Fitting out audax - question on gears & wheels

GOMbeen

greetings,

I am slowly continuing the build out of an Audax bike based on a Thorn 853 frameset.

Could anyone with a minute and some expertise of how chainsets go together glance at the image below. This is a list of some campagnolo parts, and I want to know :

a) WILL IT WORK TOGETHER ? This is fundamental !

b) Does it make sense - I am aiming for a fastish, but not too extreme bike (my preference is for touring, not racing, and the kind of audax I had in mind is 100 K, maybe 150 max, with at least a saddlebag and barbag).

c) Can the cassette be put onto 'any' wheel or are there special fittings needed on the hub because it is campagnolo (compatible). I am thinking of wheels like the ones Spa cycle offer http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 2b17s141p0
Any other thoughts or ideas ?


Kind Regards

Eoin Gombeen

GOMbeen

:oops:
hope this brings the image up properly :


Gombeen :oops:

GOMbeen

Double :oops:



Think I have it now. Apologies.

Gombeen

geoff_ss

I fitted out a 653 Audax bike 12 years ago with very similar equipment and it worked fine.

Mine was 8 speed Mirage Ergopower stuff with a 50/40/30 chainset and a 13/26 cassette. I found that even the short arm rear mech coped with that range without a problem so your long arm version should more than cope.

You must use Campagnolo cassettes for the indexing to work properly. Though I understand some 'illegal' combinations will work, it's best to stick with one manufacturer's components to be certain.

I eventually replaced my chainset with a Shimano MTB one with far fewer teeth and hence lower gears but I rode the original set up without too much difficulty for several years. I just found that the 50 ring wasn't getting much use.

Geoff

GOMbeen

Thanks Geoff, reassuring to hear.

You must use Campagnolo cassettes for the indexing to work properly

Will the BBB cassette which claims campag compatibility be OK ? It has a wider range than any of the campag ones, hence the choice. If I could get a wider range while still preserving the indexing, that would indeed be pleasurable.

Also general question - will ergopower/STI eliminate completely the possibility of a handlebar bag ? I've always used one and currently have a rather natty (once I'd taped over the Halfords logo !) offering which I fancy transferring to this new machine. Doesn't matter to my decision which is to use combined brake/shift levers, just want to gauge in advance how it will be.

Cheers

Eoin Gombeen

geoff_ss

One reason I preferred Campag was that handlebar bags were easier because of the tidier cable routing. Shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know anything about BBB cassettes but if they claim Campag compatibility then I assumes they'd work OK. If you have Ergopower levers you have no option but to use indexing. They don't have a friction option - unless you revert to to down tube levers, of course. Another option is Highpath Engineering who supply sprockets, adapters and spacers to suit Campag

http://www.highpath.co.uk/index.html

I'm riding my first Audax for some years in a weeks time. It's only a 108km but with the ride to and from the start I'll be committed to about 130 km for the day. I have a new flat barred bike with a 44/32/22 chainset coupled to a 13/25 9 speed cassette. It has a Kinesis TK aluminium frame and is a joy to ride. I'm looking forward to it.

Geoff

GOMbeen

Thanks Geoff, good luck in the audax.

Like the signature.

Eoin Gombeen

rdaviesb

You'll have to go elsewhere for wheels, as none of the Spa Cycles sets are Campag compatible. Any of the current Campag hubs will work, and there plenty of wheel builders out there. My personal choice is Paul Hewitt, but check locally, and also consider Harry Rowland.

binlinus

In your shopping basket you have an error:

You have selected 9 speed cassette and chain but 10 speed ergo levers. That combination won't work.

Either run all 9 speed or all 10 speed. I would recommend you run all 10 speed.

Bin

giant_man

Good thread. Frame good choice, 853 ideal for audax work.

I would definitely speak to Paul Hewitt who can build you some very nice Open Pros on whatever hubs you fancy, groupset wise triple fine, but imo Campagnolo Comp would prob be better if you can afford it, due to some components being from Centaur groupset. I believe I am right in saying that.

And, again only my personal preference, I woudn't go for the campag chain. KMC or Sram have the easier connecting links, which if your chain went halfway through your event, you could change significanly easier and quicker.

Good luck with your final build choices and don't forget piccies for us when finalised.

GOMbeen

Thanks Giant Mancp & binlinus,

I made some tweaks to the part-list (see following image). This is now all 10sp at rear, while keeping the basic triple at front. Bit more expensive, but actually get a wider range (13:29 rather than 13:25 - now nearly 1:1 to 4:1 range, should get up a mountain ! ). The other option would be to 'downgrade' to all 9 sp, by changing the levers to 9sp. Would 9 sp offer any advantage of durability and ease of maintenance/set-up I wonder ?

What kind of questions should I ask Mr Hewitt in getting wheels made up - I want something basic but good-quality - tough enough for everyday use.

I told (inadvertently) a lie - it is not the 853 Thorn but their more basic Audax Mk3 (858 tubing), hope that doesn't disqualify me from further assistance !

Cheers

Gombeen Eoin

giant_man

Paul Hewitt will probably ask you what kind of riding you do, and your weight of course, and what you intend to use the wheels for. Based on this, he'll build you a good set of wheels which will last. Tough everyday wheels seem to be his forte.

IMO the Audax mk.3 looks excellent value for the money.

acorn_user

Does not disqualify you, but I will rap you on the knuckles for not buying a British made bike for the same kind of money (in a good humoured way of course).

You need to have all 9 speed or all 10 speed. Both work well. I'm actually getting good mileage out of my 10 speed chains. That was something that had worried me. In addition, Mirage 9 speed levers are plastic and less stiff than I would like. 10 speed Mirage has metal levers.

My wheels were built by Spa, as are those on my wifes bike. Mine were built onto Campagnolo Athena hubs, so they can do Campagnolo; you'll just have to call them. Miche make some decent Campagnolo compatible hubs too.

Also, I am using a bar bag with my current set up. I got it from Velo Orange. That is one of the major advantages of Ergo Power vs STI.

PHcp

I'd go for 9 speed Campag, the no indexing on the front shifter means you can make small adjustments to avoid chain rub and it's one less thing to go wrong. They're around £80 from a few places;
Ergos

Also Bike+ have some old style Centuar chainsets for less than the Champ, in an Audax friendly 30/40/50. Real bling
Chainset

jimwin

GOMbeen wrote:

Thanks Giant Mancp & binlinus,

I made some tweaks to the part-list (see following image). This is now all 10sp at rear, while keeping the basic triple at front. Bit more expensive, but actually get a wider range (13:29 rather than 13:25 - now nearly 1:1 to 4:1 range, should get up a mountain ! ). The other option would be to 'downgrade' to all 9 sp, by changing the levers to 9sp. Would 9 sp offer any advantage of durability and ease of maintenance/set-up I wonder ?

Endquote
********
I'd concur with the ratios. The 30/29 will get you up anything less than vertical. With audaxes, you need short gears for later on in a ride when your legs take on the constitution of jelly as you approach that "interesting" part of the course - at the end, of course. The longest gear is sufficient at 108". I was initially skeptical about the 28" gear but there are times when this can be really useful. The bottom line is that many a good time has been trashed for the want of a short gear and you won't gain anything worthwhile by having a gear longer than 108".

JimW

geoff_ss

It's surprising how useful a very low gear can be. On Sunday I actually used my 22x25 (24") bottom gear on a very steep lane. I was riding (seated) at about 7km/h and it made the climb quite comfortable - even enjoyable. I doubt if I'd have been much quicker in a higher gear and it's a lot better than walking. I'm not too bothered about the high end; 90" is enough for me (44x13)

The hardest audax I've ridden (Elenith 300) has the hard part in the middle 100km on the Abergwysen to Tregaron mountain road up the so-called Devil's Staircase. I've been very glad of ridiculously low gears on that road with its 3 hard climbs.

Geoff

GOMbeen

Ok, the die is cast, the Bike + offer kindly pointed out by PHCP has been availed of. In fact, ordered yesterday a.m. and it arrived this morning - good service from the shop and Royal Mail ! I went for their complete offer including Front mech and BB - the latter is beaut looking, but will need yet another type of tool to insert (my frameset comes with a conventionally splined ISO tapered BB already fitted , so maybe I will just leave that in for now).

For the rear-end (!) I went back to Parkers and ordered Veloce 10 Sp cassette (13/29), Comp triple mech, Veloce levers and KMC X10 chain as recommended by Giant Mancp.

It all cost a bit more than originally planned, but a large part of that was down to 'stuff' you don't really think about like a Cassette Lockring (went for 27 mm 11 up, could not find out what 27 mm 12 up was about), Lockring tool ( which also does campag BB, but only the high-end ones, NOT the one that came with my chainset WYKI !) and down-tube cable guides. Those little doo-dads added £37 to the total reckoning.

Thanks all for your help, next its the wheels.....

Eoin Gombeen

Also Bike+ have some old style Centuar chainsets for less than the Champ, in an Audax friendly 30/40/50. Real bling
Chainset

[/quote]

giant_man

The best bit to come mate! Go and see Paul Hewitt for brilliant customer service!

PHcp

Looks like a quality build.

GOMbeen wrote:

will need yet another type of tool to insert (my frameset comes with a conventionally splined ISO tapered BB already fitted , so maybe I will just leave that in for now).

Apologies if you already knew this;
If the BB it came with is a Shimano one don't put the Campag chainset on it. It may look like it fits but it's slightly different and over a few hundred miles it could ruin both. The right tool isn't expensive and you'll need it again.

geoff_ss

PHcp wrote:

Looks like a quality build.

GOMbeen wrote:

will need yet another type of tool to insert (my frameset comes with a conventionally splined ISO tapered BB already fitted , so maybe I will just leave that in for now).

Apologies if you already knew this;
If the BB it came with is a Shimano one don't put the Campag chainset on it. It may look like it fits but it's slightly different and over a few hundred miles it will ruin both. The right tool isn't expensive and you'll need it again.

On one of my bikes I have a Campag square taper bottom bracket but to get lower gears I fitted a Shinmano chainset. It's worked perfectly for 1000s of miles. I've mixed and matched Campag/Stronglight/TA/Shimano chainsets and (square taper) bottom brackets over the years with no problems at all.

Geoff

PHcp

Geoff_SS wrote:

PHcp wrote:

Looks like a quality build.

GOMbeen wrote:

will need yet another type of tool to insert (my frameset comes with a conventionally splined ISO tapered BB already fitted , so maybe I will just leave that in for now).

Apologies if you already knew this;
If the BB it came with is a Shimano one don't put the Campag chainset on it. It may look like it fits but it's slightly different and over a few hundred miles it will ruin both. The right tool isn't expensive and you'll need it again.

On one of my bikes I have a Campag square taper bottom bracket but to get lower gears I fitted a Shinmano chainset. It's worked perfectly for 1000s of miles. I've mixed and matched Campag/Stronglight/TA/Shimano chainsets and (square taper) bottom brackets over the years with no problems at all.

Geoff

Well in the light of your experience I'll modify my post to read "could ruin" rather than "will ruin".
It doesen't alter the fact that there are two standards, JIS and ISO and there's plenty of examples of damage caused by mixing tham. In my opinion for the sake of a £10 tool it's not worth the risk.

GOMbeen

PHCP,

well, they should work together, since the chainset claims to be ISO, like the BB spindle.

But I agree it is not worth the chance, I believe the tool needed is the Park BBT-4
(http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/1699/groupID/9/categoryID/215/v/105b89a5-ecd7-4b35-9155-df5af83a8e90), which at £6 is a lot more palatable than the Campag one at £30 (http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/3857/groupID/9/categoryID/215/v/105b89a5-ecd7-4b35-9155-df5af83a8e90) which in any case might not even be the right one.

On the subject of wheels, I'll talk with Hemitt and Spa as recommended, but as a reference point the "hand-built" Mavic A319 (http://www.parker-international.co.uk/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/5333/groupID/8/categoryID/134/v/105b89a5-ecd7-4b35-9155-df5af83a8e90) at £119/pair look like a good starting point. As mentioned before a 'tough' everyday wheel, will probably mostly have a heavy 28mm tyre (but would like the possibility of 23 mm, and the max clearance with guards is 32 mm) is my aim. Anyone care to confirm or otherwise the Mavic A319 ?

best regards

Eoin GOMBeen

giant_man

I personally wouldn't bother with the A319s, and go for open pros instead.

It will all become clearer upon talking to Paul Hewitt. he will know the best wheels for your riding aspirations for sure.[/i]

GOMbeen

Greetings,

now getting onto the fun bit - assembling all these fine pieces of engineering onto the frame. It is taking shape with the wheels locked & loaded, the Veloce chainset spinning beautifully on the (campag) BB etc.

Question : I need to get the steerer tube down to size. As I understand it - this is very much measure twice and cut once, since post-cut, there is very little adjustment possibility for the handlebar height ? Seems daft, but there you go. My idea was to set the saddle height about right, then make a first cut of the steering tube about 2-4 cm higher than this. Fit the levers, cables etc. Then ride the bike and decide on the exact best position of the bars, then get the lbs to make the final cut.

Does that sound resaonable, and am I OK to make a first cut of the tube myself and will an ordinary hacksaw be OK - I assume a vice would be essential to hold the tube square ?

Kind Regards

Eoin Gombeen

acorn_user

I had a pair of M:Wheels Deore/Mavc a319 wheels. They were excellent (rear got stolen). The hub eventually went on the front. They would be fine with a 28c tyre, but CTC are now recommending DRC rims from Italy. They make a rim that is designed for 28c tyres and weighs about the same.

GOMbeen

Thanks, I actually went for DRC rims, which is the subject of a separate post. They look good but had huge trouble putting rubber on ! Also suspect they are 1 size down and are really only suited for 23/25 mm when I wd rather prefer 25/28mm.

Anyway.... any thoughts on the steerer tube reduction ? My wife suggests a tube cutter - we have a (plumbing) one for softer metals like copper, aluminum etc, can one cope with the (hardened ?) steel of a steerer tube ?

Eoin GOMBeen

star_rover

I've used a pipe cutter for chopping a steel steerer. It will be easier than using a hacksaw and will save you a trip to the LBS.

PHcp

There's nothing to stop you leaving your steerer full length and using some of the spacers above the stem. This way you can experiment all you want before committing. I always leave a 10mm spacer above the stem even after I've decided, adds to future options.

Also suspect they are 1 size down and are really only suited for 23/25 mm when I wd rather prefer 25/28mm.

Which DRC rims are they? Most road rims are OK for 28mm, cyclecross bikes often run 32mm on Open Pros.

GOMbeen

Star_rover,

what kind of cutter did you use ? I have a plumbing type one which is advertised for Copper, Aluminium, and does 3 - 22 mm. I think the steerer tube is steel (?) and a bit larger in diameter than 22 mm .

PhCP - will check the rim size - I believe they are DRC ST17? Anyway they are narrower than the rims on my touring bike which comfortably take 28/32 mm tyres. I previously posted about the problems of getting tyres onto the rims eventually ended up with 23 mm Schwalbe Blizzards. So far this has been by far the hardest part of the build. ....

Best Regards

Eoin Gombeen

GOMbeen

Hi,

nearing the end - the bike is actually functioning now. However......having some issues on trimming the Campagnolo gears.

Most prob is on the front. I am setting the L and H screws without the cable, then introducing the cable with chain on smallest chain ring and front shifter in corresponding position. Now the mech will only stay in the centre chain ring and does not move far enough for either H or L position - ie. either inner or outer plate will contact the chain but not enough to move it. Any ideas ? By the way this also seems to me the poorest of the bits of kit on the bike (I think it is a Champ triple mech), the H/L screws are very hard to move - I have to use a large flat rather than a correct size philips screwdriver and they are deforming easily. Also there is not a clear place for the cable to 'catch' on the retaining screw.

On the back, a bit better, the only prob is I cannot reach up to gears 9 & 10 (the 2 largest chain-rings). It gets to 8 at the bottom of the shifting, then if you press the shift lever in, the chain moves to 9 but then bounces back when you release the lever. Suspect finesse of the L limit screw here, but again so far it is nearly at the limit without affecting the performance of the changing. The mech is a 'long cage' (Veloce ?) designed for triple at front, so it should work fine.

Any words of wisdom welcomed.

One other little point - I taped the cable outers to the 'bars using parcel tape (all that was there !). Actually it looks quite neat, and I wonder - just tape over the parcel tape ? Or not ? thoughts ?

Kind Regards

Eoin the GOMbeen

GOMbeen

Bump,

anyone out there - I've just spent another rather joyless 90 mins fiddling with limit screws, cable tensioners, and am precisely back where I started. No shifting on the front (Campag Centaur) and 7 out of 10 on back (Campag Comp Triple).

So far pretty unimpressed with Campag mechs ! The levers are lovely and very easy to work with, the mechs are pure horrible. The front one - the limit screws (which are completely unmarked as to h/l ) are almost in bits now, and every adjustment is painful.

At the back, the cable exit (from the outer) does not seem to line up the cable clamp, so the inner 'fouls' the cable exit point - that surely cannot be right ?

I've watched all the Utube vids and read the book/manual (although I do not have campag manual for front, only rear), can anyone shed any fresh light here ?

Kind Regards

Eoin GOMBeen