Bella Jorg retires
Comments
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If I was Jorg, I'd be feeling sick when I read that Vinokourov and Basso are planning comebacks. Who said crime doesn't pay?0
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can't say I'm bothered...the sport doesn't need useless plea bargain confessions about doping that scare sponsors0
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Put yourself in the position of a manager of a top team. Would you hire him? He's getting on a bit, he'll be clean but slower, he'll be unpopular - among the clean riders because he doped, and among the dirty because he spilled the beans, and he won't be as cheap as a keen neo-pro. There's no shortage of would-be professional cyclists.
Vino and Basso are better riders than Jaksche, so I can understand why there is still interest in signing them.
Then there's VDB. I guess if you signed him you could guarantee about 2 months of "where's VDB" publicity.Jeff Jones
Product manager, Sports0 -
Jeff Jones wrote:Put yourself in the position of a manager of a top team. Would you hire him? He's getting on a bit, he'll be clean but slower, he'll be unpopular - among the clean riders because he doped, and among the dirty because he spilled the beans, and he won't be as cheap as a keen neo-pro. There's no shortage of would-be professional cyclists.
Vino and Basso are better riders than Jaksche, so I can understand why there is still interest in signing them.
Then there's VDB. I guess if you signed him you could guarantee about 2 months of "where's VDB" publicity.
But there is a shortage of places on top teams, because some teams are spending their money on a medical programme, rather than on a couple of extra young riders. Doping costs jobs. And every time I see this cack argument of Dave's, I'm going to post one of these. Now, I believe I'm needed on another thread...Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:Jeff Jones wrote:P.
But there is a shortage of places on top teams, because some teams are spending their money on a medical programme, rather than on a couple of extra young riders. Doping costs jobs. And every time I see this cack argument of Dave's, I'm going to post one of these. Now, I believe I'm needed on another thread...
The only cack is yours son...cause you've not a clue what goes through the mind of top amature rider knocking on the door of a decent pro team, and not wanting to see sponsors dissapear or budgets reduced by sponsors or who is close to working his way up to that..obviously...you are incapable of seeing that among a team of 20 riders some or quite a few might be honest and hence people like this jaksche character and sinketwiz should have confessed for themselves and not implicated everone by association. Team wide doping won't be happening nowdays with the controls, it is invividuals, groups of that do.0 -
We'd love to give you a contract, pal, but we're spending your salary on drugs instead - sorry.Le Blaireau (1)0
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DaveyL wrote:We'd love to give you a contract, pal, but we're spending your salary on drugs instead - sorry.
how do you know whole teams are involved. If anything, Operation Puerot highlight the fact indiduals doped alone without team knowledge..Basso and Ullrich both used the same dr...0 -
Graeme Obree being asked to pay into his French team's "medical fund"?Le Blaireau (1)0
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Dave_1 wrote:DaveyL wrote:We'd love to give you a contract, pal, but we're spending your salary on drugs instead - sorry.
how do you know whole teams are involved. If anything, Operation Puerot highlight the fact indiduals doped alone without team knowledge..Basso and Ullrich both used the same dr...
Didn't Puerto all kick off/become very public when Saiz got caught, thus implicating the whole Liberty Seguros team in it. Sounds like team knowledge to me. And that's without mentioning the Kelme/CV link through Fuentes.
Also any T-Mobile doping (up until the 2006 Tour) seems to have have had team knowledge. Otherwise I think the little Freiburg convoy from Strasbourg would have been caught a lot sooner, seeing as they'd have been nicked for taking team cars without consent
'Where you going in our cars?'
'Freiburg'
'Oh, why? Surely you should be resting before tomorrow's stage?'
'Ermm yeah...me and the lads just, errr, forgot something at the university. Can we have the car keys now?'
'Oh ok then, don't be back late'0 -
DaveyL wrote:Graeme Obree being asked to pay into his French team's "medical fund"?
things have moved on since then though, no?0 -
See above & T-Mobile etc.Le Blaireau (1)0
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DaveyL wrote:See above & T-Mobile etc.
there must be in the region of 200 pr 300 riders passed through Telekom-T mobile in the 1990s and up to 2007. You're saying they've all been at it rather than the handful who have held their hand up. Even Bassons didn't dope at festina.0 -
No, I'm not saying that. See GroupOfOne MkII's post above. The balance of probability is that T-Mobile, like other teams, had an institutionalised doping programme, the cost of which, eventually, was coming out of the team's coffers, hence diverting money away from investing in new young talent, i.e. depriving riders of jobs.
As for Festina, there is surely no disputing the fact that they had an institutionalised doping programme in the mid to late 90s- whether an individual such as Bassons didn't dope does not change that one bit. Unless that is part of some subtle argument which I'm missing.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:No, I'm not saying that. See GroupOfOne MkII's post above. The balance of probability is that T-Mobile, like other teams, had an institutionalised doping programme, the cost of which, eventually, was coming out of the team's coffers, hence diverting money away from investing in new young talent, i.e. depriving riders of jobs.
As for Festina, there is surely no disputing the fact that they had an institutionalised doping programme in the mid to late 90s- whether an individual such as Bassons didn't dope does not change that one bit. Unless that is part of some subtle argument which I'm missing.
Your missing a whole lot...like being able to see what goes through the mind of an amatuer who has dedicated himself to turning pro and sees idiots and their fans cheering the likes of this cheating nobody sinkewitz for implicating everyone possible...and the T mobile trip to the hospital has not been proven yet, so hold your horses before accusing everyone on T mobile. And the management of Festina took money off the riders to put into a kitty was what Zulle explained...the riders paid for the doping...likewise at Le Groupement it appeared that the riders paid in themselves...not the sponsors-why have you got this idea the CEO/Execs of a sponsrs are allocating money to a doping fund when it is clearly the management of the team , not the sponsors, who organise the kitty out of riders salaries. I very much doubt you've been close enough to top level amatuer racing to know how depressing it gets seeing sponsors that might sign you but dissapear or new sponsors not come in...riders are not forced to dope...Mottet never..Lemond never...you seem to think it is complusory when it clearly is not, it varies across teams...leave the decision to the rider I say..rather than cheer guys who chase sponsors out of the sport0 -
"riders are not forced to dope"
Excellent - that's all I need to know.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:"riders are not forced to dope"
Excellent - that's all I need to know.
how about attempting to reply..I gave examples where sponsors did not fund doping, but team management organised it from riders salaries, which doesn't fit your argument that the sponsor doesn't have money for an extra rider... cause you say they use the money on medical support0 -
“I truly believe that it now comes down to the public and the media. And I guess I’d explain that by saying, in my view, what’s got to change in sport is the federations need to really get serious about getting rid of the problem. I think they’ve got enough tools within their reach to make a start in that direction. The lack of motivation that they’ve displayed in the past, I think stems from the fact that no-one does really care. And the reason no-one cares is because the media aren’t telling the public what’s really going on. And so, to sort of turn that on its head, what I would like to see is for the media to really tell the people what’s going on, to show them the dark underbelly of sport. The people would then – I hope – walk away from the sport and say, “I’m not going to go and watch this any more”. If the people walk away, then the sponsors are going to leave with them. And when the sponsors leave the sport, then you will see that sport start taking problem seriously. So, in a lot of ways, the viewing public, the spectators, should feel empowered that they’re actually the ones now that can do something. As a scientist, I can see what’s on the horizon, I can understand what we can and can’t do, and we can certainly improve things, but as far as giant steps forward, I think the giant steps will come when the federations are motivated to implement everything they possibly can to get rid of drugs.”
Anti-doping expert Michael Ashendon does not have a problem with sponsors leaving the sport - a short term loss for the long term good of the sport. Then again he probably has never been near the top level as a cyclist either, so what does he know?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
Dave_1 wrote:DaveyL wrote:No, I'm not saying that. See GroupOfOne MkII's post above. The balance of probability is that T-Mobile, like other teams, had an institutionalised doping programme, the cost of which, eventually, was coming out of the team's coffers, hence diverting money away from investing in new young talent, i.e. depriving riders of jobs.
As for Festina, there is surely no disputing the fact that they had an institutionalised doping programme in the mid to late 90s- whether an individual such as Bassons didn't dope does not change that one bit. Unless that is part of some subtle argument which I'm missing.
Your missing a whole lot...like being able to see what goes through the mind of an amatuer who has dedicated himself to turning pro and sees idiots and their fans cheering the likes of this cheating nobody sinkewitz for implicating everyone possible...and the T mobile trip to the hospital has not been proven yet, so hold your horses before accusing everyone on T mobile. And the management of Festina took money off the riders to put into a kitty was what Zulle explained...the riders paid for the doping...likewise at Le Groupement it appeared that the riders paid in themselves...not the sponsors-why have you got this idea the CEO/Execs of a sponsrs are allocating money to a doping fund when it is clearly the management of the team , not the sponsors, who organise the kitty out of riders salaries. I very much doubt you've been close enough to top level amatuer racing to know how depressing it gets seeing sponsors that might sign you but dissapear or new sponsors not come in...riders are not forced to dope...Mottet never..Lemond never...you seem to think it is complusory when it clearly is not, it varies across teams...leave the decision to the rider I say..rather than cheer guys who chase sponsors out of the sport
1.) I don't think he was saying the sponsors are paying money towards doping, but that the team is diverting the money.
2.) How many teams have vanished because they lost a sponsor?0 -
So you're telling me the top amateur racers vying for a slot on a top pro team I ride my bike around with who applaud every confession and revelation really aren't top amateur racers vying for a slot on a top pro team? But they were so convincing! I've been riding with aliens in disguise?0
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drenkrom wrote:So you're telling me the top amateur racers vying for a slot on a top pro team I ride my bike around with who applaud every confession and revelation really aren't top amateur racers vying for a slot on a top pro team? But they were so convincing! I've been riding with aliens in disguise?
amateurs who sacrifice their youth and alternative career choices will not want sponsors leaving the sport, just new management as their life's work is lost and ill informed comments on forums about how great cheats are for felling whole teams on plea bargains based on a guilt by association and gossip level evidence needs challenged0 -
Why ill informed? We are informed the same as you are (unless you have insider knowledge, in which case spill the beans)Dan0
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flattythehurdler wrote:Why ill informed? We are informed the same as you are (unless you have insider knowledge, in which case spill the beans)
I have no inside knowledge...only the same information as people here and the perspective of what a top amatuer would feel like-I am not one now though, so I don't implcate whole teams in doping, but clearly you and others have inside knowledge, so you spill the beans sir.0
