CSC tactics in LBL

flattythehurdler

Just watched it last night. If you were the DS with the two Schlecks in the 4 man break at that stage, would you have handled it any differently, assuming they were feeling reasonable? (Provided valv hadn't paid for the win)

davidmiller

flattythehurdler wrote:

Just watched it last night. If you were the DS with the two Schlecks in the 4 man break at that stage, would you have handled it any differently, assuming they were feeling reasonable? (Provided valv hadn't paid for the win)

Wow, you've really got a problem with Valverde based on this and one of your other recent posts. Why do you dislike him so much?? I'm genuinely interested to know. Is it because there is some posibility he was implcated in peurto?

DM

flattythehurdler

No. I do have a problem with valv.piti, whoever he is, as valv. piti, whoever he is, is a cheat. This question was asked in all honesty. Was the first schleck right to go off the front before dying on the final climb. Was the other one right not to attack from further out (though he didn't actually attack at all really). Were they just too knackered to do anything else? Should they have worked together for longer? Would it have made any difference?Valverde was a worthy winner, though rebellin really fought hard. I would be interested to know what the people on here far more savvy than I think.

andyp

CSC's tactics were pretty good I thought. Ideally they ought to have sent Frank Schleck up the road and got Andy Schleck to sit on but I doubt either Valverde or Rebellin would have let Frank go given he was probably the strongest rider in the race. They probably knew Andy would get caught but his attack did give Frank chance to sit on and tire out both Rebellin and Valverde a little.

My only criticism would be that Frank's attack on the Cote Saint Nicholas was too late and that he should have attacked earlier on the climb. By going so late he gave both Rebellin and Valverde a chance to hang on first time then not have to worry too much about the second attack as it was right at the summit. If he'd attacked earlier then he'd have had more of the climb to make a difference.

Frank really ought to have tried again on the run in as he had no chance in a sprint against those two. A fake attack with 1.5 kms to go, i.e. go but don't go all out, would have seen who was going to be the one to try and bring him back. Then he should have gone again with around a kilometre to go with the hope that Rebellin and Valverde would have expected the other to chase.

This is, of course, very easy to say when you're sat on your sofa watching the race with a beer in your hand.

afx237vi

Agree with andyp. It's all well and good having a man advantage in the break, but when both riders are absolutely woeful at sprinting, there's not really much else you can do other than what they actually did.

Valverde nearly cracked on the Saint Nicholas, but even then Rebellin was looking quite comfortable.

Maybe Frank should have gone again with 2 or 3 km to go. It probably would have been doomed, but as Sean Kelly said in the commentary, it's better to give your all and finish 20 seconds down than to do nothing and be easily beaten. You finish third either way, but at least you have a chance with the first option.

Whatever... no-one has chance against Valverde in a three-up sprint.

flattythehurdler

I would have thought this is right, it's just that duffers or liggett or whoever it was started saying with about 15k to go that with 2 men in a 4 man break, it would be an absolute disaster for CSC if they didn't win. I though this was harsh/wrong at the time, but Kelly seemed to agree with him so I wondered if they had really messed up tactically, or got it right and just weren't strong enough. I was also well aware that they were probably all knackered, hence wondered if, all thing being equal, their tactics were good or bad or indifferent. Watching "Overcoming" it struck me that maybe Riis wasn't a master tactician, but what do I know compared to him?

LangerDan

Whatever about having the legs (or not) Schleck the Elder did himself no favours by letting Valverde cage him in against the barriers, thus ensuring he had to slow down on a climb before launching an attack.

I've quoted Kellys approach often enough before and I'll say it again - "In order to win, you must be prepared to lose" - Schleck looked like he was expecting to be granted three wishes from the Sprint Fairy in the last 600m

drenkrom

From what I saw, I don't think Big Schleck had anything else in the tank. With Rebellin and Valverde, the onus was on the Schlecks to attack, that's for sure. The other two were only ever going to close down gaps, and were bound to close it with less anger if it was Andy who went off the front. The only alternative I could see was having Frank attack from far out, let the other two close it down, which they would surely have put in some energy doing, and maybe Andy can profit from the fatigue and counter once they make it back up to Frank. But that assumes everyone is at some sort of generic level of fitness and that there is no such thing as a pecking order. In the situation they were in, I think they played the cards they had in hand relatively well. There may be a little bit of fighting spirit missing in Frank's riding.

Despite the man advantage, it would have been a bad bet to pick a Schleck for the win in that group. (Please disregard the fact that I chose Frank for the win in PTP. :roll: )

andyp

One question that I'd like to see answered is what Rebellin's tactics were? Surely he knew he has next to no chance against a rider like Valverde in a sprint so why didn't he try and get away? If he'd countered Frank Schleck's first attack on the Saint Nicholas I think they'd have been rid of Valverde.

Valverde said afterwards that he agreed with Rebellin that they'd work together to bring Andy Schleck back. Could Frank not have had a similar discussion with Rebellin and agreed a non-aggression pact, i.e. if you attack I'll not chase and vice versa? It means you still run the risk of not winning but it reduces the odds of winning from 3-1 to 2-1.

mangaman

I agree with andyp that Frank should have attacked earlier on the Cote Saint Nicholas

Valverde looked as though he was just hanging on there, but once they got to the top he had plenty of recovery time

I wonder if Rebellin thought Valverde was suffering and that he could take him in the sprint

I thought Valverde's tactics were spot on in the run-in tough. Keeping Schleck boxed in behind and Rebellin just ahead so he could control them both was top notch

calvjones

andyp wrote:

One question that I'd like to see answered is what Rebellin's tactics were? Surely he knew he has next to no chance against a rider like Valverde in a sprint so why didn't he try and get away? If he'd countered Frank Schleck's first attack on the Saint Nicholas I think they'd have been rid of Valverde.

Valverde said afterwards that he agreed with Rebellin that they'd work together to bring Andy Schleck back. Could Frank not have had a similar discussion with Rebellin and agreed a non-aggression pact, i.e. if you attack I'll not chase and vice versa? It means you still run the risk of not winning but it reduces the odds of winning from 3-1 to 2-1.

I suspect Tintin definitely thought he could take Valv - especially from behind. :shock:

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

To be fair, all 4 riders had put in a _lot_ of effort to make it to that break, and there was very little chance of any of them having enough left to put a gap into the others. In that company the best Andy or Frank could have hoped for was to go for the "Highest Placed Schleck" award.

Which brings me to the Rund um den Henninger. I can just imagine Andy turning round to Rebellin after the finish and saying something along the lines of "How do you like them apples?"

Cheers, Andy

afx237vi

andrewgturnbull wrote:

Which brings me to the Rund um den Henninger. I can just imagine Andy turning round to Rebellin after the finish and saying something along the lines of "How do you like them apples?"

Cheers, Andy

And then twatting the nearest copper :twisted: