Frame materials
I am thinking of purchasing a new bike soon but seem to be getting conflicting advice regarding choice of frame material. Can anyone please give me a definitive answer regarding the comfort (i.e.soaks up the road bumps), power transfer and weight charactersitics of the following materials used for frames:
a) Steel
b) Alloy
c) Carbon
d) Titanium
Cheers
a) Steel
b) Alloy
c) Carbon
d) Titanium
Cheers
0
Comments
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mike ives wrote:I am thinking of purchasing a new bike soon but seem to be getting conflicting advice regarding choice of frame material. Can anyone please give me a definitive answer regarding the comfort (i.e.soaks up the road bumps), power transfer and weight charactersitics of the following materials used for frames:
a) Steel
b) Alloy
c) Carbon
d) Titanium
Cheers
No you won't get a definitive answer! It all depends on how they were put together.
Are you trolling?
Cheers, Andy0 -
Trolling - what's that?0
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Hi again.
Sorry, perhaps I was a little harsh. Trolling is the age-old internet practice of posting something known to be controversial purely to stir things up...
I guess from your response that it was a genuine question - hence the apology!
Cheers, Andy0 -
ps Choices a) and b) are the same thing. Perhaps you meant Aluminum for b)0
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Thanks Andy. It is a genuine request as I am getting a lot of conflicting information. I suppose it must be as you suggest - the way the whole bike is made up, i.e. geometry, wheels, etc.0
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"Can anyone please give me a definitive answer regarding the comfort (i.e.soaks up the road bumps), power transfer and weight charactersitics of the following materials used for frames:"
No. Not in a vacuum. Not just on the basis of frame MATERIAL only. Not I nor IMHO/E anyone.d.j.
"Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:ps Choices a) and b) are the same thing. Perhaps you meant Aluminum for b)
Titanium frames are also alloys. I guess for most purposes you can always improve on the properties of an element by alloying it with another.0 -
OK, pedants aside, here's some general answers - but remember that your weight, set-up, riding style and choice of other components can also have a significant bearing on how a bike rides / feels....it also depends on whether you plan on travelling a lot with a bike too as durability can be important.
For longevity, comfort and durability then titanium (3Al2.5V alloy) is probably the best - not the lightest, nor stiffest though, so will rarely win in the hill-climb stakes.
Carbon composites are very popular, because they are cheap to manufacture (relatively) and produce relatively light and stiff frames. You can 'tune' carbon to provide specific ride characteristics, also aided by geometry and construction. Durability is it's weak point, so less suited for crash-prone useage.
Aluminium alloy is slowly falling out of favour - but is probably the cheapest to produce in high volumes, but can be overly stiff due to need to over-engineer the frame to compensate for the limited fatigue life.
Steel is a good all-rounder and tend more to be favoured by traditionalists and expeditionists for its durabilty / repairability - the latest steel alloys are nearly as light as titanium, but you'd generally have to go custom these days for quality.
I have at least one of each and if I had to choose only one, it would be titanium.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0 -
Pedant alert.
Geometry, angles, wheelbase, rake all have "a significant bearing on how a bike rides / feels". In my view, in fact those factors have THE major bearing.d.j.
"Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."0 -
Monty Dog wrote:I have at least one of each and if I had to choose only one, it would be titanium.
I think if I had to choose only one do-it-all bike and knew it would not get nicked I would go for Ti as well. Although I did go for carbon recently it was partly because I wanted to experience the latest material and its not a do-it-all bike. The choice was always between Ti and C though. Titanium appears to have all the great qualities. For me least attractive is Al.0 -
Many thanks Monty for a sensible and helpful reply. I presumed that as this was a general cycling forum that people would get the gist of what I was asking in relation to materials. After all if I go in to any decent cycling shop I'm sure they would know exactly what it was I was meaning.
I do now appreciate there is probably not necessarily a consensus of opinion on frame materials, though your comments regarding titanium are very intereseting. However, I am grateful for the sensible replies and feel more informed to make a better choice. I will go down to the LBS and check out the ride characteristics of any diamond or graphite bikes they may have for demo. purposes. I will keep you posted.0 -
mike ives wrote:Many thanks Monty for a sensible and helpful reply. I presumed that as this was a general cycling forum that people would get the gist of what I was asking in relation to materials. After all if I go in to any decent cycling shop I'm sure they would know exactly what it was I was meaning.
I do now appreciate there is probably not necessarily a consensus of opinion on frame materials, though your comments regarding titanium are very intereseting. However, I am grateful for the sensible replies and feel more informed to make a better choice. I will go down to the LBS and check out the ride characteristics of any diamond or graphite bikes they may have for demo. purposes. I will keep you posted.
I dunno Mike, in my experience most bike shops - even the 'good' ones which just repeat the marketing speil from whichever line of bikes they carry. This is the same marketing chat that ends up being trotted out by the magazines as 'technical' reviews.
Surely we all know that steel bikes are heavy, aluminium ones are harsh, carbon ones are brittle, but titanium ones are magic because they use stuff from the aerospace industry!
If I was picking a new bike I'd start off with budget, then pick a frame based on what it was designed for, and worry about frame material last.
Cheers, Andy0 -
What Andy said. They will also "sell" you whichever one will most help them achieve the sales targets on which their profit structure per supplier is based and/or that on which they achieve the highest gross margin.
All that said, IF I were buying ONE bike and that for anything other than racing it would be titanium: I've had I think 4 - all quite different, but all very suited to their chosen purpose.d.j.
"Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."0 -
As has been said before,it depends on how the frame is built/laid up (carbon fibre) I've a Raleigh Titanium which on first impression was as rigid as my mega down tube Aluminium frame (didn't admit that to the wife!).
At the end of a long ride I don't get the aches & back pains I did on my Alli frame.
Some bike shops tell you that the carbon frames are very rigid,some tell you they are built for comfort,so even for one material,it does depend on its construction.
Sorry,but there is no definitave answerso many cols,so little time!0 -
meagain wrote:Pedant alert.
Geometry, angles, wheelbase, rake all have "a significant bearing on how a bike rides / feels". In my view, in fact those factors have THE major bearing.
I agree. The angles of the frame – especially the seat tube angle and chainstay length, as well as the rake (if any) in the forks – will have much more of an effect on how the bike feels than whatever material the frame is made from.0 -
I have posted this before regarding all the main materials used in frames that you may find it useful, you do of course find many different versions of each type but here are some very general guidelines that I have tried to put across in a plain and simple manner, they are my opinions based on 26 years as a club cyclist and 22 years as a specialist cycle retailer:
Aluminium Alloy: Often simply referred to as ‘Alloy’ Light, cheap, reasonably robust although not as comfortable when compared to the others, which is why most will have carbon forks. Alloy supposedly has the most performance drop off, which in fairness only really effects a racing cyclist where a few percent reduction in performance can make the difference (especially in their heads) of winning or coming second, in reality that applies more to the older lighter frames when Pro’ riders used extremely light versions (now most pro teams use Carbon), the modern budget frames use a heavier, more robust alloy and are of course aimed at a different style of riding. They are now the most common option in the mid range and upwards frame sets, fairly robust, as they will normally dent as apposed to crack. Normally the price dictates a purchase of a frame built in alloy, that does not mean that you will not be satisfied, you will see quite a few older frames still being ridden by club cyclists who find them perfectly adequate, plus many don’t have any complaints re’ comfort or performance drop off. Although most refer to these frames in general terms as ‘alloy’ if we are being pedantic then strictly speaking this is wrong, as steel is an alloy of carbon and iron, titanium is normally aluminum and vanadium, for example Van Nicholas use 3% Aluminium, 2.5% Vanadium and 94.5 Titanium, which they would list as 3AL 2.5V
Carbon: Comfortable, very light, efficient at transferring energy into propulsion as the material does not flex as much as other materials. Although strong they can be delicate, where other materials dent, Carbon will often crack, a friend of mine had a Colnago Carbon C40 that he had just finished cleaning in the garden, he stepped back to admire his pride and joy, just out of reach it caught a gust of wind, fell over, caught the chain stay on the rockery and cracked. As such not normally the choice for audax/touring bikes where robustness may be preferred. Most common rider is either a racing cyclist or someone who still likes to ride a racing bike down the cafe on a sunny Sunday morning, especially when you are feeling a little bit frisky in the speed department (as I get older this happens less, normally one week in May and one in August, except of course when I have a tail wind), plus it can be rather pleasing to sit with your mates remembering how good you once was and how super your new bike is; no harm in that, it's what cycling is all about. Etape style bikes are often carbon, essentially race bikes with lower gearing and perhaps geometry set up with long distance fast mileage in mind, often with a slightly shallower head angle and higher bar position, for some brands these bikes are more popular than the race bikes models in their range. Although more delicate than other materials a well built and designed frame should give long service.
Steel:Comfortable, very durable (if built correctly) with low performance drop off with age. These days only really used by club cyclist when the frame is built by a craftsmen, you are really paying for the workman ship. Many cyclist like to know who built their bike, they like the fact that they are having something built often to their own specification, you can personalise your frame with your own braze on items, light bosses, extra bottle bosses etc, you can even chose your own colour. In the past all top quality frames were purchased this way, as it was how you got exactly what you wanted, both in quality and especially frame size. The old diamond shape frame being less adaptable interms of variations in riding position than the modern sloping top tube frames; even Lance Armstrong used an off the peg frame size. Although I fall into this category, as in uses as steel frame, not Lance Armstrong, I have to admit that modern off the peg frames are now so good both interms of production quality and the flexibility that the modern geometry gives you to achieve the perfect riding position, that the necessity to have a bike made to measure is less of an issue; but I still like them, I have one that is twenty years old and still going strong. Normally purchased by traditional types who still relate to when this was the way things were and if it was good enough then well......Ok Ok, I admit riders like me.
Titanium: Becoming more popular, virtually no performance drop as they don’t even rust, comfortable, light, yet robust. Performance wise not quite as responsive as carbon or alloy (alloy when new that is), although really it is that not far off, some pro riders now even use Titanium like Magnus Bakstedt a former Paris Roubaix winner, especially in races where comfort can become an issue, for example over the cobbles of the Paris Roubaix, as riders are bashed about so much it can lead to fatigue. Quite a few Pro riders have used Titanium over the years, disguised as production bikes for the team sponsor, so actually more commonplave than many be aware.
The down side is that Titanium is very hard to work/build with; so most don't! On the upside because of this the workman ship simply has to be of top quality and it shows, Titanium frames do look and are very well made. Most common used when someone wants a fast, responsive, light comfortable (ideal for longer day rides/audax), yet robust bike and of course where price is not so much of an issue.
Most titanium manufacturers use the 3AL 2.5V grade, the 6/4 grade is usually only used for pure race bikes, it is also as a finished frame more expensive, as the raw material is more difficult to both make into tubes and then to build. Many also believe the 3AL 2.5V grade is more suitable, especially for Audax frames where riders are not looking for something quite as stiff as a full on race bike. The 6/4 was made by Reynolds who now apparently no longer make that version so expect to see that offered less as stock diminishes
Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk
sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials
VN Frame materials
Caree frame-materialsmike ives wrote:I am thinking of purchasing a new bike soon but seem to be getting conflicting advice regarding choice of frame material. Can anyone please give me a definitive answer regarding the comfort (i.e.soaks up the road bumps), power transfer and weight charactersitics of the following materials used for frames:
a) Steel
b) Alloy
c) Carbon
d) Titanium
Cheers0 -
Mike - like you, I was looking for a cmofy bike. I bought a Specialized Roubaix. It has a carbon fibre frame. It has been designed for comfort, so the geometry's very relaxed (but still fine for racing). It also has 'zertz' inserts, which are plastic shock absorbers - they certainly take the edge off bumps and potholes.
If you can try one of these out, I'd highly recommend it.0 -
Hi Paul.
Can you explain the bit where you talk about some frame materials having a 'performance drop off with age'?
Cheers, Andy0 -
Like the riders I guess!d.j.
"Cancel my subscription to the resurrection."0 -
I assume from the context he's talking about how steel frames "go soft with age" :roll:andrewgturnbull wrote:Can you explain the bit where you talk about some frame materials having a 'performance drop off with age'?0 -
Different materials of course will have different vulnerabilities to fatigue, few materials absorb stresses without any long term effect, some materials however cope with the stresses that a rider will give a bicycle frame in the long term better than others. In theory as the frame succumbs to fatigue it will flex more under load and eventually fail, so for many the concern is as much about how long will it last as much as is it about how long will the bike perform as it did when new. It is often mentioned to me when some one is considering their choice of frame material, which is why I referred to the subject.
A common reference to “Performance drop off with age” is made with frames of Aluminium Alloy, probably more so than all the other materials used in bike frames, which is why I gave that subject more attention with these frames more than I did with the others. You will see that even then I have prefixed it with the word “supposedly”, the main reason is because a good bike designer will be sensitive to the material they are using, so a modern frame in Aluminium Alloy should indeed enjoy a long life.
By the same token so should carbon, as again the designer should make allowances for the intended use, it was for a while often said that carbon became more brittle as it aged, I have not heard that for some time so didn‘t refer to it as I was trying to keep my comparisons current.
Steel is as most of us know extremely durable, however even that will eventually rust through, often from the inside out, as it deteriorates so will the performance, all be it marginally. I have ridden a steel frame from new until it did indeed rust through after regular use over literally thousands of miles over a ten year period. For sure it is a very gradual process but the first I was aware of any performance drop off was when it cracked. I dare say if it was possible to do a comparison when new then just before it failed the difference in how it rode would have been noticeable.
Titanium is probably the most durable of all the materials, unlike steel it does not rust, as such Titanium is recognised by many as about as long term as you can get when it comes how long you should expect a frame to last. I repeat a good bike designer will be sensitive to the material they are using, as such you will see that many come with a lifetime guarantee to the original owner, regardless of what material it is made with.
In conclusion of all the comparisons between the materials that I made, I referred to this subject more to illustrate that it is something to be less concerned about than all the other key points I mentioned.
Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.ukandrewgturnbull wrote:Hi Paul.
Can you explain the bit where you talk about some frame materials having a 'performance drop off with age'?
Cheers, Andy0 -
On the subject of perfromance drop off, does anyone know what you can do with an old, cracked aluminium frame? Does it have a scrap value? Can it be recycled?0
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It will have some scarp value, although you can get them repaired as well, I believe Colour Tech below offer this service
Colour Tech: - 01322 555549.
OLD FARM BUILDINGS
MAIDEN LANE
DARTFORD
DA1 4LX
Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.ukMaurice Thepity wrote:On the subject of perfromance drop off, does anyone know what you can do with an old, cracked aluminium frame? Does it have a scrap value? Can it be recycled?0 -
Maurice Thepity wrote:On the subject of perfromance drop off, does anyone know what you can do with an old, cracked aluminium frame? Does it have a scrap value? Can it be recycled?
HI there.
This is just the stuff you need - I'm sure Paul_Smith could find a supplier for you:
Cycling News Tech Review: Jacobsen Carbon Wrap-It System
Cheers, Andy0 -
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed. I feel I now understand better the situation regarding the general construction of bicycles, (in generic terms). I also note well the comments about sales and marketing in bicycle shops. This has all been really helpful. Cheers.0
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Check out the date on that Cycle Tech News Review!andrewgturnbull wrote:Maurice Thepity wrote:On the subject of perfromance drop off, does anyone know what you can do with an old, cracked aluminium frame? Does it have a scrap value? Can it be recycled?
HI there.
This is just the stuff you need - I'm sure Paul_Smith could find a supplier for you:
Cycling News Tech Review: Jacobsen Carbon Wrap-It System
Cheers, Andy
so many cols,so little time!0
