Aero - cost effective and most important upgrades
Comments
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aracer wrote:As I mentioned before, the helmet is worth more than the front wheel.
method - the report in your second post pretty much agrees with my comments - either of the behind saddle setups are worse than a bottle on the downtube.
Where's the evidence to support this (genuinely interesetd not challenging) as I have just done a couple of TT's on a full on TT bike with cosmic carboenes and did not go significantly faster that I would/have done on my road bike with clip in bars and fulcrum R3's.
Therefore, I am assuming that the aero benefits are offset by the loss of power in a more severe/different position, so am reluctant to invest in a new bike for half a dozen races a year when a better sero set up on my road bike is probably much more cost effective. Generally accpeted wisdom amongst club riders (so mostly anecdotal from subjective exeperience) puts the priority as follows:
Position (tri-bars)
Wheels (greater than 30mm section ideally <50mm)
Helmet
clothing etc
Incidentally, anyone got any reccomnedation on tri-bars? I use the cheapo profile century bars which are too short, and also the arm rests are too high so I need bars that sit closer to the handlebars to get a lower position, plus a longer reach. I was then thinking of a set of deep section carbon wheels, but if a helmet is more effective than I'm open minded....0 -
Profile Design bars are pretty good I think , the 3 cyclists in my family all use them, the cheapo ones, carbon stryke and a pair of 15 year old customised bars.0
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I've just bought some Oval A710 on the basis of their adjustability, and alternative extension bar upgrade potential, and only £70 odd. <Most important I can get the arm pads pretty close to the bars, which you can't with the cheap Profile Century ones I currently use0
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Hi folks.
Sorry - been away else I would have dived into this thread much earlier.
I'm not going to disagree with the majority opinon above, it is all about position, position, position. Next comes helmet and wheel choice.
For longer distance races, the aero bottle mounted between the tri bars had the huge advantage that you don't need to sit up to drink. Which means that you'll be sipping much more regularly, and staying in the aero position while doing so. For tri you need to start that run fully hydrated - you can get away with a lot, lot less fluid in a time trial.
The best piece of advice I can give you is, once you've found the right aero position for you - train in it. Often.
I'll be riding to work tomorrow on the Cervelo tucked down on those bars, I save the road bike for group rides.
Which aero bars? Whichever ones work for you. Weight doesn't matter here and carbon bars don't offer any advantages. I have found the cheaper Profile ones tend to fall apart though. l've had good results with sub-8 andn vision tech stuff.
Cheers, Andy0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:Where's the evidence to support this (genuinely interesetd not challenging) as I have just done a couple of TT's on a full on TT bike with cosmic carboenes and did not go significantly faster that I would/have done on my road bike with clip in bars and fulcrum R3's.
Therefore, I am assuming that the aero benefits are offset by the loss of power in a more severe/different position, so am reluctant to invest in a new bike for half a dozen races a year when a better sero set up on my road bike is probably much more cost effective. Generally accpeted wisdom amongst club riders (so mostly anecdotal from subjective exeperience) puts the priority as follows:
Hi Steve.
Yes - the aero position is all about a compromise between comfort, power generation and aerodynamics. You can train your body to overcome the initial obstacles in those first two things - takes time though.
As an example for you - I've got a regular session I do which is (roughly) a 7 minute bike loop, followed by a 5 minute run, which I do 4 times over, all at pretty much flat out pace. I did this last week and alternated between my aero wheels (65mm dish front, rear disc) and a set of ultegra 32 spoke training wheels. I was consistently 10 to 15 seconds faster on the aero wheels. This was with the same bike, same position, same helmet. On the same day on the same course, giving it pretty much the same effort.
Not 100% scientific, but if you multiply it up then the wheels alone would be worth at least 30 seconds on a 10m TT course.
Cheers, Andy0 -
1 Postition (incl tribars), 2 Helmet and 3 wheels. I'm not a big fan of Profile stuff either - had too many pairs literally fall apart on me over the years. I've got a pair of Easton carbon clip-ons which are very light, low profile and stiff. I've heard good things about Vision Tech and Oval stuff too.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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I treated myself to a Specialised Transition Pro this year after riding many years on a converted road bike. I have not yet needed to put a bottle cage on as my longest TT has been a 30 but when I do it appears it should be a front mounted one or an aero down tube bottle.
With regards to position the lower tilted forward position has not yet enabled me to go any faster and I am now thinking this is because it is because it is not my natural pedalling style. Being much more over the BB means that I am just pushing down whereas previously I was pushing over the top and clawing my foot over the top and down - pedalling more of the circle. Also on the normal road bike one seems to have more a flat back position which may not be so low at the front but I suspect could be just as aerodynamic. Due to UCI rules the pros cannot go too far over the BB yet they still produce some awesome times. From what I remember the forward tilted position was introduced by triathletes because it was thought to be easier on the running legs after the transition. I am now experimenting by pushing my saddle back as far as it will go and highering my bars. I only ride my TT bike once per week in competition and never train on it so perhaps that is where I am going wrong but I do not feel very safe riding in traffic on a low pro.0 -
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one thing to note is that you need to practice a fair bit to get the benefits from new equipment. example is aero helmets. first time i used one i thought it very wierd compared to a normal helmet and if anything it ends up being offputting. position is the classic one ... you need to work a lot at it to get the benefits.
so some of this equipment gives you a benefit without practice (e.g. aero front wheel), but some of the rest of it takes some getting used to or working at.0 -
Almost certainly the issue - you're simply not used to the position. A forward position bike shouldn't actually change your pedalling action at all - what should happen is that you keep the same hip angle but the whole position is rotated forwards, so you're still pedalling the same but where you were before pushing down you're now pushing down and slightly backwards. Instead of pushing over the top you are now pushing on the first part of the down, but you should in compensation also now be pushing the first part of the up. If you're not getting a flat back (but are on a normal road bike) that also suggests you're possibly not that well positioned on it. Get somebody to help you with this (when I first got my proper TT bike I got somebody to video me whilst I adjusted the position with an ergostem).Old Tuggo wrote:II only ride my TT bike once per week in competition and never train on it so perhaps that is where I am going wrong but I do not feel very safe riding in traffic on a low pro.0 -
Monty Dog wrote:1 Postition (incl tribars), 2 Helmet and 3 wheels. I'm not a big fan of Profile stuff either - had too many pairs literally fall apart on me over the years. I've got a pair of Easton carbon clip-ons which are very light, low profile and stiff. I've heard good things about Vision Tech and Oval stuff too.
Where's the evidence for helmet over wheels?????? I'd rather not shell out £500 on a set of carbon wheels if a helmet it considerably less money is going to give a bigger benefit?Hi Steve.
Yes - the aero position is all about a compromise between comfort, power generation and aerodynamics. You can train your body to overcome the initial obstacles in those first two things - takes time though.
As an example for you - I've got a regular session I do which is (roughly) a 7 minute bike loop, followed by a 5 minute run, which I do 4 times over, all at pretty much flat out pace. I did this last week and alternated between my aero wheels (65mm dish front, rear disc) and a set of ultegra 32 spoke training wheels. I was consistently 10 to 15 seconds faster on the aero wheels. This was with the same bike, same position, same helmet. On the same day on the same course, giving it pretty much the same effort.
Not 100% scientific, but if you multiply it up then the wheels alone would be worth at least 30 seconds on a 10m TT course.
Cheers, Andy
Thanks Andy for the info on wheels - stacks up with other anecdotal evidence I have heard, bit never before have I hear that a helmet is worth more (or indeed even the same!)0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:Monty Dog wrote:1 Postition (incl tribars), 2 Helmet and 3 wheels. I'm not a big fan of Profile stuff either - had too many pairs literally fall apart on me over the years. I've got a pair of Easton carbon clip-ons which are very light, low profile and stiff. I've heard good things about Vision Tech and Oval stuff too.
Where's the evidence for helmet over wheels?????? I'd rather not shell out £500 on a set of carbon wheels if a helmet it considerably less money is going to give a bigger benefit?Hi Steve.
Yes - the aero position is all about a compromise between comfort, power generation and aerodynamics. You can train your body to overcome the initial obstacles in those first two things - takes time though.
As an example for you - I've got a regular session I do which is (roughly) a 7 minute bike loop, followed by a 5 minute run, which I do 4 times over, all at pretty much flat out pace. I did this last week and alternated between my aero wheels (65mm dish front, rear disc) and a set of ultegra 32 spoke training wheels. I was consistently 10 to 15 seconds faster on the aero wheels. This was with the same bike, same position, same helmet. On the same day on the same course, giving it pretty much the same effort.
Not 100% scientific, but if you multiply it up then the wheels alone would be worth at least 30 seconds on a 10m TT course.
Cheers, Andy
Thanks Andy for the info on wheels - stacks up with other anecdotal evidence I have heard, bit never before have I hear that a helmet is worth more (or indeed even the same!)
Don't treat it as an either or!! The higher the speed the more it's worth as well. So, for example, if you buy aero wheels, they will increase your speed, and they will also increase the additional speed gain from adding an aero helmet into the mix.0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:Monty Dog wrote:1 Postition (incl tribars), 2 Helmet and 3 wheels. I'm not a big fan of Profile stuff either - had too many pairs literally fall apart on me over the years. I've got a pair of Easton carbon clip-ons which are very light, low profile and stiff. I've heard good things about Vision Tech and Oval stuff too.
Where's the evidence for helmet over wheels?????? I'd rather not shell out £500 on a set of carbon wheels if a helmet it considerably less money is going to give a bigger benefit?
From windtunnel testing. Couldn't provide you with a reference, but I've seen the same (if not commented as much earlier in this thread). It fits with commonsense too (not that that's a good endorsement for aero, a lot of which is non-intuitive) given your head is a much bigger lump in the airflow than a wheel. Of course if you shell out for wheels and a helmet you get the benefit of both!0 -
It fits with commonsense too (not that that's a good endorsement for aero, a lot of which is non-intuitive) given your head is a much bigger lump in the airflow than a wheel.
Why? Ok a head isnt tear drop shaped, but its not the most un-aero part of your body. All you are doing is reducing the turbulent flow over the rear of the head, not changing the CdA much, unless you put a pointed face mask on....
This is quite interesting, but unfortunately doesnt compare the effect of an aero helmet :roll:0 -
andrewgturnbull wrote:Tuggo - you want one of these:
Thanks Andy it looks just the job and it will match the frame.0 -
This is a bit controversial:
http://www.nytro.com/Articles.asp?ID=119
an aero frameset is worth so much more than wheels or a helmet??0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:This is a bit controversial:
http://www.nytro.com/Articles.asp?ID=119
an aero frameset is worth so much more than wheels or a helmet??
Well, you saw it on the internet, so it must be true. I would say that these guys are
trying to sell frames, not helmets. Much more money in selling you a frame, so they tell you that it's much more aero than any old wheels or helmets. At least that's my take.
Dennis Noward0 -
I wish I could remember where, but I also remember reading the results of wind tunnel testing which showed that an aero helmet, worn by a rider already riding with a good position, cut down the drag a lot more than even the best aero wheels. Obviously if you can have both, do, but if you are on a budget, you won't get better bang for your buck than dropping < £100 on an aero helmet.0
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leonlikestrees wrote:I wish I could remember where, but I also remember reading the results of wind tunnel testing which showed that an aero helmet, worn by a rider already riding with a good position, cut down the drag a lot more than even the best aero wheels. Obviously if you can have both, do, but if you are on a budget, you won't get better bang for your buck than dropping < £100 on an aero helmet.
Considering that the cheapest decent looking aero wheels are Plant X's at what £500+ a pair then this is exectly the conclusion I'm coming too....0 -
The Xentis tests quote this at 45kph:
Test 1: Normal road race bike with Velomax Circuit wheels: 426 Watts
Test 2: Normal road race bike with aero bars: 395 Watts
Test 3: TT bike with normal helmet: 372 Watts
Test 4: TT bike with aero helmet: 366 Watts
Test 5: TT bike with aero helmet and Zipp 909 pair: 352 Watts
Test 6: TT bike with aero helmet and Lightweight deep dish: 377 Watts
Test 7: TT bike with aero helmet and Xentis 4-spoke front and rear: 349 Watts
Test 8: TT bike with aero helmet and X-treme Windcheeter 3-spoke front and rear: 370 Watts
Test 9: TT bike with aero helmet and Velomax Circuit training wheels: 387 Watts
From that it looks like the bike and wheels could be a considerably bigger saving than the helmet and it looks roughly in line with Nyto's estimates.0 -
This months C+ test of the new Zipp wheels quotes a 20w saving....0
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Does anyone know where to get one of those specilized aero bottles? My dad had pre ordered one from a bike shop at the start of the year where they were selling them for £10, bottle and cage compared to some like Bontrager that were £40 for almost exactly the same thing but they keep putting the release date forward.andrewgturnbull wrote:Tuggo - you want one of these:0 -
JC.152 wrote:Does anyone know where to get one of those specilized aero bottles? My dad had pre ordered one from a bike shop at the start of the year where they were selling them for £10, bottle and cage compared to some like Bontrager that were £40 for almost exactly the same thing but they keep putting the release date forward.
Hi there.
Ask or search on http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk - those guys will know.
Cheers, Andy0
