Wheels - please explain

Peakraider

I ride a Planet-X carbon bike.

People keep telling me I should upgrade the wheels.

Can someone give me a real justification for why this would make a difference? I know it is a gospel truth that wheels are the most important part of the bike, etc, etc.

Just not sure I understand why exactly.

I was also told yesterday that losing weight on the bits that rotate is far more valuable than losing weight on anything else.

Is there genuine reason, in terms of physics, why this is true?

Would I really notice the difference? And, if so, any tips on what to look for if I were to upgrade?

Thanks

synchronicity

The theory is that saving rotating weight is more important is true.

Because the rotating part has to be accelerated forward as well as revolved around its axis. Maybe someone else can explain it better, as I'm still a bit tipsy... :oops:

The trouble with going to ligher wheels is that you MAJORLY sacrifice durability. It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

I have to admit that when I first rode my dream bike with zip 303 tubulars back in 2001 I was somewhat diappointed. The difference wasn't as much as I expected. It is a subtle thing, yes it is noticeable, but yes it is also majorly hyped.

But if you're happy with what you've got, why would you sucumb to mere peer pressure? :?

Peakraider

synchronicity wrote:

But if you're happy with what you've got, why would you sucumb to mere peer pressure? :?

Good question. My answer is that if I really thought it would make a difference, I'd spend this 'bike dough' that is burning a hole in my pocket. But perhaps I should spend it on something else.

The answer to the rotation question seems plausible. Thanks.

gkerr4

Peakraider wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

But if you're happy with what you've got, why would you sucumb to mere peer pressure? :?

Good question. My answer is that if I really thought it would make a difference, I'd spend this 'bike dough' that is burning a hole in my pocket. But perhaps I should spend it on something else.

The answer to the rotation question seems plausible. Thanks.

i'd say that if you have bike dough buring a hole in your pocket then wheels are the way to go!!

I'd disagree with the statement that losng weight reduces durability though - i have Campag Eurus wheels on my new bike and while they are far lighter (>500g) than the R561s i have on my other bike - they are (or seem) much much stronger & stiffer than the old shimano's too

Peakraider

gkerr4 wrote:

Peakraider wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

But if you're happy with what you've got, why would you sucumb to mere peer pressure? :?

Good question. My answer is that if I really thought it would make a difference, I'd spend this 'bike dough' that is burning a hole in my pocket. But perhaps I should spend it on something else.

The answer to the rotation question seems plausible. Thanks.

i'd say that if you have bike dough buring a hole in your pocket then wheels are the way to go!!

I'd disagree with the statement that losng weight reduces durability though - i have Campag Eurus wheels on my new bike and while they are far lighter (>500g) than the R561s i have on my other bike - they are (or seem) much much stronger & stiffer than the old shimano's too

Probably a basic question... but would campag wheels work with Shimano?

redddraggon

Peakraider wrote:

Probably a basic question... but would campag wheels work with Shimano?

Yes, if you get them with the correct freehub.

gkerr4

yes - as above - campag make 'shimano' compatible freehubs - although they are getting difficult to get hold of.

Fulcrum wheels are made by campag too - I was wondering if fulcrum were going to be shimano / campag freehubs while the campag wheels became 'campag only' - but this is pure speculation on my part.

wildmoustache

I'm in the fortunate position of owning a "wheelery" ... that is, a room in my house in which there is usually 4,5,6, or even 7 sets of bicycle wheels, though a rationalisation programme recently has seen some departures.

This has allowed me to test the differences between wheels using the same rest of bike, including the same tyres, tubes, PSI.

Of course there is the placebo effect, but until I get round to testing for that you have to accept some initial findings with that caveat.

First, wheels do vary a lot in their characteristics and feeling those differences is good fun in itself, so that is one reason to augment your wheel collection.

Second, I really like aerodynamic wheels. The physics doesn't lie and it's always worth factoring this in high up in your priorities.

Weight ... weight is overrated as a wheel attribute (note how it is the key selling point for so many wheels!) .. .but does have a noticeable influence on a wheel's characteristics. Just remember that if you want the wheel for riding with repeated hard accelerations or lots of climbing, then prioritise low rim weight. However, if you want the wheel for general riding or TTing then weight is much less of an issue. I am going to be heretical here and say that I often prefer riding with heavier rims to light rims as they hold the speed better, albeit requiring more power to get up to speed. Combined with aeroness, it's for this reason that lots of people (mysefl includied) like Cosmic Carbone wheels. I also really like the old shimano 16 spoke wheels which have rims that feel they are made of lead, but roll like thunder once they get going.

Freehub compatibility is an issue ... Mavic, DT, (e.g. Zipp), and Campag are best here as you can simply switch freehub and with a minor adjustment to indexing you're off Shimano are a real problem here as you're into the land of JTEK shiftmates and conversion cassettes ... which leads you to seperate chains etc. etc.

Comfort also varies considerably but the only conclusion I've drawn here is that steel spoked wheels are more comfortable than aluminium spoked wheels.

Contradicting the post earlier, you can get very robust AND light wheels, but you do have to pay for them (avoid, for example, cheap Xero wheels). Campag Shamals are a good example of a reasonably light, robust wheel. Suspect the new Dura Ace also do well here given shimano's reputation. Easton are also rated highly though I haven't used them. Then there is handbuilt ... make sure you find a good wheelbuilder

Brian B

gkerr4 wrote:

yes - as above - campag make 'shimano' compatible freehubs - although they are getting difficult to get hold of.

Fulcrum wheels are made by campag too - I was wondering if fulcrum were going to be shimano / campag freehubs while the campag wheels became 'campag only' - but this is pure speculation on my part.

i said this well over a year ago and got slightly ridiculed on this Forum for suggesting such nonsense. It might turn out to be true!

gkerr4

Brian B wrote:

gkerr4 wrote:

yes - as above - campag make 'shimano' compatible freehubs - although they are getting difficult to get hold of.

Fulcrum wheels are made by campag too - I was wondering if fulcrum were going to be shimano / campag freehubs while the campag wheels became 'campag only' - but this is pure speculation on my part.

i said this well over a year ago and got slightly ridiculed on this Forum for suggesting such nonsense. It might turn out to be true!

would make a lot of sense really - after all, shimano don't 'do' campag compatible wheels so why would campag? - but then they can use fulcrum to pick up the sales from shimano customers.

Jeff Jones

synchronicity wrote:

The theory is that saving rotating weight is more important is true.

Because the rotating part has to be accelerated forward as well as revolved around its axis. Maybe someone else can explain it better, as I'm still a bit tipsy... :oops:

The theory may be true but the actual effect is negligble. i.e. you will not be able to tell the difference between losing 100g off the rim compared to losing it off the axle. It's not worth worrying about where you are saving weight.

Whether you should upgrade - depends on what you've got now, how well they work, what characteristics you're looking for, and how much you've got to spend.

Winston Smith

Surely the only really important time having heavier wheels is a disadvantage is when you are accelerating.

Is it not true that a cycle wheel has much the same properties as a flywheel insofar as it stores energy. So is it not true that whilst it will be harder to get a wheel up to speed, once there, the wheel will keep its speed, so when you stop pedalling you don't lose speed as fast as with a light wheel? Obviously the efficiency is nowhere near 100% but you don't lose all the energy you put into the wheel.

Depending on the type of riding you are doing wheel mass may or may not be critical, if you don't have to accelerate much it probably doesn't matter, if you are doing 2km laps in a race with lots of corners to accelerate out of it might do.

cougie

Damn - Jeff beat me to it...

It does depend what wheels you have now. If its a basic cheapo set - then borrow a pals lighter, more expensive wheels and see if you notice the difference.

If you go from say a £100 set to a £500 then you'd notice it. If however you go from a £500 to a £1000 set - I doubt you would.

Plus decent tyres will make a big difference to it as well.

dennisn

The wheels you have are probably more than good for training. I don't see much purpose
in using high end wheels for everyday riding unless it's for "bling". Aero wheels don't
work much at all unless you can ride at 20- 25 MPH without much problem. If you race
then a good set of high end race wheels can give you that little extra but don't expect
anything even close to a miracle, they are mostly hype and bling. Key word "mostly".

Dennis Noward

cougie

I kind of disagree there - when I ride my Planet X 50mm Carbon tubular wheels - they do feel far faster than my high pressures. And I dont easily ride over 20 mph. Average is more like 17-18.

But - do you want to spend £500 on wheels and lots more on tubs ? Depends on how big your pockets are.

andrewgturnbull

Winston Smith wrote:

Surely the only really important time having heavier wheels is a disadvantage is when you are accelerating.

Is it not true that a cycle wheel has much the same properties as a flywheel insofar as it stores energy. So is it not true that whilst it will be harder to get a wheel up to speed, once there, the wheel will keep its speed, so when you stop pedalling you don't lose speed as fast as with a light wheel? Obviously the efficiency is nowhere near 100% but you don't lose all the energy you put into the wheel.

Depending on the type of riding you are doing wheel mass may or may not be critical, if you don't have to accelerate much it probably doesn't matter, if you are doing 2km laps in a race with lots of corners to accelerate out of it might do.

Hi there.

I raced a sprint triathlon at the weekend, the course consisted of an out-and back section of closed road, repeated 4 times.

In total I counted fifty-six 90 degree bends and seven dead turns!

I chose my 'heavy' aero wheelset. A 65mm deep front rim and a rear disc. 1900g for the pair without skewers or cassettes.

I took over 2 minutes out of everyone else on the bike section - with their lighter wheels.

Aero wins over weight _every_ time for me.

Cheers, Andy

dombo6

There is a difference. My Lemond Buenos Aires came with Bontrager Race wheels. These are ok wheels but at £160 the pair on a £1600 bike seemed a case of speccing down to meet a price point. I sold them on ebay bor £100 and bought some Easton EA90 SLX for £400-odd. They are approx 300-400gms lighter but noticeably livelier, spin up nicely and let me climb my favourite hills a couple of gears higher. They may be less strong then the Bontys but at 65kgs I don't tend to be too hard on my kit.
Also they look nicer imo

andy_wrx

andrewgturnbull wrote:

I took over 2 minutes out of everyone else on the bike section - with their lighter wheels.

But that might be because they were all cr*p 8)

Compare like-with-like : go and do it again on their wheels, or get them to do it on yours

another jacko

Wheel weight is only one factor. The quality of the bearings is also important and the rolling resistance of the tyres. I suspect that for most of us a bearing service and a tyre change would have more noticeable effect than a 100g trim in wheel weight. Spend the £500 saved on a trip to somewhere warm with smooth road surfaces and see how much more difference that makes to the joy of riding!

Peakraider

The wheels I have now are the Planet-X "model c" that came with the bike. I don't have the foggiest idea about whether they are well-regarded or not. They seem okay, but then I've never done what someone above suggested, and put some high-end wheels in my frame.

I'm simply curious to know how heavily I should upgrade on these wheels before I'm wasting time and money.

Btw, it isn't a lot I'm thinking of: if £150-350 made a big difference, I'd definitely do it.

Thanks for all the advice and answers.

always_tyred

Jeff Jones wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

The theory is that saving rotating weight is more important is true.

Because the rotating part has to be accelerated forward as well as revolved around its axis. Maybe someone else can explain it better, as I'm still a bit tipsy... :oops:

The theory may be true but the actual effect is negligble. i.e. you will not be able to tell the difference between losing 100g off the rim compared to losing it off the axle. It's not worth worrying about where you are saving weight.

Whether you should upgrade - depends on what you've got now, how well they work, what characteristics you're looking for, and how much you've got to spend.

Put it this way - I have 2 road bikes. A beaten up 1994ish carbon Specialised with 32 spoke conventional wheels, a heavy steel fork installed after the original lost an argument with a door, mudguards, training tyres, lights, etc. Feels like riding a tank. It probably weighs 12kg at least. The frame is flexy as all hell - honestly, bagels are stiffer.

My other is a stiff, lightish Alu frame - probably time for an upgrade, but hey - with Ksyriums, DA, Ti pedals and probably comes in at 8kg.

At most I go 5% faster on the rocket bike than on the jallopy. If I average 28kph on the tank, I might just get to 30kph on the rocket bike on the same ride.

In a race, thats a lot. On a weekend ride, its nothing.

The biggest difference, by far, is quality. The rocket bike glides, shifts smoothly, and is a quiet extension of me, whereas I dream of leaving the jallopy in a canal.

Invest in something that looks and feels fast and beautiful and then enjoy it for what it is, just don't expect it to go much faster. It has the same engine.

dennisn

Peakraider wrote:

if £150-350 made a big difference, I'd definitely do it.

Then don't do it because you won't notice a "big difference". Well, for sure, your wallet
will be a bit lighter and that might help.
I have a Hed 3 spoke rear carbon tubular wheel that I bought because I wanted a really good durable rear wheel for everyday use(which it is). No problems, works great, rolls
down the road just fine. It's supposed to be the fastest spoked wheel in the world or
so goes the hype. Is it??? Not for me. Then again I don't travel down the roads at 25 MPH
or better unless I have a hurricane tailwind. Good strong wheel though.

Dennis Noward

PhilofCas

Always Tyred wrote:

Jeff Jones wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

The theory is that saving rotating weight is more important is true.

Because the rotating part has to be accelerated forward as well as revolved around its axis. Maybe someone else can explain it better, as I'm still a bit tipsy... :oops:

The theory may be true but the actual effect is negligble. i.e. you will not be able to tell the difference between losing 100g off the rim compared to losing it off the axle. It's not worth worrying about where you are saving weight.

Whether you should upgrade - depends on what you've got now, how well they work, what characteristics you're looking for, and how much you've got to spend.

Put it this way - I have 2 road bikes. A beaten up 1994ish carbon Specialised with 32 spoke conventional wheels, a heavy steel fork installed after the original lost an argument with a door, mudguards, training tyres, lights, etc. Feels like riding a tank. It probably weighs 12kg at least. The frame is flexy as all hell - honestly, bagels are stiffer.

My other is a stiff, lightish Alu frame - probably time for an upgrade, but hey - with Ksyriums, DA, Ti pedals and probably comes in at 8kg.

At most I go 5% faster on the rocket bike than on the jallopy. If I average 28kph on the tank, I might just get to 30kph on the rocket bike on the same ride.

In a race, thats a lot. On a weekend ride, its nothing.

The biggest difference, by far, is quality. The rocket bike glides, shifts smoothly, and is a quiet extension of me, whereas I dream of leaving the jallopy in a canal.

Invest in something that looks and feels fast and beautiful and then enjoy it for what it is, just don't expect it to go much faster. It has the same engine.

Fair old point you've put across there and totally believe that what you have experienced is true in your case, i'm finding it a bit hard to stomach that such a difference in bike makes only a small difference to the average rider, it seems to strip away the need for upgrading, if your reason is to go faster that is. Very interesting point you've made. Cheers.

windyphil

The most important place to lose weight is round your middle.........
It's a damned sight easier to lose a whole Kg from your beer belly than your bike, and it doesn't cost £1000 !

dennisn

windyphil wrote:

The most important place to lose weight is round your middle.........
It's a damned sight easier to lose a whole Kg from your beer belly than your bike, and it doesn't cost £1000 !

I've got to disagree here. It has never been easy to lose a Kg from my beer belly but
I can spend 1000 dollars in a heartbeat rather easily(wife permiting).

Dennis Noward

Jeff Jones

andy_wrx wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

I took over 2 minutes out of everyone else on the bike section - with their lighter wheels.

But that might be because they were all cr*p 8)

Compare like-with-like : go and do it again on their wheels, or get them to do it on yours

It is hard to compare like with like when you've got different athletes, but there is a test on analyticcycling.com that shows a heavy but aero trispoke is quicker than a lighter spoked wheel in a short distance test that involves accelerating from a low speed.

PhilofCas

dennisn wrote:

windyphil wrote:

The most important place to lose weight is round your middle.........
It's a damned sight easier to lose a whole Kg from your beer belly than your bike, and it doesn't cost £1000 !

I've got to disagree here. It has never been easy to lose a Kg from my beer belly but
I can spend 1000 dollars in a heartbeat rather easily(wife permiting).

Dennis Noward

I think you've summed it up pretty well there Dennis (and thanks for the chuckle it gave)