It's official! I'm a handbuilt wheel convert
Comments
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On the whole, I wouldn't buy 32 spoke handbuilts from Dave Hinde :P0
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C'mon, factory built wheels are more about fashion than anything else.
Just look at the way the manufacturers keep swapping between nipples on hubs and nipples on rims (or even worse, no nipples at all).0 -
I think my next set of wheels will be a set of 28 spoke handbuilts.
DT Swiss mon Chasserals.
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redddraggon wrote:azzerb wrote:leonlikestrees wrote:For aerodynamics, I think you'd be hard pushed to build a pair of comparible wheels to the various factory options.
Handbuilt are nice though. I build all my own wheels, usually pretty conservatively. If I was to take up time trialling again though, I'd be off leafing through my catalogues for a nice set of wheels straight away (just after seeing if I still fit in my skinsuit!)
Who says hand built has to be un aerodynamic? :S Or am i getting the expression confused. I thought it meant building them up yourself.
Well, you could buy some Corima/Edge/Gigantux/Lew rims, Tune hubs and CX Ray Spokes, i'm pretty sure that that hand built combo will be V Aerodynamic.
:twisted:
On the whole, when people talk about handbuilts, they are talking about something like 32/36 spokes, OP rims and groupset hubs. The other handbuilts are largely in the minority.
Thanks for sticking up for me, but point taken! My old TT bike actually had a CXP30 rear rim laced up with every other spoke missing so there were only 18 spokes. Seemed to work ok, but if I'd have had the money, I'd have bought a Shamal!0 -
mab bee wrote:C'mon, factory built wheels are more about fashion than anything else.
Just look at the way the manufacturers keep swapping between nipples on hubs and nipples on rims (or even worse, no nipples at all).
I have compared Open Pro / Ultegra 32/36 vs Fualcrum R3's. The latter are easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route). Plus they have remained in true despite smashing them into potholes. The open pros need constant fettling to keep them true. I honestly dont believe that bladed spokes are there purely for aesthetic reasons any more than I believe a TT bike gives you no advantange over a conventionl road bike in a TT.....0 -
mab bee wrote:C'mon, factory built wheels are more about fashion than anything else.
Just look at the way the manufacturers keep swapping between nipples on hubs and nipples on rims (or even worse, no nipples at all).
Good golly you're right. Can't see why I wasn't won over by your logic earlier ;-)
Cheers, Andy0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:mab bee wrote:C'mon, factory built wheels are more about fashion than anything else.
Just look at the way the manufacturers keep swapping between nipples on hubs and nipples on rims (or even worse, no nipples at all).
I have compared Open Pro / Ultegra 32/36 vs Fualcrum R3's. The latter are easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route). Plus they have remained in true despite smashing them into potholes. The open pros need constant fettling to keep them true. I honestly dont believe that bladed spokes are there purely for aesthetic reasons any more than I believe a TT bike gives you no advantange over a conventionl road bike in a TT.....
Agree with the arguemtns about aerodynamics, bladed spokes, etc, but not the suggestion about the reliability of handbuilt wheels. If the wheels needed constant fettling, they weren't built very well in the first place. It's got nowt to do with the rims, the spokes, the nipples, or the hubs used.
I suppose that does put an argument in favour of the factory built wheels though, and tht is consistency. I presume any R3 is much the same as any other, whereas the handbuilt wheel depends a lot by who it was built, and when they built it0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:mab bee wrote:C'mon, factory built wheels are more about fashion than anything else.
Just look at the way the manufacturers keep swapping between nipples on hubs and nipples on rims (or even worse, no nipples at all).
I have compared Open Pro / Ultegra 32/36 vs Fualcrum R3's. The latter are easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route). Plus they have remained in true despite smashing them into potholes. The open pros need constant fettling to keep them true. I honestly dont believe that bladed spokes are there purely for aesthetic reasons any more than I believe a TT bike gives you no advantange over a conventionl road bike in a TT.....
I find that very difficult to believe. 2 to 3 mph difference is huge ( a 24 minute '10' compared to a 22 min one). I think I'd want to see some double blind testing in carefully measured conditions before I was convinced. Perhaps I was quicker than I thought ... if only
I accept that, provided you're riding fast enough, a 'proper' TT is faster than a road a bike but 22 minute '10s' have been done on single fixed road bikes let alone on gears. I still maintain that the most important piece of equipment is the nut holding the handlebars
Even so there are some incredible times these days and I guess some of that must be down to the bike.
GeoffOld cyclists never die; they just fit smaller chainrings ... and pedal faster0 -
I used to find on my TT bike I'd be about a minute quicker on a '10', on the same course. The only thing aero about that was the aforementioned 'aero' rear wheel (CXP 30, 18 double-butted spokes), and the position. 2 minutes in a single pair of wheels would be something0
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Geoff_SS wrote:I find that very difficult to believe. 2 to 3 mph difference is huge ( a 24 minute '10' compared to a 22 min one).
24 mins is 110% of 22mins - quite a difference. 2 mins over a short event is massive, when you compare some of the time differences over a Grand Tour - 90 hours on the road and the 1st and 2nd riders can easily be separated less than that 2 mins.0 -
leonlikestrees wrote:I used to find on my TT bike I'd be about a minute quicker on a '10', on the same course. The only thing aero about that was the aforementioned 'aero' rear wheel (CXP 30, 18 double-butted spokes), and the position. 2 minutes in a single pair of wheels would be something
Hi there.
You are right. TT like all good things, is all about position.
Wheels help, but I'm sure 90% of the difference in your case was position. Not that the last 10% isn't worthwhile - it is.
Cheers, Andy0 -
Back then I'd have bought everything I could, but I was a student so getting a good position and a skinsuit made a difference.I borrowed a TT lid once. I can't quantify the difference but boy did it feel fast.
I'd like to try a full TT rig sometime, but I don't want to be one of those guys coming 50th in a 10 doig a long 23 with 5K of TT kit!0 -
It wasnt the most scientific of tests, so be careful about extrapolating into potential race results.. :shock: I too was amazed at the difference, in terms of measured differences, I seem to constantly be between 2-3 minutes faster over an undulating 20 mile loop that I ride. Again, the other variables probably make the result statistically unsound, so it's purely a subjective assessment. I got the R3's mainly because of the reviews about suitability for heavier riders, maybe the additional stiffness they offer has a more pronounced effect the heavier you are. Whether the effect is real or simply I manage to ride harder because of the psychological advantage of using them I don't know nor really care, so long as it works.Agree with the arguemtns about aerodynamics, bladed spokes, etc, but not the suggestion about the reliability of handbuilt wheels. If the wheels needed constant fettling, they weren't built very well in the first place.
I have to true up all the wheels I use, I'm 98kgs so not surprising, even at racing weight I'm still at 90 Kgs! The R3's are the only wheels that havent required it (so far anyway).0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:I have compared Open Pro / Ultegra 32/36 vs Fualcrum R3's. The latter are easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route).
You don't seem very consistent in your claims, Steve. Was it a 2-3mph difference over 5 miles or a ~1mph difference over 20 miles? In any case I'd suggest the effect must be largely psychological, since wind tunnel testing shows that R3s are hardly the most aero of wheels.SteveR_100Milers wrote:It wasnt the most scientific of tests, so be careful about extrapolating into potential race results.. :shock: I too was amazed at the difference, in terms of measured differences, I seem to constantly be between 2-3 minutes faster over an undulating 20 mile loop that I ride.
Can't find precise figures for those wheels, but from the figures I do have for similar wheels, I'd suggest the advantage is at most 10W at 50km/h over a standard 32 spoker (I'm being pretty generous there - real difference is probably nearer 5W). If you scale that back to a more mortal 35km/h (~22mph), then that's only 3.4W advantage, and bearing in mind you'll be putting out something in the order of 200W at that speed, that's only 1.7% less power. Now given power against wind drag is proportional to the cube of speed, that 1.7% power saving nets you ~0.6% speed increase at the same power - in other words a 0.1mph increase in speed.
I'm thoroughly expecting to be shot down in flames by all of those on here who don't believe science - but that science does tell the true story, anything else is purely down to psychology (which I'm perfectly prepared to believe does make a difference - I go faster on my nice bike!)0 -
The 2-3 mph difference was on a mile loop tried a couple of times both wheels sets. I have since noticed a (albeit smaller) improvement on the 20 mile loop. I know that the R3's are hardly the last word in aero, but maybe rider weight is a consideration. Bizarrely, when I borrowed a TT bike last year with deep section carbon rims I didnt go any faster on two different 10 courses compared to my usual road bike with clip ons. Again, though only observation, and with so many variables probably not comparable. Either way, whatever the reason, indeed even if psychological, it seems to work, and that makes me happy.0
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Given the shortness of the course, was this on a bike with a power meter, or how else were you keeping the riding effort constant? If you were using heart rate then that won't have stabilised until near the end of such a test, making the results essentially worthless.
Scepticism based on the fact that there is no wheel in the world which could give you such improvements based on all the other far more scientific testing I've seen results for. To get a 2mph improvement at 20mph implies a 33% decrease in drag, and given a pair of 32 spoke wheels only makes up 10 to 15% of your total drag, that implies the R3s were actually pushing you along!0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:The 2-3 mph difference was on a mile loop tried a couple of times both wheels sets. I have since noticed a (albeit smaller) improvement on the 20 mile loop. I know that the R3's are hardly the last word in aero, but maybe rider weight is a consideration. Bizarrely, when I borrowed a TT bike last year with deep section carbon rims I didnt go any faster on two different 10 courses compared to my usual road bike with clip ons. Again, though only observation, and with so many variables probably not comparable. Either way, whatever the reason, indeed even if psychological, it seems to work, and that makes me happy.
When we first started racing (evening 10s) my wife rode her only bike which was a Mercian tourer with mudguards, carrier and 700c 28mm pressures. I think, from memory, she was doing around 33 minutes; not bad for a woman in her 40s with no pretensions as an athlete.
We bought her a 531 Peugeot road bike with sprint wheels and close clearances - a proper racing bike. Amazingly she was slower on that than her tourer when she first raced on it. I don't think she felt she had to try quite as hard because, after all, it was a racing bike and should be naturally fast. There's a lot going off in your head. That's why tests such as yours are so subjective as to have little scientific value.
When I raced my trike, I fitted a 'fast' front wheel. As the two rear wheels were shod with heavy tyres I knew it made little difference but I could see the thin front wheel so I guess it helped my head and through that, my legs.
GeoffOld cyclists never die; they just fit smaller chainrings ... and pedal faster0 -
aracer wrote:Given the shortness of the course, was this on a bike with a power meter, or how else were you keeping the riding effort constant? If you were using heart rate then that won't have stabilised until near the end of such a test, making the results essentially worthless.
Scepticism based on the fact that there is no wheel in the world which could give you such improvements based on all the other far more scientific testing I've seen results for. To get a 2mph improvement at 20mph implies a 33% decrease in drag, and given a pair of 32 spoke wheels only makes up 10 to 15% of your total drag, that implies the R3s were actually pushing you along!
I still think you are taking the comments too seriously!. I didnt even use an HRM, simply rode round the block a few times and observed the speedo occasionally. I am pretty sure it was adrenalin doing the work. Even analysing after several times on a 20 mile loops, these times are probably more influenced by level of fitness, weather, traffic and traffic lights etc, so repeating msyelf again its not a true scientific test! How much of that is purely down to aerodynamic drag is (clearly) debatable, and probably minute.
However, I still maintain that I can ride the bike faster with better wheels - but cant really quantify it (at least until I have ridden several TT's using them, and even that is still very unreliable). Ultimately, if I manage to achieve PB's with them, then doe it all really matter?
I bet every tester who has found a good set of wheels that suits them, has found that they have made noticeable improvements in their times, and yes I know that is not an aero improvement. Few courses are truly flat, and I am sure that a stiffer wheel for a heavy rider has some benefit in transmitting that power, or perhaps more likely, the sensation of a stiffer wheel provides a psychological stimulus that encourages the rider to push harder.0 -
So you're basically saying that you have no evidence at all whether the wheels are faster or slower, and all you're actually doing is asserting that they feel nicer? Maybe you should have started off by saying "I have compared riding normally vs riding harder due to the excitement of having new kit. The latter was easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route). " instead.SteveR_100Milers wrote:I still think you are taking the comments too seriously!0 -
I agree that "handbuilt" usually means 32/36 spoke wheels. Of course, for a long time, that is what "wheels" meant too
I am a big fan of the look of Shamals and other deep V rims. But for high-end custom wheels, check out these pictures. Looks aero to me!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ligerowheels/2404150789/
Record hubs on Excellight rims would weigh less and cost less than a lot of factory wheels. I think that factory wheels can offer poor value in comparison.0 -
aracer wrote:
So you're basically saying that you have no evidence at all whether the wheels are faster or slower, and all you're actually doing is asserting that they feel nicer? Maybe you should have started off by saying "I have compared riding normally vs riding harder due to the excitement of having new kit. The latter was easily 2-3 mph faster over same route (I did some back to back testing around a 5 mikles route). " instead.SteveR_100Milers wrote:I still think you are taking the comments too seriously!
Whatever... :roll:
There IS evidence that I ride faster with them, the question is WHY not IF. You're not an personal injury claims lawyer in your spare time are you??0 -
Maybe, but in a similar fashion I'm sure I could provide evidence that I ride faster with a Barbie Bell on my bike if I wanted to.SteveR_100Milers wrote:There IS evidence that I ride faster with them
Of course anyone with even a small understanding of the physics of cycling and conducting proper scientific experiments would realise that riding on the road would be hopelessly inaccurate if trying to understake a true comparison of the effect of different wheels on speed for a constant power output and resistance.0 -
Yeah OK I'm an a*sehole and know nothing...thanks for pointing it out. Next.0
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There is so much unsubstatiated opinion when it comes to anything to do with bike performance and anything to do with aerodynamics is particulary subject to large helping of BS or myth.
There has been some scientific research into the aero effect of wheels, although little by manufacturers and even less that is intelligible to ordinary mortals. Wind tunnel testing has shown that rider position has by far the greatest effect followed, at some distance,by disc wheels. A few spokes are unlikely to make a measurable difference
Also, a massive 20% increase in aero efficiency in a wheel is only going to have a marginal effect on the whole bike - rider package. CW did some performance tests last year using power meters, etc, and concluded the the Campag Neutron was the best all round wheel. Aero effects were not specifically measures however - the test is far too expensive to run.0 -
We really should have put some of our PMs on this thread, Steve - were talking earlier about that CW wheel test. It's worth bearing in mind that their conclusion was simply that the Neutron was the best clincher wheel if you are riding on a track - unfortunately since they didn't baseline the clinchers against the tubs it's impossible to tell the advantage of the proper deep section tub wheels, but I'm sure even in that environment there was some. Meanwhile the results of that don't necessarily translate at all to riding on the road unless you have a completely calm day with no traffic - any crosswind component starts to make a huge difference with the proper deep section wheels having a big advantage over something like the Neutron. There has actually been plenty of better aero wheel research done in wind tunnels and including crosswind effects - some at http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html and a huge amount done by a couple of manufacturers Zipp and Hed.
You are half right about the relative effects though - position is by far the most important. However given nobody uses a disc on the front on the road and the aero effect of the front wheel is far more important than the back, deep section spoked wheels rather than discs are more important next (the best seems to be the Zipp 808).0
