Ullrich paying his "fine"

iainf72

Despite being not-guilty - What a guy!

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/arti ... case-15800

On his website Ullrich said he was happy with the outcome. "The payment of this fine is not a recognition of guilt ... it allows (me) to free my family from the pressure surrounding this procedure," he said.

"I never cheated anyone in my whole career nor did I prejudice anyone. I was always a loyal sportsman, my victories were the result of hard work and passion for my sport," he insisted

Kléber

I admire his generosity

He still can't tell the truth, can he :roll:

afx237vi

WTF... this is a criminal case, right? So rich people in Germany can just buy their way out of judicial proceedings? Justice? I think not.

GroupOfOne MkII

Saw this on Cyclingnews over the weekend and was somewhat confused. So Ulle can pay a large sum to the prosecutors and in return his case is dropped? :?

synchronicity

What else do you want?
For him to go to prison? :roll:

pottssteve

As I understand it, there is no section of German law which covers (alleged) drug taking of this (alleged) nature. This may be due to the fact that:
a. The German word for "performance enhancing pharmaceuticals" would be so long it would take over an hour to say.
or
b. Having lived there, it's necessary to take drugs when you live in the former East Germany in order to cope with everyday life.

Therefore, the fine is a compromise.

z000m

hes still under investigation for other doping offences, not sure he can pay them to go away. like they say no rest for the wicked.

Harry Hill

Joking aside, maybe there is something in the fact that Jan was originally bought up and trained in what was east germany?

If he (and everyone else there) was bought up through a culture of drug taking (and to be honest, for those of us who remember the olympics in the 60's and 70's, it's hardly a secret!) then maybe he did just turn around and say "hang on guys - I was just doing what you taught me to do. Shall I go on tv and discuss it with the world?"

I think it's true of a quite a few cycling teams today that they have to be a bit careful how vigourously they condem drug taking for fear of ex riders coing back and saying the same thing. "Listen guys, that was us cheating a few years ago . .. ."

This is why is some circumstances, in south africa after the first free elections for example, you just have to offer an amnesty to those who previously commited crimes, simply to get all the old stuff out in the open and give yourself a clean sheet to start with.

Harry Hill

Joking aside, maybe there is something in the fact that Jan was originally bought up and trained in what was east germany?

If he (and everyone else there) was bought up through a culture of drug taking (and to be honest, for those of us who remember the olympics in the 60's and 70's, it's hardly a secret!) then maybe he did just turn around and say "hang on guys - I was just doing what you taught me to do. Shall I go on tv and discuss it with the world?"

I think it's true of a quite a few cycling teams today that they have to be a bit careful how vigourously they condem drug taking for fear of ex riders coing back and saying the same thing. "Listen guys, that was us cheating a few years ago . .. ."

This is why is some circumstances, in south africa after the first free elections for example, you just have to offer an amnesty to those who previously commited crimes, simply to get all the old stuff out in the open and give yourself a clean sheet to start with.

Kléber

synchronicity wrote:

What else do you want?
For him to go to prison? :roll:

As a I understand, this wasn't a criminal matter so he would not have gone to prison. Instead, he pays just a small proportion of his wealth and we get no nearer to the truth.

Just telling the truth would be a start, the words on his website are so defiant:
"In my whole career I have never cheated" etc

Perhaps he is being "economical with the truth" and writing cynically but worse if he believes these words, I'd recommend he visits a psychiatrist to test for delusion and schizophrenia.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

What else do you want?
For him to go to prison? :roll:

As a I understand, this wasn't a criminal matter so he would not have gone to prison. Instead, he pays just a small proportion of his wealth and we get no nearer to the truth.

My understanding is it was a criminal matter. He was being investigated for fraud, not doping (doping is not a crime in Germany) But it was definately a criminal investigation which is how his DNA was tested against the blood bags.

He's bought his freedom.

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

synchronicity wrote:

What else do you want?
For him to go to prison? :roll:

As a I understand, this wasn't a criminal matter so he would not have gone to prison. Instead, he pays just a small proportion of his wealth and we get no nearer to the truth.

Just telling the truth would be a start, the words on his website are so defiant:
"In my whole career I have never cheated" etc

Perhaps he is being "economical with the truth" and writing cynically but worse if he believes these words, I'd recommend he visits a psychiatrist to test for delusion and schizophrenia.

would the truth have benefited cycling? You want a sinkewits confession?

Kléber

I don't know if Ullrich's actions should be there just to "benefit cycling". But many German parents will just look at Ullrich's stupid declarations and think "cycling, that's such a stupid sport, no way my little Klaus is going to do this sport!"

But for cycling, until people like him can come out and admit their problems, it just looks stupid. Sinkewitz blabbed to the media and auctioned his tale which was unpleasant at times but he told the truth. He can walk with his head held higher than Ullrich. Bjarne Riis also told the truth but in a different way yet his team mate Ullrich denies everything. I worry for his mental health.

timoid.

As I understand it, he would be liable to lose a lot more money if he admitted guilt. The fine is a compromise. He gets to keep most of his swag and the court gets some cash out of him. I don't think gaol time comes in to it.

I'm not too sure who the benefactor of the money is though. His sponsors? T-Mobile?

GroupOfOne MkII

synchronicity wrote:

What else do you want?
For him to go to prison? :roll:

Erm no. I was just struggling to understand how you can 'pay off' a criminal prosecution. How is the figure to be paid reached? I guess it's like an out of court settlement so the figure would be say around halfway to what the fine would have been should Ulle have been found guilty.

I'm not too sure who the benefactor of the money is though. His sponsors? T-Mobile?

I don't think T-Mobile are going to benefit from this at all. Am sure the story said that as part of this deal, documents seized in Ulle's house by the Swiss could now be turned over to the Bonn prosecutors, so I get the feeling this is going to run and run.

Plus it seems Ullrich is still under investigation by the Swiss Olympic Committee, or is their cheque still in the post?

synchronicity

But fellahs, 1 million bucks is a pretty almighty fine, in anyone's book.

But if it's the truth you want, have a look at this video. Trust me, watch it... you don't even need to know any German that is said, you'll get the gist of it all! :oops:

btw, I am/was still a big Ullrich fan.

timoid.

The fine was €250k, I believe. Still a lot of dough, but not quite the mill. If he admits guilt he will be liable to multiples of that.

Also his phrase is "I never cheated anybody". In other words everyone else was at it, so I feel no guilt. There are laws and there are laws. He obviously feels that he obeyed the law of the peloton. He contunues to do so with his silence. This is one big bird who will never turn canary.

dave_1

I still have some respect for Jan...he didn't build a foundation on honesty...and has avoided threatening further riders with unemployment with the revelations many crave to read and talk about

DaveyL

I've just been rading David Walsh's book "From Lance to Landis" and in there several riders reckon a proper "medical programme" costs anything between 60,000 and 100,000 Euro a year. Now, how many new young riders could that pay for if they got rid of their programme?

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

I've just been rading David Walsh's book "From Lance to Landis" and in there several riders reckon a proper "medical programme" costs anything between 60,000 and 100,000 Euro a year. Now, how many new young riders could that pay for if they got rid of their programme?

rider has to be very good first...be right up there and get some results..like winning the world RR champs 93...then the real doping starts I think...at least one of 3 levels is done as a force of nature Davey...that's why so few can make it as pro-talent is still key

DaveyL

I didn't really understand that post, but my point is, by having an organised doping plan, over say 10 top teams that probably amounts to enough money to pay the wages of 15-20 new young riders. So you could equally (obtusely) argue that continuing with the doping culture is also depriving riders of jobs.

Kléber

The trouble is that bad news from UIlrich is going to dog the sport for a long time to come. Not being able to catch and punish him sends a clear signal to sponsors that the sport can't police itself and that they risk a major scandal if they put their money into the sport.

Getting Ullrich punished, and hearing him apologise (just words, not hard to say!) would send a much stronger signal that we're moving on towards something more sponsor-friendly. Good news for Dave's and his concern for employment of young riders.

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

I didn't really understand that post, but my point is, by having an organised doping plan, over say 10 top teams that probably amounts to enough money to pay the wages of 15-20 new young riders. So you could equally (obtusely) argue that continuing with the doping culture is also depriving riders of jobs.

simple: most of us are not good enough to worry about having to dope-Ullrich was

3 levels- premiers caldenar type level-

2-pro tour domestique

1 grand tour contender

there's no jumping from level 3 to 1 on doping alone IMO...doping won't make shit shine At some point...like it or not ... Mussuew, Pantani, VDB others since demonised, Virenque and Ullrich had to rely on an immense natural talent to go through 3 levels

Kléber

Riis did that, from water carrier to classics winner and Tour winner.

Many struggling amateurs will feel under pressure to chase a contract and will cut corners to get it.

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

Riis did that, from water carrier to classics winner and Tour winner.

Many struggling amateurs will feel under pressure to chase a contract and will cut corners to get it.

Riis won a stage of 89 Giro pre EPO. remember him setting a rapid pace for Fignon in 89 TDF chasing Millar and Delgado in the pyrenean stage Millar won. How many times does the corner cutting work?

Titanium

I got plenty of respect for Ullrich the rider, even if he was tactically bad and surrounded himself with idiot managers.

As for the man himself, forget it. He's dishonorable, can't talk straight. Doesn't even think the's cheated! Even when forced to pay hundreds of thousands of euros, he gives us some bull about it all.

Now we just have to wait for the next stage, for the Swiss to investigate him, for the German media to print more scandal and for our sport, which is trying to clean itself up, to go through more months of negative media. He's bad news.

Moomaloid

Bet he's back munching the E's every saturday night :shock:

DaveyL

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I didn't really understand that post, but my point is, by having an organised doping plan, over say 10 top teams that probably amounts to enough money to pay the wages of 15-20 new young riders. So you could equally (obtusely) argue that continuing with the doping culture is also depriving riders of jobs.

simple: most of us are not good enough to worry about having to dope-Ullrich was

3 levels- premiers caldenar type level-

2-pro tour domestique

1 grand tour contender

there's no jumping from level 3 to 1 on doping alone IMO...doping won't make shoot shine At some point...like it or not ... Mussuew, Pantani, VDB others since demonised, Virenque and Ullrich had to rely on an immense natural talent to go through 3 levels

No, no, no. You see, if they cancelled their doping prog, a team could give a chance to a couple more promising level 3 guys to see if they could make it at level 2. But because they are investing so heavily in the doping prog, some young riders are being denied a chance to test themselves at the highest level. ergo doping is a very, very, very bad thing... The logic of this is irrefutable, I can prove it on an etch-a-sketch (as Bill Hicks would say).

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

I didn't really understand that post, but my point is, by having an organised doping plan, over say 10 top teams that probably amounts to enough money to pay the wages of 15-20 new young riders. So you could equally (obtusely) argue that continuing with the doping culture is also depriving riders of jobs.

simple: most of us are not good enough to worry about having to dope-Ullrich was

3 levels- premiers caldenar type level-

2-pro tour domestique

1 grand tour contender

there's no jumping from level 3 to 1 on doping alone IMO...doping won't make shoot shine At some point...like it or not ... Mussuew, Pantani, VDB others since demonised, Virenque and Ullrich had to rely on an immense natural talent to go through 3 levels

No, no, no. You see, if they cancelled their doping prog, a team could give a chance to a couple more promising level 3 guys to see if they could make it at level 2. But because they are investing so heavily in the doping prog, some young riders are being denied a chance to test themselves at the highest level. ergo doping is a very, very, very bad thing... The logic of this is irrefutable, I can prove it on an etch-a-sketch (as Bill Hicks would say).

If the young pro gets to level 2 clean, what option has he in this sport? Someone like sinkewitz won this tour of germany non event in 2004...never progressed beyond that, had a poor 05 & 06 seasons... and why? Because he doped from the start at level 3- Junior worlds is Premier Calendar level/Star Trophy level and he had no margin for improvement, unlike true talents like the demonised Jan UIllrich

DaveyL

Eh? What does this speculative drivel have to do with my drivel?

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

Eh? What does this speculative drivel have to do with my drivel?