Leightweight Wheels

Mark Alexander

Does anyone have any?
What do you think?

http://www.carbonsports.com/LW_Standard_C.lasso

APIII

I've got a pair. I bought a pair of Gen 1's about a year ago. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. They are a noticeable improvement on my Ksyriums in terms of stiffness and acceleration as you would expect. However, I had the misfortune to break a spoke in the rear wheel (it was covered by my home insurance, so I didn't need to remortgage the house), but it does mean I am conscious of damaging them when I'm out on the bike. To be honest, I don't want to be thinking about my wheels when I'm riding, I just want to ride, so most of the time I leave the Ksyriums on and save the Lightweights for special occasions.

wildmoustache

APIII wrote:

I've got a pair. I bought a pair of Gen 1's about a year ago. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. They are a noticeable improvement on my Ksyriums in terms of stiffness and acceleration as you would expect. However, I had the misfortune to break a spoke in the rear wheel (it was covered by my home insurance, so I didn't need to remortgage the house), but it does mean I am conscious of damaging them when I'm out on the bike. To be honest, I don't want to be thinking about my wheels when I'm riding, I just want to ride, so most of the time I leave the Ksyriums on and save the Lightweights for special occasions.

can you notice the difference in acceleration between LWs and Ks??

giant_man

I didn't think the Lightweight clinchers were out yet but I could be wrong.

APIII

Sorry, I hadn't clicked on the link. I've got the tubs.
They do spin up very quickly, and are a definite improvement over shorter climbs.

dcj

It is somewhat of a mixed bag. Plusses and minuses on both sides.

The difference compared to Kysiriums is most noticeable when going from a descent to a short climb. Normally the speed tails off quickly unless you apply more power. With Lightweights there is a noticeably longer period that the speed does not seem to fade at all.
The first time it happened I couldn't stop grinning - it felt amazing.
Generally, but not always, at very slow speeds on the flat or uphill the wheels feel quite similar.
Above 15-20mph they behave very differently. Above 40 mph on a descent the Lightweights sometimes begin to accelerate a little more, whereas Kysiriums only do that if you peddle hard at that speed.

When I first got the Lightweights I noticed on shallow descents with a tailwind on narrow roads, how cars sometimes found it quite a challenge to overtake as the speed differential isn't that great between them and you.

In Tenerife there are climbs from sea level to 2,300 meters that go on for 32 miles, more or less. On these long steady climbs you can often get a feeling that the lightweights are rotating more easily.

On the way back down, the Kysiriums are far more consistent under braking. The carbon rims on the Lightweights grab very easily. I would describe their behavior under hard braking as inconsistent and borderline acceptable. Maximum concentration is need not to lock a wheel at low speeds or in the wet.

In crosswinds the bike can be deflected easily whereas the Kysiriums are viceless.
However, you soon compensate for this behaviour so it is not a major problem.

It depends what sort of ride experience you are looking for. I would say the Lightweights are quite 'technical' challenging wheels and I would say you need to be a very confident and experienced rider to feel ontop of them in extreme terrain. However, they are very rewarding to ride uphill in the mountains and strong without being harsh riding.

Another blessing is that having them forced me to start riding tubs again which I have not done since the seventies. Although rather impractical, tubs are a pleasure to ride - the gap between clinchers and tubs in terms of grip, puncture resistance and ride comfort surpised me.

I know there is a clincher version of the Lightweights out now/soon but I think there is still a gap between the best tubs and clincher tyres so I think it is worth the hassle to stick with tubs if spending this much.

BTW my Lightweight wheels came with an end of model year Focus Izalco.
The separate retail price of the wheels would have been two thirds of the cost of the whole bike. In pure performance terms this bike package is - because of the wheels - unmatched in my view.
I expect the wheels would dominate the rider experience of any bike they were added to.

Mark Alexander

I have found a price for them on the net and scared the hell out of myself. My options seem to be narrowing

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

APIII wrote:

I've got a pair. I bought a pair of Gen 1's about a year ago. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. They are a noticeable improvement on my Ksyriums in terms of stiffness and acceleration as you would expect. However, I had the misfortune to break a spoke in the rear wheel (it was covered by my home insurance, so I didn't need to remortgage the house), but it does mean I am conscious of damaging them when I'm out on the bike. To be honest, I don't want to be thinking about my wheels when I'm riding, I just want to ride, so most of the time I leave the Ksyriums on and save the Lightweights for special occasions.

can you notice the difference in acceleration between LWs and Ks??

Why, do you reckon he couldn't? :?

mathi

Yes i have 2 pairs , standard gen1s and a pair of gen2 ceramics .
The best wheel set i have ridden in my life 8)

TheGreatGatsby

OT - Mathi do you post up in weight weenies? I seem to remember a post in the for sale section about LW wheels that you may have for sale? Sorry if its not you.

I'd love a set of LW. I think I may have to save some pennies for them but I will get them.

Gats

wheeler585

Would love a pair but couldnt handle the the pressure on race day,as people would expect big things from the lightweight man!!

4kicks

Too true .I would have thought with lightweights you would expect NEVER to be overtaken on a climb..talk about pressure! Lovely looking wheels up close, mind you.

Pirahna

Mark Alexander wrote:

I have found a price for them on the net and scared the hell out of myself. My options seem to be narrowing

I was going to post the price but you seem to have sorted that bit. As mentioned post on Weight Weenies, also check out the Campag Hyperion, Reynolds and Bontrager carbon clinchers. The thing that would worry me with carbon clinchers is getting a sudden flat. Very easy to damage the rim, more so if it's a pinch on a pothole.

If you want lighter wheels then tubs are the way to go. Even a fairly cheap pair of wheels can come in close to 1300 grams, but then you've got the agro of puncturing with them. Having said that, nothing in the clincher world comes close to the ride quality of tubs.

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

APIII wrote:

I've got a pair. I bought a pair of Gen 1's about a year ago. I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with them. They are a noticeable improvement on my Ksyriums in terms of stiffness and acceleration as you would expect. However, I had the misfortune to break a spoke in the rear wheel (it was covered by my home insurance, so I didn't need to remortgage the house), but it does mean I am conscious of damaging them when I'm out on the bike. To be honest, I don't want to be thinking about my wheels when I'm riding, I just want to ride, so most of the time I leave the Ksyriums on and save the Lightweights for special occasions.

can you notice the difference in acceleration between LWs and Ks??

Why, do you reckon he couldn't? :?

no ... i reckon he could, although the rim weight difference will be less than 400g

although i agree with the view that there is a fair amount of placebo effect going on with bike gear ... I do think that most of us, especially when riding hard in a road race or crit could notice 400g odd additional weight on the rims. it's because accelerations are so tiring that i think even this small (in total system weight terms) amount is noticeable ... and of course the winning margins/difference between being dropped and not dropped in road racing can be tiny.

it would be interesting to settle this by getting two ostensibly identical wheelsets but one with 400g more weight at the rims and then do some runs and see how many riders correctly identify the heavier wheel. I am obviously speculating here, but i believe almost all of us would be able to tell the difference.

wheeler585

Its all in the legs baby!!

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

no ... i reckon he could, although the rim weight difference will be less than 400g

although i agree with the view that there is a fair amount of placebo effect going on with bike gear ... I do think that most of us, especially when riding hard in a road race or crit could notice 400g odd additional weight on the rims. it's because accelerations are so tiring that i think even this small (in total system weight terms) amount is noticeable ... and of course the winning margins/difference between being dropped and not dropped in road racing can be tiny.

it would be interesting to settle this by getting two ostensibly identical wheelsets but one with 400g more weight at the rims and then do some runs and see how many riders correctly identify the heavier wheel. I am obviously speculating here, but i believe almost all of us would be able to tell the difference.

As I said before, and you do presumably accept, the actual difference is of the order of 1% for 400g on the rim. If you look at it from a power perspective, then any of us on here are probably putting <300W into the acceleration by the time we're also providing the power to push us and the bike through the air, so only 3W more for the rim acceleration. That's less than the difference in aero drag between an R-Sys and a Zonda at 25mph, so do you think people could tell the difference between those two when accelerating? The lack of comments about how much riding an R-Sys is slowing people down would suggest not - but then I guess people aren't expecting to be slowed down by them. Alternatively it's also less than the difference between a Zipp 808 and a LW at 25mph, so if you want to accelerate fast, get an 808 not a LW!

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

no ... i reckon he could, although the rim weight difference will be less than 400g

although i agree with the view that there is a fair amount of placebo effect going on with bike gear ... I do think that most of us, especially when riding hard in a road race or crit could notice 400g odd additional weight on the rims. it's because accelerations are so tiring that i think even this small (in total system weight terms) amount is noticeable ... and of course the winning margins/difference between being dropped and not dropped in road racing can be tiny.

it would be interesting to settle this by getting two ostensibly identical wheelsets but one with 400g more weight at the rims and then do some runs and see how many riders correctly identify the heavier wheel. I am obviously speculating here, but i believe almost all of us would be able to tell the difference.

As I said before, and you do presumably accept, the actual difference is of the order of 1% for 400g on the rim. If you look at it from a power perspective, then any of us on here are probably putting <300W into the acceleration by the time we're also providing the power to push us and the bike through the air, so only 3W more for the rim acceleration. That's less than the difference in aero drag between an R-Sys and a Zonda at 25mph, so do you think people could tell the difference between those two when accelerating? The lack of comments about how much riding an R-Sys is slowing people down would suggest not - but then I guess people aren't expecting to be slowed down by them. Alternatively it's also less than the difference between a Zipp 808 and a LW at 25mph, so if you want to accelerate fast, get an 808 not a LW!

very true there is an aerodynamic aspect to this particular example, with LWs being more aero than ksyriums.

however, the only way you could settle the "is it a placebo effect" or can i actually feel the difference in weight debate is the way i've suggested ... a test in which the participants did not know in advance whether they were riding the heavier or lighter rim. You cannot resolve this through a calculation.

I'd actually really like to run this test if we can get the equipment together ... I don't believe it has ever been done and would add to our knowledge. My belief is that in hard riding with continual accelerations, 400g of additional rim weight would be perceptible.

wheeler585

Aracer just a quick question dont mean to be rude, but do you ride your bike as much as you take time working out equations. Just pedal the bloody thing!! As i said its all in the legs,its all ok working out these fancy equations but if you dont cut the mustard your out the back!! Give any pro cyclist any bike or any round wheel and he will run both you and me into the ground. And why?? Because he rides 6-8 hrs a day hard.......Its all in the legs baby!! 8)

mathi

, well said Rob .
Pressure while climbing hills - no people do not pass me when i am climbing ...
And yes i have a set of "lightweights " for sale that i had advertised on weightweenies but i got pissed about that much with stupid questions i stopped trying to sell them and told people they were sold :evil:

aracer

wheeler585 wrote:

Aracer just a quick question dont mean to be rude, but do you ride your bike as much as you take time working out equations.

Unfortunately, given I'm not a pro cyclist, but am a pro engineer I do spend more time with equations that riding a bike. Given it doesn't take me any longer to post on here with an equation than it does for somebody else to post with their seat of the pants experience, I don't see why my scientific postings should affect my riding any more than theirs do though.

wheeler585 wrote:

Give any pro cyclist any bike or any round wheel and he will run both you and me into the ground. And why?? Because he rides 6-8 hrs a day hard.......Its all in the legs baby!! 8)

Indeed - it's not about the bike (or the wheels), and training trumps kit every time. As is often suggested on here, most people would be better off spending their flash wheel budget on a training camp rather than the wheels. However if you do want to try and get an advantage through your equipment as it seems many here do, then you need to understand where the advantages actually are, and that's what the equations tell you, since bikes do obey the same laws of physics as everything else.

aracer

wildmoustache wrote:

very true there is an aerodynamic aspect to this particular example, with LWs being more aero than ksyriums.

But less aero than Zipps (everything is more aero than Ksyriums, apart from R-Sys that is )

however, the only way you could settle the "is it a placebo effect" or can i actually feel the difference in weight debate is the way i've suggested ... a test in which the participants did not know in advance whether they were riding the heavier or lighter rim. You cannot resolve this through a calculation.

If you want to determine whether people can feel the difference when accelerating, then that's true, the numbers won't tell you. However to get the 1% difference you are after (since the calculation does tell you that's what the difference is) you could just as well add 800g to the bike (preferably down by the bottom bracket where it wouldn't be obvious due to changing the handling of the bike) to perform the test. Arguably that's a better way to do it, since if you put the weight in the right place it should be less obvious than heavier rims - you could probably tell the difference in those from the handling. Also of course if you do change the wheels you have to ensure they are identical aerodynamically for the reasons mentioned above.

If you are thinking of performing a test like this (I'd actually be really interested in the result of removing the placebo effect), then do make sure it is a proper double blind test, where the person handing the bike to the rider doesn't know which is which either, as studies have shown that the placebo effect still exists if you don't.

wildmoustache

aracer wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

very true there is an aerodynamic aspect to this particular example, with LWs being more aero than ksyriums.

But less aero than Zipps (everything is more aero than Ksyriums, apart from R-Sys that is )

And a lot of the handbuilts that people wax lyrical about ...

however, the only way you could settle the "is it a placebo effect" or can i actually feel the difference in weight debate is the way i've suggested ... a test in which the participants did not know in advance whether they were riding the heavier or lighter rim. You cannot resolve this through a calculation.

If you want to determine whether people can feel the difference when accelerating, then that's true, the numbers won't tell you. However to get the 1% difference you are after (since the calculation does tell you that's what the difference is) you could just as well add 800g to the bike (preferably down by the bottom bracket where it wouldn't be obvious due to changing the handling of the bike) to perform the test. Arguably that's a better way to do it, since if you put the weight in the right place it should be less obvious than heavier rims - you could probably tell the difference in those from the handling. Also of course if you do change the wheels you have to ensure they are identical aerodynamically for the reasons mentioned above.

If you are thinking of performing a test like this (I'd actually be really interested in the result of removing the placebo effect), then do make sure it is a proper double blind test, where the person handing the bike to the rider doesn't know which is which either, as studies have shown that the placebo effect still exists if you don't.

the 800g at the BB would improve the handling so it also would not entirely isolate acceleration either, though it would isolate hub differences... hard to get perfection ... I did think about the two versions of cosmic carbone SL which had 200g difference ... probably not enough ... if we go down the wheel route we need someone to modify a set of wheels for us (without telling us which is which!)

the reason I'd like to test this is because the theoretical explanation doesn't seem to accord with people's real world experiences ... and I am not disputing the existence of placebo effects / justifications for wallet emptying sessions at sigma sport. BUT the numbers - for example - effectively treat human beings as machines, and do not allow for how fatiguing continual accelerations at full gas are ... the combined effect of these over a criterium race is, I would argue based on my experience, noticeably more tiring with heavier rims.

I also notice this when I'm training ... hard ... more like racing ... with the same groups of riders week after week ... admittedly the wheelsets I'm using differ in more respects than just the rime weight, though the heavier wheels in somes cases (e.g. shimano WHR-540) are more aerodynamic than some of the lighter wheels I've used.

Mark Alexander

How about planet x 82 rear and 50 front? Any other other combination?