Athletes Passport WADA presentation

iainf72

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/docu ... arnier.pdf

There is an interesting undercurrent in the first few pages - See if you can spot it.

And being my usual negative self, I don't think it's going to work.

Bronzie

iainf72 wrote:

There is an interesting undercurrent in the first few pages - See if you can spot it.

That the current tests don't work very well?

Good to know that the pro peloton are the guinea pigs for this new protocol, with the scheme to be developed for use in other sports once the pilot has proved itself.

What makes you think that Athlete's Passports won't work?

iainf72

Bronzie wrote:

Good to know that the pro peloton are the guinea pigs for this new protocol, with the scheme to be developed for use in other sports once the pilot has proved itself.

What makes you think that Athlete's Passports won't work?

I don't know - Just a feeling. For a start, I would've like to have seen a controlled test of it. I know they say it's all standard medical practise and the stats tell us it will work, but I'd like to have seen it tested.

It's looking for strange thing in the blood trends, for example - But Ivan Basso's blood work results were held up as perfectly normal but the UCI a couple of years ago.

If we got to the end of the season with no "no starts" or attempts to sanction athletes does that mean they're all clean OR it doesn't work?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2008-02-27_Athlete_Passport_AGarnier.pdf

There is an interesting undercurrent in the first few pages - See if you can spot it.

And being my usual negative self, I don't think it's going to work.

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

Ahhh, good question. I don't believe you can solve it - Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I said. I don't believe it's going to make as much difference as the hype would have us believe. The passport gives you parameters to work within which might be tighter than what we have now, but there is still some give. And doping is all about getting an extra little bit, isn't it?

Look at what happened when the EPO test was developed - Dropped off for about a year and then wham, back again when it was well understood.

Until the depth of the problem is understood across ALL sports I don't think we'll get anything sensible happening.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

Ahhh, good question. I don't believe you can solve it - Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I said. I don't believe it's going to make as much difference as the hype would have us believe. The passport gives you parameters to work within which might be tighter than what we have now, but there is still some give. And doping is all about getting an extra little bit, isn't it?

Look at what happened when the EPO test was developed - Dropped off for about a year and then wham, back again when it was well understood.

Until the depth of the problem is understood across ALL sports I don't think we'll get anything sensible happening.

Is genetic doping here, that's what i wonder?

vermooten

Gotta start them doping early, in their mid-teens.

iainf72

vermooten wrote:

Gotta start them doping early, in their mid-teens.

Exactly. Can you imagine what's been happening in China over the last 4 years?

I wish I could find it, but there was an article in, I think it was Bicycling, in the late 80's / early 90's about a guy who was a street sweeper in Paris and he was basically funding his teenage sons dopage because he saw it as a way to a better life. There was also that story out of South Africa recently where juniors were taking EPO and stuff with their parents cooperation.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

Ahhh, good question. I don't believe you can solve it - Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I said. I don't believe it's going to make as much difference as the hype would have us believe. The passport gives you parameters to work within which might be tighter than what we have now, but there is still some give. And doping is all about getting an extra little bit, isn't it?

Look at what happened when the EPO test was developed - Dropped off for about a year and then wham, back again when it was well understood.

Until the depth of the problem is understood across ALL sports I don't think we'll get anything sensible happening.

I believe humans are in the majority dishonest when given the chance to get away with it.... I still enjoy following sport...but no way will doping be defeated , it will be strong and will continue and on quite large scales in all sports..cleaned up cycling will never happen we should not hope for it

flattythehurdler

No, but IMO EPO and blood doping have had the greatest skewing effect upon the sport. If one can limit their use/degree of use then the racing will be substantially cleaner, and this should be possible. tetosterone gel don't a new man make, a litre of blood, on the other hand...

avalon

Dave_1 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

Ahhh, good question. I don't believe you can solve it - Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I said. I don't believe it's going to make as much difference as the hype would have us believe. The passport gives you parameters to work within which might be tighter than what we have now, but there is still some give. And doping is all about getting an extra little bit, isn't it?

Look at what happened when the EPO test was developed - Dropped off for about a year and then wham, back again when it was well understood.

Until the depth of the problem is understood across ALL sports I don't think we'll get anything sensible happening.

I believe humans are in the majority dishonest when given the chance to get away with it.... I still enjoy following sport...but no way will doping be defeated , it will be strong and will continue and on quite large scales in all sports..cleaned up cycling will never happen we should not hope for it

Not too sure I agree with you there Dave,I think it would be more accurate to say, most athletes,by definition, are highly competitive and will do whatever is needed to level the playing field that they see,whether this be real or imaginary. Perhaps more so if their livelihood is dependent on results.

iainf72

flattythehurdler wrote:

No, but IMO EPO and blood doping have had the greatest skewing effect upon the sport. If one can limit their use/degree of use then the racing will be substantially cleaner, and this should be possible. tetosterone gel don't a new man make, a litre of blood, on the other hand...

So, if Flatty and Iain were competing in, oh say, LBL, and Iain rode away from Flatty on La Redoute to win but I'd used a bit of testosterone gel, that's not as bad as using EPO?

Both would skew the results but you're just more certain of the results with EPO (if it agrees with you that is)

Or if one riders used testosterone and the other used EPO, but the EPO'd rider came second ,who would be worse?

Noodley

iainf72 wrote:

flattythehurdler wrote:

No, but IMO EPO and blood doping have had the greatest skewing effect upon the sport. If one can limit their use/degree of use then the racing will be substantially cleaner, and this should be possible. tetosterone gel don't a new man make, a litre of blood, on the other hand...

So, if Flatty and Iain were competing in, oh say, LBL, and Iain rode away from Flatty on La Redoute to win but I'd used a bit of testosterone gel, that's not as bad as using EPO?

Both would skew the results but you're just more certain of the results with EPO (if it agrees with you that is)

Or if one riders used testosterone and the other used EPO, but the EPO'd rider came second ,who would be worse?

Fuck me! That's just about as complicated as my O grade maths exam!

Kléber

The chances are that Iain and Flatty get dropped well before La Redoute because they're not blood doping.

You can test for testosterone and EPO. The trouble is that the UCI's testing regime is pathetic. Riders get checked at predictable times and in predictable ways, so blood doping has been "easy" for some. Tiny changes to the testing regime, like taking blood samples 15 minutes before the start of the race, would reduce the incidence of blood doping.

We can't stop doping but there are some easy moves to reduce it. I say easy, but I realise it takes money and effort, but surely given the scandal, and the way several teams are spending money to "prove" they're clean, the funds can be found to help.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

The chances are that Iain and Flatty get dropped well before La Redoute because they're not blood doping.

Wrong because I'd "crash" and then get a new bike and hang onto my team car for a couple of km's saving my legs for a savage attack :P

My point was breaking the rules is breaking the rules. I would be supportive of a reduced list of substances but really think they all need to be treated the same.

Photograph their veins as was suggested.

drenkrom

Human beings respond to incentives. As long as the glory and money to be achieved by doping are not offset by another set of equally strong incentives not to dope, there is no way the problem can go away.

I don't see such a set of incentives with the biological passport. It takes info the UCI already had and puts in in a little booklet. If that's what it takes for someone to start making Excel sheets of those numbers and look for patterns, it's an advancement for sure. To see this as any step towards cleaning the sport is naïve. If anything, it'll make the job harder for a year or two.

dave_1

avalon wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

how do we solve the problem of doping Iain? What would you do that UCi wada and teams are not ?

Ahhh, good question. I don't believe you can solve it - Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I said. I don't believe it's going to make as much difference as the hype would have us believe. The passport gives you parameters to work within which might be tighter than what we have now, but there is still some give. And doping is all about getting an extra little bit, isn't it?

Look at what happened when the EPO test was developed - Dropped off for about a year and then wham, back again when it was well understood.

Until the depth of the problem is understood across ALL sports I don't think we'll get anything sensible happening.

I believe humans are in the majority dishonest when given the chance to get away with it.... I still enjoy following sport...but no way will doping be defeated , it will be strong and will continue and on quite large scales in all sports..cleaned up cycling will never happen we should not hope for it

Not too sure I agree with you there Dave,I think it would be more accurate to say, most athletes,by definition, are highly competitive and will do whatever is needed to level the playing field that they see,whether this be real or imaginary. Perhaps more so if their livelihood is dependent on results.

fair enough Avalon, I respect your view of human nature...basing mine more on my lfie experience...people are honest when they have to be mostly...and not when they can get away with it and money is involved...As david Millar said "I did it because I could" re EPO use in 03...I feel most make this pragmatic choice...

flattythehurdler

iainf72 wrote:

flattythehurdler wrote:

No, but IMO EPO and blood doping have had the greatest skewing effect upon the sport. If one can limit their use/degree of use then the racing will be substantially cleaner, and this should be possible. tetosterone gel don't a new man make, a litre of blood, on the other hand...

So, if Flatty and Iain were competing in, oh say, LBL, and Iain rode away from Flatty on La Redoute to win but I'd used a bit of testosterone gel, that's not as bad as using EPO?

Both would skew the results but you're just more certain of the results with EPO (if it agrees with you that is)

Or if one riders used testosterone and the other used EPO, but the EPO'd rider came second ,who would be worse?

True, Iain, they would both be equally bad in principal, but in practise, i would have half a chance if I trained harder and you only used testosterone gel. With you on EPO or blood, I would have little chance regardless unless I was a much, much better cyclist. pragmatically they should go for the most biasing agents with the greatest vigour, if they can't, as we all suspect, eliminate them all. It would be relatively simple to check for epo and /or blood doping during a stage race. As the other products have less benefit (probably), athletes with a threat of severe sanction hanging over them would be less likely to cheat as the benefits are fewer. IMO.