spinning ?
ndodd
Posts: 54
why is it i seem to find pushing a higher gear easier than spinning a lower one is one better than the other or do different styles suit different people
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You need to practice, practice, practice to develop the fast contracting type of muscle fibre. Once mastered, keeping 70-90 rpm is much more efficient than grinding a high gear.Perpetuating the myth that Lincolnshire is flat.0
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Gerry Attrick wrote:Once mastered, keeping 70-90 rpm is much more efficient than grinding a high gear.
Not necessarily.0 -
It's because pushing a higher gear is easier than spinning. - you use less energy per kilometer traveled so by the usual definition it is MORE efficient. . The benefits of spinning are mainly in avoiding injury (especially to knees) . Your intial muscle types will favour one or the other and to switch needs quite a lot of training.0
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So how about naming all those riders from the days when high gears were the norm who are hobbling round with damaged knees?Zendog1 wrote:It's because pushing a higher gear is easier than spinning. - you use less energy per kilometer traveled so by the usual definition it is MORE efficient. . The benefits of spinning are mainly in avoiding injury (especially to knees) . Your intial muscle types will favour one or the other and to switch needs quite a lot of training.
As I have said many times before, that is one of the great cycling myths of the modern era.0 -
I dont understand, I just change gear to try to maintain the same cadence at all times. One in which I can maintain a steady pace without killing myself, which for me is also around 140 bpm heart rate.
Am I doing something wrong?0 -
hodsgod wrote:I dont understand, I just change gear to try to maintain the same cadence at all times. One in which I can maintain a steady pace without killing myself, which for me is also around 140 bpm heart rate.
Am I doing something wrong?
Nope, that's the way to do it.0 -
"So how about naming all those riders from the days when high gears were the norm who are hobbling round with damaged knees?
As I have said many times before, that is one of the great cycling myths of the modern era."
This is a beginners forum. I should be able to name a list of beginners who have bad knees ?
Smple fact - if you push a high gear the stresses in the knee are higher than spinning and encouraging untrained people to ignore this is irresponsible or just plain bloody stupid.0 -
It only become a fact if you can prove it.Zendog1 wrote:"So how about naming all those riders from the days when high gears were the norm who are hobbling round with damaged knees?
As I have said many times before, that is one of the great cycling myths of the modern era."
This is a beginners forum. I should be able to name a list of beginners who have bad knees ?
Smple fact - if you push a high gear the stresses in the knee are higher than spinning and encouraging untrained people to ignore this is irresponsible or just plain bloody stupid.
Until comparatively recently 42*21 was the lowest gear most cyclists rode, many used 42*19. With fewer cogs available there was no option. So if big gears damage your knees there must be plenty of old cyclists about who can't walk, especially time trialists who often used a single 56 chainring with a 13-17 block.
Big gears might not nescessaraly be efficient, but that's where it stops.0 -
I spin in a low gear all the time on hills. When I mentioned this to the staff at my LBS when we were talking about getting out of the saddle on hills, they though it was very unusual, but it works for me. I find if I try to stay in a higher gear and get out of the saddle, my heart rate goes uncomfortably high, and I tire very quickly. Spinning in a low gear, I can maintain the same speed with what feels like a much lower effort.
I also suffer a bit with my knees. Since I've been concentrating on maintaining a higher cadence all the time, I've had much less trouble with them.0 -
Smokin Joe wrote:Zendog1 wrote:" So if big gears damage your knees there must be plenty of old cyclists about who can't walk, especially time trialists who often used a single 56 chainring with a 13-17 block.
Big gears might not nescessaraly be efficient, but that's where it stops.
If you're averaging 28/30 mph then 56x13/17 are not too big gears.
56 x 15 @ 100 rpm = 30 mph
Check out the hour record stats and you will find 99% of the rides were done with a cadence of over 100 rpm. Myth it isn't. 0 -
I hardly ever get out of the saddle except on very short hills. Still can not spin up them though. I used to use a 43* 23 bottom gear in the 60s as that was about as low as you could get and have a decent range of gears. I now have a 34*27 but do not use it much. Just nice to know it is there if required.
As for the knees. Mine are OK after 65 years. Still racing road and MTB.
Mike 56*15 @100 rpm is 'only' 27.5MPH. http://www.fixedwheel.co.uk/tech.htm
I got by with a 52ring with a 14 to 18 block. Never beat the hour though.0 -
Mike 56*15 @100 rpm is 'only' 27.5MPH. http://www.fixedwheel.co.uk/tech.htm
Erm. It all depends on the size of the wheel. Using that gear table to give 27.5mph would mean my tyres would be completely compressed to the rim. Rough calc:
(27.5*1600 / 60) / (100*56/15) gives a rollout of 1.96m or a wheel diameter (including tyre compression) of 62.5cm, which is less than the rim diameter of all my wheels from 1980's GL330 tubs to my current clinchers.[/i]0 -
56 x 15 27" wheel @100 rpm = 30 mph.
56/15 x 27" = 100.8" gear
Formula Speed (mph) = Gear (inches) x Cadence (rpm) divided by 336
100.8 x 100 = 10080; 10080 divided by 336 = 30 mph .
If you believe in riding fast using big gears @ less than 85 rpm then that's your choice. It's a different technique to riding at the same speed @ 95/100rpm. IMO it's well worth devoting some training time to learning how to pedal fast as it develops your riding skills.0 -
Guys like Engers rarely uesed the 15 sprocket, they were mainly on the 13. The first time I saw Beryl Burton in a time trial I could not believe how low her cadance was.
I am not claiming that using high gears is more efficient, just that it does not lead to knee damage. If that was the case then runners and footballers would be cripples after a few seasons, the impact loading on the knees in those sports is far higher than you will ever get on a bike.0 -
Quote from Fixed Wheel website.
27" clinchers went out with the ark did'nt they, but perhaps we are splitting hairs here.I have used 26.4" as the wheel size because this relates to a 700x21 clincher or a standard tub.
I think most riders will benefit from riding in a range from 70 to 100 rpm most of the time. We are not all built the same and some will find a faster cadence is more natural than others. The ones who amaze me are the ones, usually on a 'touring bike' who ride at 12 to 15 mph on a 90" gear while I am using a 63" comfortably, then as soon as the road goes up a little they hit the granny ring and go straight out the back. My normal cadence in a 10 mile TT is around 85 but I can not hold this into a head wind by changing down. I slow too much. I am faster by changing down less and dropping the cadence to around 75. Back in the 60s I did a 1-1 for a 25 TT on a 71" fixed which is over 110 rpm but could not do this now. As you say Mike, it may be a good idea to train for this and I may improve but I am a little long in the tooth to change too much.0 -
Look at the cadences Lance Armstrong used. He tended to spin quite a bit faster than many other pros.Perpetuating the myth that Lincolnshire is flat.0
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Smokin Joe wrote:I am not claiming that using high gears is more efficient, just that it does not lead to knee damage. If that was the case then runners and footballers would be cripples after a few seasons, the impact loading on the knees in those sports is far higher than you will ever get on a bike.
I think the stress on the knees during running and football is totally different to the stress on the knees from cycling. I run as well as cycle, and have absolutely no problems from just running. It's as soon as I add cycling into the mix that I tend to get odd twinges of pain in my knees.0 -
To clarify the gear/speed issue, I stand corrected. I have always assumed 27" as the diameter of the wheel but having measured mine it is 26.75" with inflated tyre. Using this instead of 27" means that 56/15 @ 100rpm = 29.72mph, so it's there or thereabouts about 30mph, and for all intents and purposes it's the same as make no difference.
I only saw Beryl Burton ride once and it was when she was warming up before a 100 mile TT in Yorkshire. Well to be strictll accurate she was riding out to the event. I didn't know who it was until we had passed her in a car but I remarked to my father in lawwho was driving how impressed I was with the smooth pedalling style of the rider on the road who was pedalling quite fast.
In the race itself I've no doubt that she used a high gear at a slower cadence if Smokin Joe says that's what she did as I've no way of knowing any different. In a race itself unless you use a computer which I don't it's all about feel and comfort. I could be rdining @ 90, 95 rpm or 100 rpm and sometimes all three in the same event, depending on the terrain and the weather conditions on the course.
I've used big gears. I had to as my ratios were 56 x 13/14/15/16 only. So at times into the wind or uphill with a bottom gear of 56 x 16 I must have been pedalling @ 80 rpm doing around 23 mph. IMO though it's still better technique to pedal @ 95/100 rpm in your bread and butter gears most of the time.
I don't think that pedalling big gears slowly impacts on the joints too much but it certainly places more strain on the glutes and the back at peak power. In longer events the power output is lower so not so much of a problem. I believe that for a 10 mile TT I was at my best when in a gear of 100 " @ 100 rpm0 -
If riding big gears is not a problem, then why are juveniles on restricted gearing? To make them go slower?0
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So they learn to pedal efficiently. Not for medical reasons.oldwelshman wrote:If riding big gears is not a problem, then why are juveniles on restricted gearing? To make them go slower?0 -
you need to do some research into muscle physiology to understand why some of us favour pushing higher gears than others. There many other factors to consider such as distance, speed , stamina, cardio vascular fitness.etc
People have differant muscle physiology and you cannot vary that by much, it is largely genetically determined .
There is no simple black and white answer to this question. People have won cycling competitions using either or both methods.
Watch the pack on Le Tour de France and you will see lots of varying cadence used by top athletes in the same pack at the same time !0 -
Peanut is right here. There is no hard and fast rule to fit all. Extremes in either direction are bad as while they may not actualy do harm they are inefficient. Grinding at 50 or lower is hard on the muscles and joints and you can not respond quickly either. Reving faster than you are comfortable with is hard on the cardio-respiratory system and you still can not respond quickly. Armstrong is often given as a good example but he was a one off, very few could match him. Most of us could not come near. I used to say thay I had nearly the same figures as him. I was the same weight and height but unfortunatley was twice the age with half the power. The result was somewhat different.0
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Smokin Joe wrote:
So they learn to pedal efficiently. Not for medical reasons.oldwelshman wrote:If riding big gears is not a problem, then why are juveniles on restricted gearing? To make them go slower?
Err OK you asked for evedence, "me"
I once lost 4 months after using a fixed during winter which was not really suitable due to the number of hills where I lived.
I had really bad pain in the back of the knee and I was only doing cycling at the time, nothing else so nothing else could have done it.
I was told by GP I had "cyclists" knee, I wonder where the name came from and it was casued by strain on the ligaments and tendons.
I personally believe it does cause problems using too high a gear and this is definately worse in the winter when the knee joint is colder.
I also believe the reason juniors and juviniles are restricted gears is mnore to do with them still growing and to reduce risk of joint damage and nothing to do with pedalling efficiency but will be happy to concede on that if you can provide evidence 0 -
Can we get this thread back to sanity?
ProTour riders are genetic freaks and have no relevance to "normal" riders.
Knee damage is just that damage - sensible peaple back off and do not end up crippled.
Riding a high gear is more effecient (feels easier) than spinning but the higher stress on joints raises the possibility of damage.0 -
take lance armstrong and jan ullrich, lance tends to spin lower gears and get the legs going like pistons and he takes that mind set that his legs are the bikes pistons, which obviously works for him where as jan prefers to churn slowly on higher gears. why? two very different styles both being very effective.0
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I spoke to my physio about this last week; she has plenty of cyclist patients who have messed up their knees. They may not all have done it through pushing big gears but she certainly advocates high cadence as the best method to protect the knees.Smokin Joe wrote:So how about naming all those riders from the days when high gears were the norm who are hobbling round with damaged knees?
As I have said many times before, that is one of the great cycling myths of the modern era.0 -
OK, so here is a real newby's question:
My cycle computer does not have a cadence function, so how do I judge whether I am doing 80 or 100 rpm?
I tend to stick to around 80 rpm when on a bike in the gym & find it easy to cope with over a session & try to stick with my best guess at spinning cadence when I am out on the road (except the hills of course).
Having just bought a new bike & would like to start out with good habits as I have not ridden a 'proper' road bike for many years.
ThanksRide On ...0 -
dessertwarrior wrote:OK, so here is a real newby's question:
My cycle computer does not have a cadence function, so how do I judge whether I am doing 80 or 100 rpm?
I tend to stick to around 80 rpm when on a bike in the gym & find it easy to cope with over a session & try to stick with my best guess at spinning cadence when I am out on the road (except the hills of course).
Having just bought a new bike & would like to start out with good habits as I have not ridden a 'proper' road bike for many years.
Thanks
Don't worry about it, you will find your natural cadence so go with that.
There is actually no proof whatsoever either way which is more efficient or not, high or low cadence irrespective of what anyone says on here, there are many articles on the net and most of them agree that there is no "optimum" cadence for any sort of riding.
I do however believe (from experience) that using really high gears and low cadence in winter and cold is not good for knee joints.0
