher power on climbs than on descents.

Thanks, I think I understand Jeff's comments a little better now. I probably do push a little harder on the hills but am more concerned with not overcooking it anywhere. Over the coming weeks I'll hopefully get to fine tune my effort better as well as developing strength.

Alex_Simmons/RST

BeaconRuth wrote:

However, the reason this is bad advice for anyone who is riding on feel - without a powermeter - is because everyone always naturally goes MUCH harder on the climbs and tends to back off A LOT on the descents. (You've only got to spend a short time riding with a powermeter to see this very clearly.) So if you aim to go not quite so hard on climbs and as hard as you can on descents, you will probably be getting closer to the optimum. You're very unlikely to completely even-out your power so that it's totally flat, even if you're trying to.

This is bang on. One of the first comments I always get from power meter virgins (even though they might be experienced riders) is realising how much they are slacking off whenever the road tilts down a bit (or how ordinary for training riding in a bunch can be).

For riders with power meters, it is entirely possible to model a TT course for wind and terrain and design an optimal pacing strategy based on your mean maximal power for a TT of that duration. But that's gettin' pretty fancy. It works though if you know what you're doing and can apply the strategy relevant for the conditions on the day. Having said that, many riders have an intuitive sense as to pacing which can come though lots of experience.

But in general, the best advice is simply not to go out too hard. The time lost in recovering from too hard a start can never be made up. This is as true for a 3km pursuit as it is for a 100-mile TT (just the period constituting the start is a bit different).

steviemc

I did my first 10 tt last week. It was a club tt and i was one of only 2 people on a standard road bike.Though i did have a set of aero wheels. The time keeper held me in position for the start as i clipped into the pedals. 5 4 3 2 1 go......Oh dear too big a gear...Don't make this mistake :oops: . I wobbled off and and bounced of a club mate :roll: . But i recovered and took off like a scalded cat. I was able to keep the pace going for the 10 ,but i was gasping for water ,my mouth was as dry as a bone. I had my bottle with me but was only able to take a quick gulp. Do any of the experienced tt'ers bother with water on 10 tt? Anyway i was well pleased with my 25:13 , but what an experience. Good luck on your 1st 10 Huwy.....

ds1964

No need to drink on a 10. Try putting your tongue to the roof of your mouth - this helps salivation.

Jeff Jones

Simon E wrote:

I'm not sure I totally understood Jeff's point apparently contradicting it. Jeff, it seems you were saying you gain more by e.g. 20w more effort on a climb than on a downhill. Excuse my ignorance but I'm not sure why.

Firstly, both Ruth and Alex's 'real world' advice is spot on, especially for beginners. But it's a good example of physics contradicting what our own bodies think what's going on.

You do need a power meter to see it in action but it's easy to model using http://analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

Start with a slope of 0 (flat) and a power of 250W and keep all the other variables as default settings. The speed you get is 11.23m/s = 40.43km/h. Change the power to 300W and the speed goes up to 12m/s = 43.2km/h.

Repeat, but change the slope to 0.05 (5% gradient). For 250W, your speed will be 5.61m/s = 20.2km/h. For 300W, your speed will be 6.5m/s = 23.4km/h.

Repeat, but change the slope to -0.05. For 250W, your speed will be 17.69m/s = 63.7km/h. For 300W, your speed will be 18.13m/s = 65.3km/h.

Case 1 (flat) is a 6.8% increase in speed for a 20% increase in power.
Case 2 (hill) is a 15.8% increase in speed for a 20% increase in power.
Case 3 (descent) is mere 2.4% increase in speed for a 20% increase in power.

So although you're increasing the power by the same amount, you get more than twice the 'value' from doing it on an uphill compared to the flat, and very little value for keeping the power up on the descents. Why? Basically because wind resistance is harder to overcome than gravity.

You can use this to your advantage once you've got a bit of experience, but at first it's actually best to go the other way: put a lid on it on the climbs and keep yourself from blowing up. But don't just pedal to the top of the climb, keep pushing until you've got some speed on the descent, if there is one.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Jeff is also right on. Just to show an example, consider the case of an out and back 25-mile TT, with a flat start, one 4% hill and a steady 1% gradient up to the turn around. Tailwind out, headwind on the return.

For a given rider with known Functional Threshold Power and Maximal Aerobic Power (and a few other variables such as their aero drag and rolling resistance characteristics, and the weather conditions on the day), it is possible to solve for the optimal pacing strategy on each segment of such a ride. It is a reasonably complex modelling task but that's what computers are for

Here we can see that 43 seconds advantage can be gained over a steady power pacing strategy.

See sample output of an optimisation model:

This approach will work just as well for long rides, such as Sportives or long TTs as it will for the club 10-mile TT.

the trick is being able to execute such a strategy.