Light touring/audax frame - steel or titanium?

blorg

I have been considering a new frame for light touring and when unloaded for general day rides, etc. When I do tour it is generally relatively light, with up to maybe 5-10kg on a rear rack and 1-2kg in a bar bag.

I guess I would ideally be looking for something that can be light-ish when unloaded but decent with a little bit of weight on. I'll probably only tour loaded two weeks of the year max but am cycling unloaded for the other 50.

I have a 2007 model Trek 5000 road bike with damaged frame and fork and considering transferring over the components from this to another frame. It's a triple, 105 shifters, Ultegra derailleurs, Cane Creek caliper brakes, Bontrager wheels, cranks and finishing kit. Components are pretty good condition all round. I have toured extensively on a heavier bike with the same gearing, so that is fine.

Plan would be to transfer the existing components over as is as a bike for fast day rides and general unloaded use.

I guess I would then consider the option of changing wheels/tyres/brakes and adding beefier tyres and mudguards for loaded touring in the future. Although I generally tour on a 700x25s and pray for sunshine so not sure how essential the wheel change might actually be. Would like clearance for thicker though in case trails were involved as on the Camino de Santiago this year (did ~25% on trail using 700x35s.)

I was considering something like a King of Mercia but then got to thinking of the Van Nicholas Amazon titanium frame. I can get this (with fork+headset) for around £170 more than a King of Mercia in 725 tubing. I'd have to change the calipers for cantilevers if I went for the Van Nicholas but this would not be a big deal, would have change the brakes long term anyway if I wanted mudguards; arguably the Amazon having canti bosses would be an advantage over long reach calipers. The King of Mercia looks nicer (IMHO), but the Van Nicholas might look better with the components I am transferring. And ultimately I am more concerned about ride quality; if the Van Nicholas is lighter and more comfortable I think I would go with that. It seems to be coming in a little under 9kg with the components I am looking at moving. Price isn't an overriding concern.

Any opinions?

paul_smith_srcc

well if you want 700 x 32/5c for possible trails that would mean Van Nicholas Amazon over their Yukon model, the latter being the more popular choice for lightweight touring, it will struggle on tracks though, which is whjy I assume you are correctly thinking along the lines of the Amazon model.

The King of Mercia is comparable to the Amazon, having caliper brakes it will not have such generous clearances for tracks, although it will take 32mm tyres you will probably find that the clearance between the tyres and guard will be close. In your case Mercian also offer "If wider tyres are preferred we can accommodate these with a wide fork crown and cranked chainstays to give provision for "V" brakes or cantilever brakes", which would give better clearance for the tracks you may ride on.

You conclude with "ultimately I am more concerned about ride quality", both will give a comfortable ride, Steel is after all condusive to a comfortable frame when built in the geometry of the King of Mercia , the Amazon being Titanium will also be extremely comfortable; to an extent you pays your money you takes your choice, both will do what you want.

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

blorg wrote:

I have been considering a new frame for light touring and when unloaded for general day rides, etc. When I do tour it is generally relatively light, with up to maybe 5-10kg on a rear rack and 1-2kg in a bar bag.

I guess I would ideally be looking for something that can be light-ish when unloaded but decent with a little bit of weight on. I'll probably only tour loaded two weeks of the year max but am cycling unloaded for the other 50.

I have a 2007 model Trek 5000 road bike with damaged frame and fork and considering transferring over the components from this to another frame. It's a triple, 105 shifters, Ultegra derailleurs, Cane Creek caliper brakes, Bontrager wheels, cranks and finishing kit. Components are pretty good condition all round. I have toured extensively on a heavier bike with the same gearing, so that is fine.

Plan would be to transfer the existing components over as is as a bike for fast day rides and general unloaded use.

I guess I would then consider the option of changing wheels/tyres/brakes and adding beefier tyres and mudguards for loaded touring in the future. Although I generally tour on a 700x25s and pray for sunshine so not sure how essential the wheel change might actually be. Would like clearance for thicker though in case trails were involved as on the Camino de Santiago this year (did ~25% on trail using 700x35s.)

I was considering something like a King of Mercia but then got to thinking of the Van Nicholas Amazon titanium frame. I can get this (with fork+headset) for around £170 more than a King of Mercia in 725 tubing. I'd have to change the calipers for cantilevers if I went for the Van Nicholas but this would not be a big deal, would have change the brakes long term anyway if I wanted mudguards; arguably the Amazon having canti bosses would be an advantage over long reach calipers. The King of Mercia looks nicer (IMHO), but the Van Nicholas might look better with the components I am transferring. And ultimately I am more concerned about ride quality; if the Van Nicholas is lighter and more comfortable I think I would go with that. It seems to be coming in a little under 9kg with the components I am looking at moving. Price isn't an overriding concern.

Any opinions?

blorg

Thanks for that info Paul. Most of the time I wouldn't need the clearance (when I next do the Camino it will be on a mountain bike) but it can be nice to have.

I have read all your touring reports and comments on many topics both here and on the CTC forums, which have been very helpful. Am I right in saying that you toured on steel for a long time (I see a red Pearson in the photos) but got a Van Nicholas recently? What is your personal opinion on this- do you still tour on both, or use one or other for the longer/shorter tours?

paul_smith_srcc

Yes I have two similar bikes in steel that I have had for what must be approaching twenty years in Steel, both badged Pearson and built by Dave Yates who built the Pearson steel frames back then (they don’t use Dave now I believe), I was the manager at Pearson Cycles for 15 years and the first thing I did was introduce a quality frame builder, I had used Dave for our 'Revel' frames when I worked at ‘Freewheel’ the mail order division of Madison, the UK cycle wholesaler for amongst other things Shimano. The blue one is my club riding and commute bike, the red one I used for tours. Although now very similar in spec’ the club riding/commute bike was ridden for years as single fixed.

Having them for that long I think you can safely conclude that I have been very happy with them, 73/73 Audax geometry gives comfortable yet quick ride and I am able to fit mudguards and carry a load, only negative thing is that they shimmy a bit when carrying even something as small as a rack bag, I am aware of that though so providing I don’t attempt riding with no hands they are OK. Although the same age and geometry the red one has never been a lively as the blue one.

Both as you can see are both old and have done high mileage, although they look in good condition, in part as I look after them and also because I have both re enameled, I am sensitive to the fact they are rusting from the inside, should the red one begin to fail on tour then I could potentially ruin a holiday so I have treated myself and replaced the frame my tour bike with a Titanium frame (that is review of it), as you can see I have added new wheels/bars/stem and seat post, swapping the originals to the blue Pearson which is why the two seem so similar as in some cases they are the same items, the pictures were taken at different times!

As you can tell from that review I am very pleased with it, Titanium is a perfect material for an Audax bike, in many ways an evolution of steel, strong, it is extremely comfortable as Titanium absorbs resonance well, relatively light and robust, plus durable as Titanium will not even rust, which appealed to me as that is the only reason I am replacing the steel tour bike in the first place. Unlike my Pearson bikes it is 73/72 so I expect it to be slightly more stable when loaded, it feels just as lively, if not slightly better.

Steel has a place in the market though and rightly so, many like the feel good factor of knowing who built their frame and the traditional craftsmen ship that has gone into it. However time changes nearly everything, modern materials and construction methods mean that manufacture is more about engineering now, with Titanium especially many frames are manufactured by companies from other industries that have specialised in high quality manufacturer using Titanium. The effort seems to be in R & D and the design, the manufacturer simply needs to do what the designer has specified, the result is that you no longer need to have a frame hand built by a craftsman to get a superb quality product. Titanium is a good example of this evolution, many of the manufacturers are from the Aircraft Industry and the engineering quality is there for you to see. Of course the other thing that has changed over the years is country of origin, like it or not the days when a product came from the far east was inferior, at least when you compare the frames from the popular Titanium manufacturers are long gone.

Nearly all are marketed by small independent specialists, Giant, Trek and Specialized do not use Titanium frames, price will vary quite a lot, in part this can be down to country of manufacturer. Of the well known brands:

Litespeed andMerlin are American owned and made in the USA,

Derosa are Italian owned and made in Italy,

The three above will be at the higher end of the price ranges and are most prolific in the race bike market, so for Audax Touring these may be of interest:

'Van Nicholas' are Dutch owned and designed, the frames made in China, they have two suitable models Yukon that I have mentioned and more robust Amazon with larger clearances for 700 x 32c tyres that we referred to in the above post.

Enigma are UK owned and designed, the frames made in Taiwan I believe, their Etape model is suitable for Audax, their Amazon model is called Excel

Both 'Van Nicholas' and 'Enigma' will be cheaper than the American and Italian frames that I mentioned, although it is a matter of opinion these days as to if quality from the Americans or Europeans is indeed better than those from either Taiwan or China, as the quality of the latter, especially from the two above is indeed now extremely good.

There are some others that are coming through, although not all do a standard Audax or touring bike (as yet), Sunday Bicycles (made in China), Burls (made in Russia) and Condor Cycles plus a few manufacturers in China that you can deal direct like Xacd another you may have heard of are Setavento, although they have just stopped trading.

These links may also be of interest:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

http://www.vannicholas.com/ResLib/WbmTitanium.aspx

http://www.caree.org/bike101framematerials.htm

In conclusion a well made frame of good design in Titanium is an ideal choice for Audax and Touring bikes, which is why I find it a little unusual that they don't all offer one.

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

blorg wrote:

Thanks for that info Paul. Most of the time I wouldn't need the clearance (when I next do the Camino it will be on a mountain bike) but it can be nice to have.

I have read all your touring reports and comments on many topics both here and on the CTC forums, which have been very helpful. Am I right in saying that you toured on steel for a long time (I see a red Pearson in the photos) but got a Van Nicholas recently? What is your personal opinion on this- do you still tour on both, or use one or other for the longer/shorter tours?

blorg

Thanks for all the info Paul. I went for the Amazon in the end and just got it back yesterday with all the stuff transferred over. My, what a ride, it is absolutely fantastic. Light, fast and mega-comfortable, even more so than the carbon bike it replaced. Have a Tortec Ultra Light rack on order from Bikeplus and will probably go with SKS mudguards.

Only issue I have is the cantilevers- they are the basic Shimano Altus ones and braking is pretty crap compared to calipers on my road bike or the V-brakes on my hybrid. To give you an idea how bad, if I JAM on the front brake full power, the bike just comes to a gradual stop. If I did that on the road bike or hybrid I would be over the bars. Reckon I can stop the road bike in around half the distance of the Amazon.

I have the same Altus cantis on another bike and had the same experience of them so didn't want them on this but there seems to have been a bit of confusion ordering and that is what I ended up with. Would changing these for Shimano BR-550, Avid Shorty or Tektro Oryx help, or are cantis with STI levers basically all the same from a stopping power point of view? Would V-brakes with a travel agent be a better idea?

Carpe Diem

Hi, dont go for the Avids! I had them on my Carpe Diem (the airborne equivilant of your bike) they squeeled and juddered.

I have fitted Campag Veloce mini Vee's as recommended by Paul Hewitt, he fits them with STI levers on his top end touring bikes.

They cost £30 I think? but are excellent. Previous to these I had XTR canti's that were quite good but the Vee's are better.

blorg

Thanks for that advice- are these the STI-specific ones that don't need a travel agent doubler? Sounds like a plan.

Carpe Diem

Yes that is correct

bof

Am thinking of Titanium, but I want a bike I can eventually take to remote places. The recommendation has always been steel for that, as you can find steel welding for frame repairs anywhere.

Given that Titanium doesnt rust does it in practice get a failure that needs welding, except in circumstances that would probably wreck your tour anyway?

blorg

Personally I think that whole "need something that can be welded" thinking is nuts. Titanium is more durable anyway (from the rusting point of view) but when have you ever had a frame failure anyway? I have had plenty of other stuff go (wheels, derailleurs, forks.)

I've been cycling for circa fifteen years now and I have had exactly one frame failure which was a recent serious head-on crash at speed on carbon. And even that was a technical failure, in the sense of "better be safe than sorry as it's carbon," the frame was still very much in one piece, with a bent fork steerer.

I think if I was going to do a "round the world" year long type thing I would swap out the carbon fork on this for a steel one, but otherwise I wouldn't be concerned. You are more likely to have your bike robbed entirely, or be shot by bandits, than have a frame failure.

How long have you been cycling- ever had a frame failure? I've crashed both steel and aluminum badly before (bent forks) but in each case the frame has been absolutely fine.

nun

I'll put a plug in for some US made bikes, they might be worth a look now that the dollar
is so weak.

Independent Fabrications do a number of frames that would work well for you

http://www.ifbikes.com/frames2/steelindependence.shtml
http://www.ifbikes.com/frames2/steelclubracer.shtml

Also for high end Ti Seven Cycles are fantastic

http://www.sevencycles.com/road_detail. ... e=axiom_sg

And finally if you are into something a bit retro there's always the bike I ride, a Rivendell
Rambouillet. It's great for long rides and light touring, plenty of room for 700x32c tyres and mudguards and all the eyelets you need to tour and there are fittings for 3 cages too.

http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bi ... uct=50-172

mercsport

Paul Smith wrote : " Enigma are UK owned and designed, the frames made in Taiwan I believe, their Etape model is suitable for Audax, their Amazon model is called Excel "

I haven't looked in bikeradar for awhile now , but I was intrigued by the above line .
A couple of months ago I bought a ti. frame from the Xi / An Changda factory in mainland China ' http://www.xacd.com.cn/about.htm' . In the dialogue with ' Porter ' about what I wanted I swiped a pic . of an Enigma frame ( I forget which ) from off the Enigma website and posted it to illustrate what I wanted - or thereabouts . His response , within the hour - with the full tech. drawing , was that it was " no sweat , we are OEM for Enigma " .
I altered the spec. from an integrated headset tube to a normal headtube - so I could plant a Chris King headset in it , and got a very nicely made frame a very few weeks later .
The tubing isn't fancy stuff like the Litespeed I have ( ' 06 Ultimate ) , and is robust in section . Nor is the welding as tight . But it 's pretty and gleams like ti. should and I would have no qualms about riding around the world on it ( given the legs - heart - lungs - money ) .
BTW , Xi /An Changda will build you anything you like in ti. if you spec. it .

daviddd

steel every time = more comfortable and easily welded up in remote places.

blorg

daviddd- have you ridden a Titanium frame? Have you ever had to get your frame welded in a remote place?

paul_smith_srcc

mercsport wrote:

He Whom We Do Not Name wrote : " Enigma are UK owned and designed, the frames made in Taiwan I believe, their Etape model is suitable for Audax, their Amazon model is called Excel "
...I was intrigued by the above line. A couple of months ago I bought a ti. frame from the Xi / An Changda factory in mainland China ' http://www.xacd.com.cn/about.htm' . In the dialogue with ' Porter ' about what I wanted I swiped a pic . of an Enigma frame ( I forget which ) from off the Enigma website and posted it to illustrate what I wanted - or thereabouts . His response , within the hour - with the full tech. drawing , was that it was " no sweat , we are OEM for Enigma ".

My statement of "Enigma are UK owned and designed, the frames made in Taiwan I believe" was based on the information I had at the time, when the Enigma brand started they did state that frames are designed in the UK but manufactured in Taiwan, that was information was dated Jan 07 though, they may well use another manufacturer now. The XACD site does not show their frames off that well, but you can find pictures from other forums, they don't seem to resemble Enigma that much though.

Of course "no sweat , we are OEM for Enigma" may not actually translate in reality to "we build all the frames for Enigma", if it did I would have thought they would have been a bit more guarded about divulging that kind of information about who would as such be one of their best customers.

XACD

XACD

XACD

XACD

Enigma

Enigma

Enigma

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

mercsport

Paul : Yes I remember that line about Enigma's frames being knocked up in Taiwan . I think it's still there on their website .
The Xi'An Changda frame you illustrated certainly looks an agricultural jobby and would make me somewhat circumspect about contacting them .
However , here's a pic I've just taken of the frame that I had made for me ( my partner actually ) which looks a ringer for the Enigma you illustrated , the 'Etape' . As I said , I altered the head tube to a standard tube , but otherwise the same as methinks .
I saved $50 not having the waisted Int'gd head tube but had to pay $50 to have the brushed finish .
Yes , everything's loosely connected ! Collecting parts still .
[img][/img]

andrew_s

blorg wrote:

Personally I think that whole "need something that can be welded" thinking is nuts. Titanium is more durable anyway (from the rusting point of view) but when have you ever had a frame failure anyway?

Rust isn't the problem even with steel. The problem is fatigue cracking .
Titanium isn't immune to this, and neither is steel, but with steel you stand a good chance of getting a usably bodged frame within a day or two virtually anywhere. If it's a titanium frame, you'll most likely have hitch/bus to a decent sized city and get a replacement frame shipped to you. Whatever, it will take long enough to wreck a 3 or 4 week special holiday.

bof

I posted the original question as I have never been convinced by the steel for remote places argument.

The only time I have had a frame go, it was rust and the bike had high mileage and high abuse. The only cases of frame failure I have heard of have been on high-end racing bikes - one manufacturer in particular seemed to make bikes with stupidly thin chainstays a few years ago.

Assuming you take a bike that is solidly built, in good nick and ridden enough to expose a build flaw, how likely bar a bad accident is the frame likely to fail?

The alternative to a failed frame is surely buy a cheap MTB and rebuild it with your expensive components.

vernonlevy

bof wrote:

I posted the original question as I have never been convinced by the steel for remote places argument.

The only time I have had a frame go, it was rust and the bike had high mileage and high abuse. The only cases of frame failure I have heard of have been on high-end racing bikes - one manufacturer in particular seemed to make bikes with stupidly thin chainstays a few years ago.

Assuming you take a bike that is solidly built, in good nick and ridden enough to expose a build flaw, how likely bar a bad accident is the frame likely to fail?

The alternative to a failed frame is surely buy a cheap MTB and rebuild it with your expensive components.

I had a rear drop out fracture in Chorley at around 20:00 on a Frday night. I was back on the road within an hour and a half thanks to an amazing set of circumstances which resulted in the fracture being brazed up by Bill Nickson a apst Milk Race winner who lived locally to where I broke down.

It would have been game over for my LEJOG ride had the fracture been on a titanium or alumiium frames bike.

mercsport

vernonlevy wrote:

bof wrote:

I posted the original question as I have never been convinced by the steel for remote places argument.

The only time I have had a frame go, it was rust and the bike had high mileage and high abuse. The only cases of frame failure I have heard of have been on high-end racing bikes - one manufacturer in particular seemed to make bikes with stupidly thin chainstays a few years ago.

Assuming you take a bike that is solidly built, in good nick and ridden enough to expose a build flaw, how likely bar a bad accident is the frame likely to fail?

The alternative to a failed frame is surely buy a cheap MTB and rebuild it with your expensive components.

I had a rear drop out fracture in Chorley at around 20:00 on a Frday night. I was back on the road within an hour and a half thanks to an amazing set of circumstances which resulted in the fracture being brazed up by Bill Nickson a apst Milk Race winner who lived locally to where I broke down.

It would have been game over for my LEJOG ride had the fracture been on a titanium or alumiium frames bike.[/quote]

Handy having Bill Nickson around at your moment of stress . A friendly ear for sure .
Nonetheless , re. your judgement that it would've been 'game-over' had he not been . I would presume Bill said as much ? Most welders nowadays , in this country and of my acquaintance anyway , are kitted up for Ti. and Al. welding too . Their pricey machines allow'em to do it . Some of them don't profess to be skilled at one or the other but , if needs must , would have a crack at it .
Further , a well built and decently guaged robust Ti. frame is highly unlikely to crack , break or fracture .
But a lightly made one does have limits as I found out last year :

[img][/img]

daviddd

blorg wrote:

daviddd- have you ridden a Titanium frame? Have you ever had to get your frame welded in a remote place?

no and no - but if I did get a breakage steel would be an advantage - just hedging my bets!

paul_smith_srcc

daviddd wrote:

blorg wrote:

daviddd- have you ridden a Titanium frame? Have you ever had to get your frame welded in a remote place?

no and no - but if I did get a breakage steel would be an advantage - just hedging my bets!

I have ridden best part of 200'000 miles in my time, many in groups, I can count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times a rider has not made it home as a result of a terminal mechanical failure. When I say fingers of one hand I am actually being generous, for if my memory serves me right I can only remember one failure, where a fork blade cracked, even then he rode to the nearest station.

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

bof

vernonlevy wrote:

bof wrote:

I posted the original question as I have never been convinced by the steel for remote places argument.

The only time I have had a frame go, it was rust and the bike had high mileage and high abuse. The only cases of frame failure I have heard of have been on high-end racing bikes - one manufacturer in particular seemed to make bikes with stupidly thin chainstays a few years ago.

Assuming you take a bike that is solidly built, in good nick and ridden enough to expose a build flaw, how likely bar a bad accident is the frame likely to fail?

The alternative to a failed frame is surely buy a cheap MTB and rebuild it with your expensive components.

I had a rear drop out fracture in Chorley at around 20:00 on a Frday night. I was back on the road within an hour and a half thanks to an amazing set of circumstances which resulted in the fracture being brazed up by Bill Nickson a apst Milk Race winner who lived locally to where I broke down.

It would have been game over for my LEJOG ride had the fracture been on a titanium or alumiium frames bike.

You would have had to wait until Saturday am - but the alternative would be find another frame and rebuild your bike. Not great but would have saved your LeJog.

Ken Night

blorg wrote:

Thanks for all the info Paul. I went for the Amazon in the end and just got it back yesterday with all the stuff transferred over. My, what a ride,

You won't ever regret that purchase-I bought the Airborne Carpe Diem, four years ago, and still absolutely love it. Great ride, geometry is nice and stable, and the frame soaks up road buzz and trail noise like no other

blorg wrote:

Only issue I have is the cantilevers- they are the basic Shimano Altus ones and braking is pretty crap compared to calipers on my road bike or the V-brakes on my hybrid. To give you an idea how bad, if I JAM on the front brake full power, the bike just comes to a gradual stop. If I did that on the road bike or hybrid I would be over the bars. Reckon I can stop the road bike in around half the distance of the Amazon.

I have the same Altus cantis on another bike and had the same experience of them so didn't want them on this but there seems to have been a bit of confusion ordering and that is what I ended up with. Would changing these for Shimano BR-550, Avid Shorty or Tektro Oryx help, or are cantis with STI levers basically all the same from a stopping power point of view? Would V-brakes with a travel agent be a better idea?

I had the same problem with the CD-tried several cantis, and never got it really right-in retrospect, I might have tried a bit harder-try playing with the height of the yoke-the lower the better with the combination of ergos/avids

My CD now sports disc brakes-suits me very well, but you can't really get a rack/mudguards on....so as and when I tour, I might set up the bike with cantis again, but I really don't think so.
I do have a Nelson longflap which with a Bagman, means I don't need the rack

daviddd

well, a few years back my high-end Raleigh MTB came apart at the top tube and had to be rebrazed - I still got home though.