Where the heck can my kids cycle?

CrookedCucumber

Somebody must have some idea about this...

My kids are 7 and 9 years old. Both love cycling and are extremely fit. They ride what are essentially adult-sized bikes and are faster than I am, at least in a sprint But neither is mature enough to cycle on the roads, especially the kind of roads near our house (I live next to the A41).

There are a few desultory bridleways in the area, but none longer than about a half-mile and all require a car journey to get to. We've made outings to places where there are dedicated cycle trails, but it's a bit of a chore, to be honest.

So where/how do kids cycle when they are too old for the park and too young for the roads?

Any ideas gratefully accepted.

redddraggon

Take them MTBing?

CrookedCucumber

redddraggon wrote:

Take them MTBing?

That would be good. Where I live (Hertfordshire) it's mostly farmland, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of opportunity for informal off-road riding (unless you cheat and ride on footpaths). But there might be private moutain biking areas that would be suitable for kids. Does anybody know of any?

As an aside, I walked through Ashridge park (National Trust property, I believe) at the weekend, and I was absolutely stunned by the number of families that were cycling on the footpaths. Even though I'm a keen hiker, people cycling on footpaths doesn't usually bother me; but this was madness -- you could hardly walk for bikes.

Now I don't know if this density of bike traffic was because people are lazy and want to cycle somewhere nice five minutes from a car park; or if there really is a lamentable shortage of safe cycling elsewhere in Herts.

graham_g

A bit of route scoping should easily find you a nice quiet road route taking in peaceful country lanes etc. they'll be fine with close supervision. I'd suggest using the route finder on this website or others such as map my ride; they all have keyword searches so you'll see the ones marked 'low-traffic' 'scenic' etc. etc.

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

Graham G wrote:

A bit of route scoping should easily find you a nice quiet road route taking in peaceful country lanes etc. they'll be fine with close supervision. I'd suggest using the route finder on this website or others such as map my ride; they all have keyword searches so you'll see the ones marked 'low-traffic' 'scenic' etc. etc.

Seconded. Kids can ride on roads safely enough with a bit of planning and careful supervision. There was an article on this in the last edition of the CTC magazine if I remember rightly...

CrookedCucumber

Thanks, but I've tried that. The problem is that my kids just aren't ready for roads, even quiet ones. There are no roads in my area that are free of traffic. There are many, many roads where we get _little_ traffic. But the occasional car we do see is usually hurtling along at 50mph on the wrong side of the road. In fact, most of the roads in my area apart from the A41 aren't even wide enough to have sides, properly speaking.

The problem is that the kids tend to panic in the event of a hazard. They don't yet have any real understanding of the difference between real and perceived threats. So when a car comes belting past, even if it's giving us plenty of room, they either fling themselves into a ditch or swerve into the middle of the road. I tried it at the weekend on the very quiet roads around Aldbury and I aged about 20 years

I'd be willing to drive some place where I could be sure that cars where both (a) rare and (b) generally slow-moving. But without first-hand local knowledge it's hard to find such places.

It's unfortunate that my kids' physical development is so far in excess of their emotional development. We used to go to places like the Ebury way, which is extremely safe. But a four mile round trip is not much of a challenge when you can pedal at 20mph. My daughter is only 9, but she's 5'6" tall and, owing to years of hiking, has the leg strength of a horse. But she still acts like a 9-year-old. It's irritating that she's too young even for the Local Authority's cycle proficiency courses, which might give her a bit of road sense.

I'm sure that in a couple of years this problem will sort itself out. In the meantime, every time I go out on my bike I get earache because the kids can't come with me.

Eat My Dust

I cycled from Watford to Dunstable yesterday and most of this was on country lanes. Apart from other cyclists and a few horses, there was very little traffic (on the lane parts anyway).

Maybe you're being a bit over cautious (which I understand) but I was out cycling for miles on end when I was 9 years old.

giant_man

CrookedCucumber wrote:

Somebody must have some idea about this...

My kids are 7 and 9 years old. Both love cycling and are extremely fit. They ride what are essentially adult-sized bikes and are faster than I am, at least in a sprint But neither is mature enough to cycle on the roads, especially the kind of roads near our house (I live next to the A41).

There are a few desultory bridleways in the area, but none longer than about a half-mile and all require a car journey to get to. We've made outings to places where there are dedicated cycle trails, but it's a bit of a chore, to be honest.

So where/how do kids cycle when they are too old for the park and too young for the roads?

Any ideas gratefully accepted.

Well if you're in Herts, it might be worth a trip out to Epping Forest, where they can do all the mountain biking they want.

CrookedCucumber

giant mancp wrote:

CrookedCucumber wrote:

Somebody must have some idea about this...

My kids are 7 and 9 years old. Both love cycling and are extremely fit. They ride what are essentially adult-sized bikes and are faster than I am, at least in a sprint But neither is mature enough to cycle on the roads, especially the kind of roads near our house (I live next to the A41).

There are a few desultory bridleways in the area, but none longer than about a half-mile and all require a car journey to get to. We've made outings to places where there are dedicated cycle trails, but it's a bit of a chore, to be honest.

So where/how do kids cycle when they are too old for the park and too young for the roads?

Any ideas gratefully accepted.

Well if you're in Herts, it might be worth a trip out to Epping Forest, where they can do all the mountain biking they want.

Thanks for the tip

Belv

This link might uncover some cycle paths near you:

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/default.asp? ... 9651611859

Just put your postcode in the box on the right hand side.

Parkey

If you fancy a bit of a drive up to Derbyshire I can recommend the High Peak, Tissington and Mannifold trails. All three are former railways that have been converted into cycle tracks and are traffic free.

andy_wrx

A tandem/triplet ?

cee

andy_wrx wrote:

A tandem/triplet ?

and seeing as they can out gun you on the sprints, maybe you can take it easy

DavidTQ

CrookedCucumber wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Take them MTBing?

That would be good. Where I live (Hertfordshire) it's mostly farmland, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of opportunity for informal off-road riding (unless you cheat and ride on footpaths). But there might be private moutain biking areas that would be suitable for kids. Does anybody know of any?

As an aside, I walked through Ashridge park (National Trust property, I believe) at the weekend, and I was absolutely stunned by the number of families that were cycling on the footpaths. Even though I'm a keen hiker, people cycling on footpaths doesn't usually bother me; but this was madness -- you could hardly walk for bikes.

Now I don't know if this density of bike traffic was because people are lazy and want to cycle somewhere nice five minutes from a car park; or if there really is a lamentable shortage of safe cycling elsewhere in Herts.

Very likely they were completely in their right to be cycling on those footpaths, as I understand it cycling on pavements is only forbidden when they run alongside a road or there is a specific byelaw.

another jacko

Cycling on the roads, even main roads, is probably nowhere near as dangerous as you think it is, even for kids. Certainly you can relax more off road, but you should persevere with road riding too. If you wear bright clothing and ride behind and slightly out from your kids, cars will have to go round you, giving the kids wobble room ahead of you until they get used to traffic. You can make the judgements at road junctions etc. The earlier they start on the road, under your supervision, the earlier they will develop road sense and be able to do it safely and independently. Perhaps you should also reduce the emphasis on speed until they've got the hang of road safety.

CrookedCucumber

another jacko wrote:

Cycling on the roads, even main roads, is probably nowhere near as dangerous as you think it is, even for kids. Certainly you can relax more off road, but you should persevere with road riding too. If you wear bright clothing and ride behind and slightly out from your kids, cars will have to go round you, giving the kids wobble room ahead of you until they get used to traffic. You can make the judgements at road junctions etc. The earlier they start on the road, under your supervision, the earlier they will develop road sense and be able to do it safely and independently. Perhaps you should also reduce the emphasis on speed until they've got the hang of road safety.

Yeah. I might have to disconnect the front derailleur I take your point, and I am very keen to get my kids into a position where they can ride in moderate safety on roads. The problem is that they are overwhelmingly enthusiastic about going places, and that enthusiasm overwhelms their willingness to pay any attention to their dull, pedantic father and his irritating rules and restrictions.

So, for example, if they want to turn right they'll cheerfully stick an arm out in a kind of signal and immediately swerve right across the road. It doesn't matter how many times I tell them that this is not safe, and that cars can't stop on a sixpence whenever they see a cyclist signal to turn. My kids still have difficulty distinguishing left and right when they're not fully concentrating, to be honest.

There's a problem of maturity here, I think. My kids have no understanding of danger yet, so they can't really tell the difference between my telling them to keep to the left, and my telling them not to talk with their mouths full. It's all just Dad-shit to them

Oh, well.

CrookedCucumber

DavidTQ wrote:

CrookedCucumber wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Take them MTBing?

That would be good. Where I live (Hertfordshire) it's mostly farmland, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of opportunity for informal off-road riding (unless you cheat and ride on footpaths). But there might be private moutain biking areas that would be suitable for kids. Does anybody know of any?

As an aside, I walked through Ashridge park (National Trust property, I believe) at the weekend, and I was absolutely stunned by the number of families that were cycling on the footpaths. Even though I'm a keen hiker, people cycling on footpaths doesn't usually bother me; but this was madness -- you could hardly walk for bikes.

Now I don't know if this density of bike traffic was because people are lazy and want to cycle somewhere nice five minutes from a car park; or if there really is a lamentable shortage of safe cycling elsewhere in Herts.

Very likely they were completely in their right to be cycling on those footpaths, as I understand it cycling on pavements is only forbidden when they run alongside a road or there is a specific byelaw.

Well, I think you're right in that it's not specifically a criminal offence to cycle on footpaths on National Trust land in general. But since the estate office quite clearly says that cycling is forbidden except where there are specific legal rights (e.g., on the bridleways), then it amounts to a civil trespass at least.

Not that I mind, of course. I'd far rather that people let their kids cycle on footpaths than on the A41. But on sunny Sundays the footpaths around Ashridge are like a High Street, and it is a little dodgy to cycle on them.

andrewc3142

Aren't you fairly close to the Grand Union Canal? Tow paths are good with kids that age. We're lucky in that we have a canal only about 5 mins away on a quiet road. Yesterday we all did about 20 miles to the canal centre (ice creams!) and back. Mine are 5 and 8 (over about 10 miles it's easier for now to put the younger one on the back of the tandem with me).

Not only are tow paths quiet and safe but they also give the opportunity to get really, really muddy after a bit of rain.

dsmiff

I take both of my kids on the road regularly (6 and 9); did 20 miles with them both on Monday on mainly country roads.

If the junction or turn looks too difficult or busy or I can’t see ahead we get off and walk.

Turning right is pretty dangerous and is usually preceded with me screaming at the top of my voice making sure they do exactly as I say!!!!

CrookedCucumber

andrewc3142 wrote:

Aren't you fairly close to the Grand Union Canal? Tow paths are good with kids that age. We're lucky in that we have a canal only about 5 mins away on a quiet road. Yesterday we all did about 20 miles to the canal centre (ice creams!) and back. Mine are 5 and 8 (over about 10 miles it's easier for now to put the younger one on the back of the tandem with me).

As it happens, the Grand Union Canal is almost at the bottom of our garden. And I'll certainly look into this possibility. It would be a compelling idea if my little boy were more, well, sensible Sadly, he's the kind that would cycle two inches from the water's edge just to wind me up. But I'll certainly think about it. Thanks.

BUICK

I don't know if this is an overly obvious question, but have you looked into club activities local to you? I know that just a few miles from where I live there's a purpose built track with a thriving scheme for kids to ride, race and develop skills. I wouldn't have known about it if I hadn't been earnestly searching for information on local clubs for myself!!

andrewc3142

Sadly, he's the kind that would cycle two inches from the water's edge just to wind me up.

That's just kids generally. A potential veto on ice creams soon sorts that one out. Or else they fall in and learn from experience.

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

dsmiff wrote:

I take both of my kids on the road regularly (6 and 9); did 20 miles with them both on Monday on mainly country roads.

If the junction or turn looks too difficult or busy or I can’t see ahead we get off and walk.

Turning right is pretty dangerous and is usually preceded with me screaming at the top of my voice making sure they do exactly as I say!!!!

Very familiar. RIGHT this is a BUSY BIT. Do EXACTLY as I say WHEN I say it... reeaady... ok. GO!! NOW!!

scapaslow

I think that safety is of paramount importance at the moment for you so you need to stay off road and put up with the car journey to get to a safe starting point. In time they will develop road sense.
I have a 7 year old and would not let him anywhere near an open road with cars - he is just not sensible enough yet. This means we have to walk the bike across busy roads to get to a cycle path and put up with dogs and their owners.
Maybe there is a tarmac ex-railway line nearby where you can get up some speed? Any track riding near you?
I'm considering getting a childback tandem to take the younger one out on the roads. Problem is the middle one (12 years) doesn't have that much road sense either, especially with right turns. I'd like a tandem that can cope with a decent range of height differences, don't know if they exist - but the ones i've seen eg. SJS cycles are expensive.

At some point though you have to let go a bit and trust them. Easier said than done i know.

andrewc3142

For tandems, the Orbit Libra is a good choice for a general purpose machine. We got ours from JD Cycles, delivered in about 2 days.

The back is really adjustable. Small enough at the minimum to take a 6 year old (my youngest is 5 years 11 months and just fits), but can also take my wife (about 5' 3"). Cheaper in the long run than a childback.

At 5' 10" it's reasonably comfortable for me up front.

Not exactly a racer but does the job well. Rack for luggage, etc.

Best of all it gives the kids a chance to get used to riding on the road whilst making longer trips possible.

At that age it has cred as well, although whether that will survive into their teens is doubtful.

Mark Appleton

Just wondering what parents made of Cycle England's survey and call for more schools to take up cycle skills training, details of which we published yesterday.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/childhood-cycling-in-steep-decline-16130

Reading this thread it sounds as if, while instilling a good degree of road sense in kids is an issue, the biggest one is the sheer speed and volume of traffic in the UK and the paucity of our cycling infrastructure.

So where would parents rather see their taxes spent? On cycling tuition in school or on driver education and cycling infrastructure on the basis that, when kids do take to the roads, they are both physically more protected and there is more responsibility on drivers to be aware and steer clear of them.

andrewc3142

Partly speed of traffic, etc. But other factors as well: in general, I think we are sometimes too protective and don't allow kids to learn (albeit in a controlled environment); also, it is to do with how confident the parents are.

For my 9th birthday I got a shiny new green Elswick Hopper and day one got lost, ending up on dual carriageways, busy A roads, etc around East London. Good thing my parents never found out, really. But from then my bike was my main means of transport and, touch wood, 40 years later I've yet to fall off or have any close shaves on-road.

As regards parents, not meant in any way as a criticism, but my wife cycles a lot but isn't that confident, for example she wouldn't commute into Central London. She often takes the kids out to the park, etc but never, ever on the road. However, I take the oldest (now 8 1/2) on even very busy roads and have done since he was just 7. He rides slightly ahead and I ride behind and outside, generally about 10-15 mph. I have no problem asserting the primary position and if this slows down the cars from time to time I don't lose any sleep about it. I smile at drivers, thank them for being courteous and 99.9% smile back and give us lots of time and space. He knows (and uses) all the hand signals, what road position to adopt and I teach him where to look (including behind), how to turn right, likely dangers (car doors, turnings, driveways, etc, etc). No problems at all.

I'll do the same with his brother in a year or so.

Perhaps at least some of the emphasis should be on teaching parents how to cycle confidently and aware of what's going on around them. If they are in the least bit worried about dealing with traffic themselves it's unlikely they can take kids out safely.

CrookedCucumber

I think children vary enormously in their maturity.

I remember that when I was seven years old I cycled off with friends, often many miles from home (this was decades ago, of course). Partly this was considered normal practice because, in the time and place I grew up there was hardly any traffic. But partly, I think, it was because was children were brought up to be independent from a much younger age.

And that, in turn, was because it was _safer_ for children to be independent. My kids can't even walk to the park or to school by themselves, because they have to cross a ten-lane road to get there. They can't go to the shop and get a pint of milk because even the nearest shop is too far to walk. Until recently, at school they were surrounded by a ten-foot fence and security cameras (but not any more -- we've changed schools )

In short, children (my children, at least) have little opportunity to exercise independent judgement, because we live in a society that is so controlling. It's less noticeable where we live now, in Herts, than it was in central London, thank heavens. But it's still bad. Deprived of any reason for independence, children are very slow to learn the good sense needed to be independent.

So, while I respect the choices of parents who are prepared to let their kids cycle on roads under close supervision, I know that mine aren't ready for this. I'm happy that there are at least a few other people who have posted similar views, so I know I'm not completely out on a limb here

So at present I am resigned to taking my kids in the car to places where they can cycle without the risk that their poor judgement will get them killed.

That does the problem of getting four, full-sized bikes on my car, however...

LingfieldXC

I ws out cycling on busy b roads at the age of 8 on my own. Then again we live in the country and so I had been cycling behind my parents since 5. I think there comes a point when you just have to bite the bit and just age 20 years every time you go out. The thing is they will never learn if they don't get the experience.
Perhaps you could plan a trip to somewhere quieter where you can teach them or maybe even get somone else to teach them for you. You know how kids are when learning from their parents.
Other than that I think a club would be a good idea where they will be lead around by others.