What to look for in a tubeless tyre.

Anonymous
Anonymous Posts: 79,667
edited May 2008 in MTB workshop & tech
After talking with quite a few people, I've decided that next time I change my tyres, I'm going tubeless, using stan's no tubes kit.

I'm looking at getting a continental vertical protection tyre to match the rear, which is currently a standard (cheapo) conti vertical.

But, is there anything I should be aware of regarding sidewalls, or materials when using tubeless conversions?

Comments

  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    I tried going tubeless with standard tyres and found them a nightmare to seat. I've used UST tyres ever since and haven't looked back.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    Hmm. My front tyre at the moment weighs a ton, so ideally, I'm looking to loose a fair amount of weight. Running UST tyres probably wouldn't save much would it?
  • jeffers696
    jeffers696 Posts: 328
    can you use old tyres? or do you have to get new ones when converting for the first time?
    Specailized Enduro 08 - Beast
    OnOne 456
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I can't use my current front tyre, it's slashed to buggery. Without an innertube there's no way it would hold air. I'll be keeping my rear one though.
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    What is your current front tyre and do you know what it weighs?
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    edited May 2008
    If you're going tubeless using sealant then UST tyres are a waste of money and weight.

    What really matters is how tightly the bead fits the rim, slack beads (Panaracer tyres for instance) can be difficult to seat and you run the risk of the tyre rolling off the rim. Use the tyre-choice list on JustRidingAlong to pick a tubeless compatible tyre.

    Side walls can take a while to seal on thin-walled tyres, but they will seal if you follow the Stan's video technique (shake then lay on the side).

    The only real advantage of UST tyres is that they can be easier to seat and they don't need sealant (but that depends on whether you have UST rims too). There really is no substitute for a compressor though, then you'll be able to seat anything and everything :)

    EDIT: Just checked Just Riding Along tyre compatibility list, and they don't rate Intense tyres. Interestingly though, I found Bonty Mud X's far easier to seat than Maxxis High Rollers, and JRA suggest that Maxxis are the best non-tubeless tubless conversion tyre, so it's down to personal experience really!
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    jeffers696 wrote:
    can you use old tyres? or do you have to get new ones when converting for the first time?
    It's best to use new tyres, but only because they usually have better condition beads. If you have a compressor (or a good track-pump, an assistant, and strong arms!), the bead isn't too damaged and the tyre is still a tightish fit on the rim, then there's no reason why you shouldn't convert old tyres. Be ready for a lengthy sealing process though.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    My current front tyre is an old Intense DH, 2.7" and it weighs about 1.5kilo, the innertube is a Torque tube, and weighs nearly 1 kilo. :?

    I won't be replacing my wheels to go UST, I don't see the point. I already have hope pro2 (front) and bulb (rear) hubs, hand built onto Mavic D321 rims. To get a UST system that strong would cost a small fortune.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    S_J_P wrote:
    jeffers696 wrote:
    can you use old tyres? or do you have to get new ones when converting for the first time?
    It's best to use new tyres, but only because they usually have better condition beads. If you have a compressor (or a good track-pump, an assistant, and strong arms!), the bead isn't too damaged and the tyre is still a tightish fit on the rim, then there's no reason why you shouldn't convert old tyres. Be ready for a lengthy sealing process though.
    Well, I got a track pump from Aldi the other day, and I swear I need a crowbar to get the conti on/off the rim, so I think I'm all set then!
    So as soon as I sort my car's MOT, I'm going tubeless.
    Thanks guys.
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    You may struggle with the Aldi trackpump.
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    I've posted this before, but here's my tubeless tips....

    Put the tyre on the rim with a tube in it and inflate to 50psi. Leave it like this for 24hrs to even out any irregularities in the bead.
    Enlarge the inner valve hole and make sure you file the holes rim smooth (prevents bulging of the rimstrip around the valve)
    Wet the rimstrips with soapy water before installing them (helps them seat evenly).
    Make sure the rimstrips tension is even and that there are no narrow areas where it’s pulled tight.
    Make sure the rimstrips edges are even on both sides of the rim and fully seated below the bead lock (use a plastic tyre lever) if possible.
    After mounting the tyre, use more soapy water on the bead and rimstrip again to lubricate it and aid sealing, make sure you get the soap-suds all the way down between the sidewall and rim.
    Banging around the tread of the mounted (but deflated tyre) splays the bead opening aiding sealing.
    Pressing down on the tyre tread above the valve seats that bit of the bead and starts the inflation process going in the right direction.
    A helper, banging the tyre tread to splay the bead whilst inflating can help.
    A ratchet-strap or luggage strap around the tyre circumference when pulled tight helps seat the bead.
    If you haven’t got a compressor, you can initially check the seating of the tyre bead using a CO2 cartridge before the sealant is added (but deflate and get as much CO2 out as you can before adding the sealant)
    Don’t use valve-applicator bottles for sealant for the initial filling, pour the sealant into the partially mounted tyre at the bottom, then rotate the tyre 180º before remounting the bead at the top (prevents sealant loss when remounting).
    Hang the tire, don’t rest it on the ground, whilst inflating or you’ll loose bead-seal at the base.
    Pump like mad using the biggest Track Pump you can lay your hands on!
    Spin the wheel, and then start the shaking process. After each full rotation, lay the wheel horizontally on top of a bucket or box for five minutes to help the bead and sidewalls seal. Repeat at least twice for each side of the wheel.
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    I use UST tyres on non-UST rims fitted with rims strips. The reason I did this is because they're really easy to seat and frankly I didn't have any success with non-UST tyres.

    As for weight, asuming you want something similar to your current tyres, UST High Rollers are about 850g in 2.35 and Minion USTs are about 1270g in 2.5. A saving of about 1.25 kilos per wheel.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    S_J_P, did you copy that from MBUK?
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    That list has been gathered over the last six months of research, and according to Microsoft Word it was first created on 22nd January 2008. Has MBUK published a similar tips-list???

    Most of it came from the Stan's video, the JustRidingAlong information, Joe's No-Flats FAQ's, and Joe's Tech Support (the "don't use CO2 portion) plus some real-life experiences.
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    Here's my tips for putting on a UST tyre. :wink:

    1. Fit tyre
    2. Inflate tyre with track pump
    3. Drink beer

    3's optional but I find it makes the whole experience more rewarding.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • stumpyjon
    stumpyjon Posts: 4,069
    I'd add

    4. don't let 4 year old daughter help (she kept squeezing the tyre :lol: ).

    but she does know the difference between mud tyres and road tyres 8) .
    It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

    I've bought a new bike....ouch - result
    Can I buy a new bike?...No - no result
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    Aha, but you then need to spend £500 on bling-wheels to claw back the 1kg of unsprung excess fat you're carrying :shock:

    Anyhow, I enjoy a challenge :twisted:
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    S_J_P wrote:
    Aha, but you then need to spend £500 on bling-wheels to claw back the 1kg of unsprung excess fat you're carrying :shock:

    Anyhow, I enjoy a challenge :twisted:
    eh?

    I'm pretty sure I'm carrying more than 1Kg of excess fat anyway.
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    S_J_P I think you're view of UST is based on the technology as it was a few years ago.

    The tyres on my hardail weigh 650g (2.1s) and on my Reign 800g each (2.35). Even if I was using tube tyres, for the type of riding I do, I wouldn't go lighter than this because of the risk of sidewall cuts and snakebites.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    As I said, I'm masochistic, I'd still prefer the cheaper, lighter non-UST tyres :shock:

    I couldn't find Maxxis High Roller UST weights (I've just put a standard High Roller on the rear of my bike, tubeless of course :wink: ) but I did find these...

    Pana Fire UST 730g, standard 590g
    Maxxis Ignitor UST 735g, standard 510g

    Okay, so the difference is 280-450g for a pair and not the 1kg I mentioned :oops: but it's still significant, especially as it's unsprung rotating mass where it's impact is greatest.

    Personally, I am wiling to struggle for 30 minutes and save cash and weight, but it's entirely down to personal preference!
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    Not sure at all where you're getting your weights from or whether they are for the same size of tyre.

    Maxxis website quotes the following (all 2.35 size for consistency)

    Ignitor Folding 790g http://www.maxxis.com/products/bicycle/ ... asp?id=305
    Ignitor LUST 785g http://www.maxxis.com/products/bicycle/ ... asp?id=110

    High Roller Folding 810g http://www.maxxis.com/products/bicycle/ ... asp?id=237
    High Roller LUST 890g http://www.maxxis.com/products/bicycle/ ... asp?id=251

    However, there is another consideration, other than the ease of seating. With a UST tyre you don't need anywhere near as much sealant. With a non-UST tyre you have to put in enough to completely coat the inside of the tyre to make it airtight and then leave some for thorn repair. With UST, the tyre is already airtight. I have also had much better experience with sidewall cuts with UST tyres, but that may not be an issue for some depending on where and your style of riding.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    the weights I was quoting came from retail-sites.

    I'm guessing that the UST/tubed tyre weight differential diminishes as you go up in weight and durability so that UST/tubed FR/DH tyres are similar weights, but with UST/XC there's a larger difference.

    Weights are for 2.1" tyres...
    Panaracer Fire UST 730g
    Panaracer Fire tubed 590g
    Panaracer Fire DH 1,020g

    Maxxis High Roller XC 540g
    Maxxis High Roller UST 680g
    Maxxis High Roller DH 1,125g

    As you say, it's down to personal preference based on the type of riding you do! the weight saving by going tubeless is never going to make that much difference, as the weight you save on the tube is usually offset by the 100ml sealant you add. I'd never thought about the fact that airtight UST's would need less sealant though :oops:

    At the end of the day, standard tyres with tubes, standard tyres with sealant, and UST tyres without sealant are all very similar weights. I still think that (for XC and lightweights at least :wink: ) the cost/weight penalty of UST's with sealant isn't worth it, but if you suffer with sidewall cuts and already run a heavyweight tyre then I can see why the more durable construction of UST's coupled with sealant would work well and be as light as a DH/FR tubed tyre.
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    Panaracers UST tyres ahve been around for years and are heavy. Those still investing in UST (Michelin, Maxxis, Schwalbe for example) are producing tyres closer and closer to standard tyre weights. They will never be quite as light because they need an extra layer to make them airtight. My point however is don't base your judgements on old tech UST.

    LOL at "already run a heavyweight tyre" - 785g 2.35 is not a heavyweight tyre - 2.7 Minion dual plies are a heavyweight tyre at 1380g and they're a tube tyre :wink:
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • artillerydave
    artillerydave Posts: 715
    Splasher wrote:
    , there is another consideration, other than the ease of seating. With a UST tyre you don't need anywhere near as much sealant. With a non-UST tyre you have to put in enough to completely coat the inside of the tyre to make it airtight and then leave some for thorn repair. With UST, the tyre is already airtight. I have also had much better experience with sidewall cuts with UST tyres, but that may not be an issue for some depending on where and your style of riding.

    Splasher makes good sense here, UST offers a benefit over and above standard tyres in my opinion, don't forget UST tyres are "designed" to be run tubeless. All people I have known who have had trouble trying to convert or with problems once converted have been running on standard converted tyres not UST ones. only problem with UST tyres is some are a bit@h to get on your rims but that is all. well worth the extra few quid and grams in my opinion.
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    I think I may be trying a UST tyre the next time I switch :?

    I've run Bonty Mud X TR's (so called tubeless ready tyres) over the winter (550g an end), and have now changed my rear to a High Roller 2.1 (540g) but I've been debating what to put on the front. A UST of some description (but not a Panny :wink: ) may well be the way I'll go 8)
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    I think I may be trying a UST tyre the next time I switch :?

    I've run Bonty Mud X TR's (so called tubeless ready tyres) over the winter (550g an end), and have now changed my rear to a High Roller 2.1 (540g) but I've been debating what to put on the front. A UST of some description (but not a Panny :wink: ) may well be the way I'll go 8)
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    S_J_P,

    The thing about tubeless seems to me is that everyone's needs and experiences are different so you may find you don't get on with UST. Obviously my experiences with UST are good and I just wanted to communicate that for the benefit of the original question because I think most people don't realise that they've been improving UST tyres quite a lot. But I'm not trying to change people away from what they're happy with, just give information that helps them choose.

    There are still drawbacks with UST, and the biggest is that there is nowhere near the choice of tyre patterns, sizes and compounds in UST as there are in standard, and the choice is even smaller if you discount older heavier UST designs.

    The Maxxis LUST tyres are pretty good in 2.1 - Ignitor, High Roller, Larsen TT, CrossMark and Medusa. I use a Larsen TT on the back and an Ignitor on the front of my hardtail. On the Reign, I run a pair of 2.35 Ignitors.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."
  • S_J_P
    S_J_P Posts: 908
    I've just fitted an Ignitor LUST to the front wheel, and what a difference from the standard High Roller on the back which involved cursing, sore arms, and finally a compressor from work to get the darned thing seated :?

    The Ignitor LUST went on without levers, a dab of soapy water to the sides, valve-core still in place, and two single-handed pumps of the track pump later (holding the wheel in the other) it's seated and beginning to inflate :shock:

    It was even easier than the tubeless-ready Bonty Mud X's I'd been running over the winter which were my introduction to tubeless set-ups.

    Thanks for your input Splasher, the extra £5 and a few grammes for UST tyres is definitely worth eliminating the hassle of seating standard tyres :D

    I'm now off for the beer you suggested 8)
  • Splasher
    Splasher Posts: 1,528
    You're more than welcome, it's always a pleasure to help.
    "Internet Forums - an amazing world where outright falsehoods become cyber-facts with a few witty key taps and a carefully placed emoticon."