Back wheel not straight in rear triangle

Brian B
Brian B Posts: 2,071
edited April 2008 in Workshop
On my new shiny carbon bike(well almost new it did a few miles last summer but just took it out this year) - When fitting the back wheel if I just put it in and leave it alone it leans to one side and can touch my seat stays. I have to adjust it to sit comfortably in the middle of the seat and chainstays. Is this normal? I have noticed a slight lean on my other bikes but not a bad as this.
Brian B.
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Comments

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    No. It is out of dish. Take it to a bike shop. They can adjust the tensions to make it sit central relative to the frame.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    There is always a little bit of adjustment(by you) required when putting a wheel on a bike.
    Dropouts and fork ends are not perfect and each wheel usually requires a little "wiggling"
    around to get it centered in the frame. You just can't slip it in, clamp it down, and
    assume all is well. YOU are the one that has to center the wheel, not the dropouts.
    Of course this also assumes that you wheel is properly trued and dished.

    Dennis Noward
  • Brian B
    Brian B Posts: 2,071
    edited April 2008
    Andyp2003+3+2 wrote:
    No. It is out of dish. Take it to a bike shop. They can adjust the tensions to make it sit central relative to the frame.

    Andy what is out of dish? My wheel is a brand new Kysrium ES surely it cannot be out of 'dish' can it?

    I suppose I should try another wheel. I have another pair of ES wheels I should try that to see if its the wheel or the frame. I googled 'dish' I do not want to muck about with my spokes as the wheel is very true.
    Brian B.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Brian B wrote:
    Andyp2003+3+2 wrote:
    No. It is out of dish. Take it to a bike shop. They can adjust the tensions to make it sit central relative to the frame.

    Andy what is out of dish? My wheel is a brand new Kysrium ES surely it cannot be out of 'dish' can it?

    If it's a new wheel I have to believe that you are not taking enough care when you put it
    into the dropouts. You need to sight down the tire to see that it's centered and then tighten the quick release. Look to see how it is centered at the bottom bracket. Should be right in the middle of the chainstays.

    Dennis Noward
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    A new wheel can be easily out of dish.

    even if it is a kysrium es or whatever, theres obviously something wrong with it. Its only as good as the person that built it.

    Doesnt take much to neglect the dishing tool next to you when building a wheel if youre doing large numbers a day.

    Could be spaced wrong i suppose.
  • Brian B
    Brian B Posts: 2,071
    dennisn wrote:
    Brian B wrote:
    Andyp2003+3+2 wrote:
    No. It is out of dish. Take it to a bike shop. They can adjust the tensions to make it sit central relative to the frame.

    Andy what is out of dish? My wheel is a brand new Kysrium ES surely it cannot be out of 'dish' can it?

    If it's a new wheel I have to believe that you are not taking enough care when you put it
    into the dropouts. You need to sight down the tire to see that it's centered and then tighten the quick release. Look to see how it is centered at the bottom bracket. Should be right in the middle of the chainstays.

    Dennis Noward

    Thanks Dennis

    I did what you said today and I got it dead centre no problem but its just now its clamped it just not exactly where it looks like it should be in relation to the frames dropouts- its just sitting a little bit below the desired place but still looks to be clamped securely enough.

    I just get a little bit scared of anything wrong with my good bike as it cost a few quid and took six months to get.
    Brian B.
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    dennisn wrote:
    There is always a little bit of adjustment(by you) required when putting a wheel on a bike.
    Dropouts and fork ends are not perfect and each wheel usually requires a little "wiggling"
    around to get it centered in the frame. You just can't slip it in, clamp it down, and
    assume all is well. YOU are the one that has to center the wheel, not the dropouts.
    Of course this also assumes that you wheel is properly trued and dished.

    Dennis Noward
    You must have some dodgy frames, Dennis - this is something which should be perfectly aligned, and all of mine certainly are. It's not as if you see the pro mechanics wiggling the wheels around in the frames when they change them.
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    You should be able to just drop the wheel in and have it almost dead centre every time. You don't see team mechanics messing about when a rider punctures. I can fit any of my wheels in any of the bikes and they are within 2mm of centre. It should sit right before you clamp it up. Try another wheel in. If it is the same then you have a frame problem. If not then it is the wheel.
    Do not try to adjust a Ksyrium ES wheel.
    I need to type faster.
    My Fleet.
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    John.T wrote:
    I need to type faster.
    Great minds think alike - and almost simultaneously :D






    (and fools seldom differ)
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    aracer wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    There is always a little bit of adjustment(by you) required when putting a wheel on a bike.
    Dropouts and fork ends are not perfect and each wheel usually requires a little "wiggling"
    around to get it centered in the frame. You just can't slip it in, clamp it down, and
    assume all is well. YOU are the one that has to center the wheel, not the dropouts.
    Of course this also assumes that you wheel is properly trued and dished.

    Dennis Noward
    You must have some dodgy frames, Dennis - this is something which should be perfectly aligned, and all of mine certainly are. It's not as if you see the pro mechanics wiggling the wheels around in the frames when they change them.

    Are you trying to tell me that you absolutely CAN'T put a wheel in even SLIGHTLY crooked?? Especially someone new to the game. And that you don't even have to look
    to see if you've got it right? It's just automatically in the right spot? No problem? I'm going to put it to you bluntly - you're full of sh*t.

    Dennis Noward
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    No Denis. We are not saying that. We are saying that if the wheel is placed in the dropouts correctly, that is right in to them which is easier than getting it anywhere else it should be central. The OP was inferring that when he fitted his wheel it did not go central. This points very strongly to a fault somewhere either in the dropouts or the wheel. I am not saying it is imposible to put a wheel in wrong, just it is harder than putting it in right.
    Have all your bikes got horizontal dropouts with no adjustable stops. They do take more care but are a bit old hat nowadays.
    My Fleet.
  • topdude
    topdude Posts: 1,557
    Ok, back to basics !
    With the bike upside down loosen the skewer and allow the wheel to sit fully in the drop outs. Check if the rim is closer to one side of the frame at the Bottom Bracket and Brake Bridge.
    Remove the wheel and put it back in the other way round, do the same checks.
    If the rim is still closer to the same side of the frame then the dropouts / frame is out of line.
    If the rim is closer to the other side of the frame then the wheel is not dished correctly and needs checking.
    Simple.
    He is not the messiah, he is a very naughty boy !!
  • Brian B
    Brian B Posts: 2,071
    Got up today and tried my other ES wheel and bingo it was dead centre. Obvioulsy a wheel problem which is a relief as it was a bit of a wait to get my frame. I have been cycling for almost a decade and have never came across anything like this.

    Thanks Guys
    Brian B.
  • meagain
    meagain Posts: 2,331
    "Ok, back to basics ! ...... Simple."

    Sounds about right to me!
    d.j.
    "Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    John.T wrote:
    No Denis. We are not saying that. We are saying that if the wheel is placed in the dropouts correctly, that is right in to them which is easier than getting it anywhere else it should be central. The OP was inferring that when he fitted his wheel it did not go central. This points very strongly to a fault somewhere either in the dropouts or the wheel. I am not saying it is imposible to put a wheel in wrong, just it is harder than putting it in right.
    Have all your bikes got horizontal dropouts with no adjustable stops. They do take more care but are a bit old hat nowadays.

    Sorry about the "full of sh*t" thing aracer. I have no excuse.

    Quote "if the wheel is placed in the dropouts correctly". So I'm going to have to assume
    that it could be placed "incorrectly" . If I'm not mistaken neither front nor rear dropouts are
    machined to such close tolerances that the wheel axels slide into position with zero
    clearance. There is always just a bit of play, not much I'll grant you, but a little, and this
    little bit at the axel can cause a wheel to tilt at the rim enough to touch one side of the
    brake pads or possibly even the frame near the bottom bracket. I have seen this happen
    to "newbies", for lack of a better word, more than a few times. You simply can't deny
    that there is a small bit of clearance(up, down, front ,rear) between the axel and the
    dropouts. No one could afford a bike that had the dropout/axel interfaces machined to
    zero tolerances. I doubt it's even possible. Suppose your rear vertical dropouts were
    out of alignment, front to rear, .5 millemeter. Would this not cause your rear wheel
    to run slightly toward the left or right side of the bike near the BB because the axel is not
    square within the frame? Same thing would apply if this .5 miliemeter was in the up/down
    position. Wouldn't your wheel run closer to one brake pad than the other? On the plus side Brian B found out that that he had, in fact, placed the wheel "correctly" in the frame
    On the down side his new wheel needed fixing
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    dennisn wrote:
    Quote "if the wheel is placed in the dropouts correctly". So I'm going to have to assume
    that it could be placed "incorrectly" . If I'm not mistaken neither front nor rear dropouts are
    machined to such close tolerances that the wheel axels slide into position with zero
    clearance. There is always just a bit of play, not much I'll grant you, but a little, and this
    little bit at the axel can cause a wheel to tilt at the rim enough to touch one side of the
    brake pads or possibly even the frame near the bottom bracket. I have seen this happen
    to "newbies", for lack of a better word, more than a few times. You simply can't deny
    that there is a small bit of clearance(up, down, front ,rear) between the axel and the
    dropouts. No one could afford a bike that had the dropout/axel interfaces machined to
    zero tolerances. I doubt it's even possible. Suppose your rear vertical dropouts were
    out of alignment, front to rear, .5 millemeter. Would this not cause your rear wheel
    to run slightly toward the left or right side of the bike near the BB because the axel is not
    square within the frame? Same thing would apply if this .5 miliemeter was in the up/down
    position. Wouldn't your wheel run closer to one brake pad than the other?
    Well somehow they manage it - on all my frames I simply push the frame or fork down on the wheel so that the axle seats in the very top of the dropout slot and then do the QR up - which results in all cases in good alignment of the wheel in the frame. No wiggling about to get it right. The only way you could not put the wheel in properly is to not seat it right into the dropout - which is admittedly something some newbies do - however that's certainly not what you suggest the problem could be in your first post, and you continue to insist that frame aren't built so you can just drop the wheels in in the way I do. I still wonder about the quality of your frames if you have to manually adjust the wheel position - in any case the QR isn't really designed to support the full load it would have to if you didn't seat the wheel right at the top of the dropout slot.

    (apology accepted :D )
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    aracer wrote:
    dennisn wrote:

    (apology accepted :D )

    Thanks, appreciate that. I can be a real jerk at times.

    Dennis Noward
  • craigenty
    craigenty Posts: 960
    Brian,

    Glad you're sorted. Must be a relief that it's not the frame!

    I was going to suggest trying a few different wheels.

    Theres's no way you should ever need to wiggle a wheel to get it to fit straight between the stays. Even on a 200 quid winter hack and never mind your new baby! (Geroge told me how proud of it you are :wink: )

    The wheel should go straight in the dropouts, the axle should fit snug to the top of each one - bang - skewer tight away you go. Should be no messing at all.
    Craig


    http://www.veloventoux.com
    Check us out on Facebook
    http://tinyurl.com/6nx8afo
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    craigenty wrote:
    Brian,

    Glad you're sorted. Must be a relief that it's not the frame!

    I was going to suggest trying a few different wheels.

    Theres's no way you should ever need to wiggle a wheel to get it to fit straight between the stays. Even on a 200 quid winter hack and never mind your new baby! (Geroge told me how proud of it you are :wink: )

    The wheel should go straight in the dropouts, the axle should fit snug to the top of each one - bang - skewer tight away you go. Should be no messing at all.

    I will agree, to a point, that the wheel "should" go in and "should" be, pretty much, right on the money. My whole theory was that Brian B "could" have put the wheel in wrong and
    it didn't "have" to be a bad wheel. Although it did turn out that way. I'm going to stay with
    my earlier theory that bicycle dropouts are not machined and mounted on frames to
    "perfect or zero" toleances. It's not possible.

    Dennis Noward

    Dennis Noward
  • craigenty
    craigenty Posts: 960
    Dennis,

    I'm not being argumentative but I can assure you thet if I was paying £1500+ for a frameset those rear dropouts better be "right on the money" or it would be going back to the supplier.
    I use Dolan Frames and I know that he wouldn't let one out the door if when you put a back wheel in it wasn't absolutely cock on.
    1mm difference at the brake pads would be way too much for me.
    Craig


    http://www.veloventoux.com
    Check us out on Facebook
    http://tinyurl.com/6nx8afo
  • craigenty
    craigenty Posts: 960
    Ha, my post was censored "fool on" guess what I really put? :lol:
    Craig


    http://www.veloventoux.com
    Check us out on Facebook
    http://tinyurl.com/6nx8afo
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    craigenty wrote:
    Dennis,

    I'm not being argumentative but I can assure you thet if I was paying £1500+ for a frameset those rear dropouts better be "right on the money" or it would be going back to the supplier.
    I use Dolan Frames and I know that he wouldn't let one out the door if when you put a back wheel in it wasn't absolutely fool on.
    1mm difference at the brake pads would be way too much for me.

    Well, I guess we will agree to disagree. I still say perfect is not possible(in anything).


    Dennis Noward
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    Of course perfect isn't possible, Dennis - it's just that the tolerances possible in bike manufacture are a lot smaller than you seem to think (close enough to perfect to fool the average bike buyer).
  • Meds1962
    Meds1962 Posts: 391
    If I've had wheels out for whatever reason I put them back in temporarily while the bike is still on the stand then with the bike on the floor (ie. the weight bearing on the wheels), release the skewer, make sure the wheel engages fully into the dropout and re close the skewer. The tolerance of the dropouts is spot on or as close as makes no difference and the wheels are in the correct position every time.
    O na bawn i fel LA
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Meds1962 wrote:
    make sure the wheel engages fully into the dropout and re close the skewer./quote]

    This is what I'm talking about, "make sure" things "fully engage". If your dropouts are so
    perfectly in line and "dead on, etc." why would you even have to "make sure" of anything.
    It will always be right because, well, there is no way it can be wrong. Absolutley none,
    now how, no way, not by anyone, it is always perfect, just can't be any other way.
    All I can say is I guess I don't have a halo around my head and neither do any of my friends because I have actually seen, with my very own eyes, guys who have been riding for years, on top of the line bikes, put a wheel in slightly crooked, especially
    at races where time is of the essence. Then, if it's really crooked, they have to stop again to get it right. I guess they need to buy "perfect" bikes like all of you and they
    wouldn't have these problems. Or get halos. Plus the fact that those Trek's and Litespeed's are just junk.

    Dennis Noward
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    You make it sound like rocket science. Pre race, take frame out of car, slip front wheel into dropouts, push down on handle bars, fasten Q/R. Same at the rear. Job done. I may just try the brake to make sure but I know it will be right. At some time I guess we have all got a wheel in wrong but that was our carelessness not the frames fault. As I heard in another context somewhere 'it's not about the bike'.
    My Fleet.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    John.T wrote:
    At some time I guess we have all got a wheel in wrong but that was our carelessness not the frames fault.

    This is what I have been saying all along. It is not "impossible" to get a wheel installed
    a little out of whack due to carelessness. As for the dropouts being "spot on" or "dead
    on" or exact I think you'll find that Park Tool makes a tool(#FFG-2) to check this dropout alignment.
    Buy one and give it a try and I think you will see just how close these things aren't to
    being "dead on".
    Park also makes frame alignment and rear mech hanger alignment gauges. Not to mention
    B/B facing tools and headset facing tools. This poses the question of why any of this is
    necessary if everything is "spot on"?

    Dennis Noward
  • John.T
    John.T Posts: 3,698
    Dennis. The OP was talking about so far out of line as to rub the stays. We seem to be worrying about the odd mm. He found the wheel was wrong as was always going to be more likely. I have never had any problem with any of my bikes so we will just have to differ on this.
    My Fleet.
  • Bugly
    Bugly Posts: 520
    Dennis in the days of steel frames all quality frames would be expected to be spot on with regard to geometry, with BB and head tube faced before assembly. This is especially the case of hand built frames. I know several frame builders and not one would let a bike out the door with a less then 'perfect' alignment.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Bugly wrote:
    Dennis in the days of steel frames all quality frames would be expected to be spot on with regard to geometry, with BB and head tube faced before assembly. This is especially the case of hand built frames. I know several frame builders and not one would let a bike out the door with a less then 'perfect' alignment.

    I quit. I know, it's about time. Just one last thing. You are all dreaming if you think anything, or anyone, is perfect. Well maybe Jesus, but you know what they did to him.

    Dennis Noward

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