What does anybody do about knees?

Roger Davies

They are our weakest link arent they. How does anyone look after theirs? Any special foods for instance?

chronyx

Glucosamine and Chondritin (sp?) tablets from Tesco and cod liver oil/omega 3.

Plenty of natural oils eaten as well and oily fish most weeks.

Lagavulin

I don't take supplements but I eat plenty of oily fish.
Lots of mackeral, salmon, trout, herring/kippers, anchovies, sardines and fresh tuna.

z000m

i tryed that Glucosamine and it does work but i remember it being expensive not sure how much it is in tesco ill have to check on that

paulswilliams2

Is it worth taking Glucosamine and Chondroitin as a preventative at the age of 30? I have recently had a 2nd arthroscopy which solved my 'impinged fat pad'. Although the joints are fine and show little cartilage wear, I would like to protect mine in future as much as I can.

I know medicines aren't a great substitute for good diets, but I really can't stand fish

Gavin Gilbert

Firstly, make sure your position on the bike is good. Shoes must interface with the pedals correctly, the seat hight must be correct, saddle set-back and angle must be spot on.

Next, don't grind up hills. If you feel knees or upper legs buring get out of the saddle and honk

Finally, stretch when you get off the bike. Make sure you stretch out your quads, hamstrings and hip flexors.

Doobz

I think this should do.. not too expensive

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... sp?pid=661

magicroundabout

I'm over-pronated (or something...flat footed to the rest of us), and this means my bio-mechanics are a bit wonky and my knees take a bit of lookign after. I do the following:

1) Stretch. My glutes get quite tight, but a regular stretch of glutes, hamstrings, quads, calves, my iliotibial band (jury's still out on whether or not this can be stretched) and my back (in three different directions) keeps me loosened up nicely.

2) Use orthotics - if you don't have flat feet you won't need these. I NEED them! 5 minutes walking without them, in the wrong shoes, and my knees start hurting.

3) Warm up! I do this in two ways. In winter I wear my tights to keep my legs warm as I set out. But also, spin lightly at the start of a ride for a good few minutes before going hard.

With these things I've pretty much eliminated the knee problems I used to have. Oh, and yes, check your bike's set up right.

Not sure on nutrition stuff. I don't eat anything knee-specific, but that's not to say there isn't stuff out there that can help.

MR

Roger Davies

Lagavulin wrote:

I don't take supplements but I eat plenty of oily fish.
Lots of mackeral, salmon, trout, herring/kippers, anchovies, sardines and fresh tuna.

I'm with you. I love Makeral, Sardines, Trout and anchovies but I've never figured out how to cook Herring.

Cheers
RD

Roger Davies

magicroundabout wrote:

I'm over-pronated (or something...flat footed to the rest of us), and this means my bio-mechanics are a bit wonky and my knees take a bit of lookign after. I do the following:

1) Stretch. My glutes get quite tight, but a regular stretch of glutes, hamstrings, quads, calves, my iliotibial band (jury's still out on whether or not this can be stretched) and my back (in three different directions) keeps me loosened up nicely.

2) Use orthotics - if you don't have flat feet you won't need these. I NEED them! 5 minutes walking without them, in the wrong shoes, and my knees start hurting.

3) Warm up! I do this in two ways. In winter I wear my tights to keep my legs warm as I set out. But also, spin lightly at the start of a ride for a good few minutes before going hard.

With these things I've pretty much eliminated the knee problems I used to have. Oh, and yes, check your bike's set up right.

Not sure on nutrition stuff. I don't eat anything knee-specific, but that's not to say there isn't stuff out there that can help.

MR

That sounds like a lot of good advice Magic cheers. I'd be a bit embarrassed wearing tights though. I assume you're a woman or is there something new about cycling I dont yet know about

Roger

ps What are your glutes, quads and iliotibial band?

Roger Davies

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

Firstly, make sure your position on the bike is good. Shoes must interface with the pedals correctly, the seat hight must be correct, saddle set-back and angle must be spot on.

Next, don't grind up hills. If you feel knees or upper legs buring get out of the saddle and honk

Finally, stretch when you get off the bike. Make sure you stretch out your quads, hamstrings and hip flexors.

Would you call standing in the saddle 'grinding'? I've often wondered about the effect that posture has on my knees. I'm not proud about getting off to push but I do try not to.

Roger Davies

z000m wrote:

i tryed that Glucosamine and it does work but i remember it being expensive not sure how much it is in tesco ill have to check on that

How do you know it worked zoom? And what does Glucosamine do exactly? Cheers

Roger

Not Another Hill

I had knee problems from cycling. Saw a physio. Recommended stretches as magicroundabout suggested. Touch wood; no problems since.

rjeffroy

As above - I pay a lot of attention to bike position, especially cleat setup, stretch after every ride, spin not grind, keep my knees warm in winter with knee warmers or tights. The knee problems I used to have with cycling have disappeared as a result.

z000m

info about Glucosamine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucosamine

i took it for about 6 months and noticed my joints didnt ache as much.

geoff_ss

If you have bad knees the doctor can prescribe Glucosamine on the NHS because there are studies that show it to be effective to some extent. However there are no studies that suggest it helps hips, which is my problem. I'm actually OK walking and cycling; my right hip aches rather a lot afterwards. So I take Glucosamine in the hope it will delay the need for surgery as long as possible.

Other than that I love olives and olive oil and eat a lot but not particularly for any joint assistance. We don't eat any meat or meat products except, perhaps, inadvertently.

I think it's a good idea to avoid high gears anyway. Lot's of light pedal strokes have got to be better than few laboured ones in my book. Also keeping knees warm with either plusses or training tights when the temperature dictates can't do any harm either.

Geoff

Cajun

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/knee ... rders.html
Don't wait until your knees start giving you trouble, some preventive measures of supplementation can extend your years of riding; and three important words: CADENCE, CADENCE, CADENCE...

magicroundabout

Hi Roger,

I am, in fact, a man. Are you kidding about the women/tights thing? You seem to have been around a while and there's enough threads about bib tights and stuff around here. Maybe you call them longs?

ps What are your glutes, quads and iliotibial band?

My physiology isn't great and if you really want to know go ask an expert, but here's what I remember from my physio...

Glutes are the big muscles in your bum. but I think they're called gluteous medius and gluteous minimus.

The iliotibial band (IT band) is connected to the glutes, goes down the outer side of the leg, under the knee, and connects to one of the lower leg bones just below the knee.

One of my knee problems (and my flat-footedness) is caused by tight gluteous muscles. These pull the IT band tight and it rubs under the knee cap. Stretching the glutes relieves the tension in the IT band and eases the knee pain.

Quads are your quadriceps, the big muscles on the front of your legs.

From what I understand, most of the cycling you do is powered by your glutes and quads.

MR

Roger Davies

magicroundabout wrote:

Hi Roger,

I am, in fact, a man. Are you kidding about the women/tights thing? You seem to have been around a while and there's enough threads about bib tights and stuff around here. Maybe you call them longs?

ps What are your glutes, quads and iliotibial band?

My physiology isn't great and if you really want to know go ask an expert, but here's what I remember from my physio...

Glutes are the big muscles in your bum. but I think they're called gluteous medius and gluteous minimus.

The iliotibial band (IT band) is connected to the glutes, goes down the outer side of the leg, under the knee, and connects to one of the lower leg bones just below the knee.

One of my knee problems (and my flat-footedness) is caused by tight gluteous muscles. These pull the IT band tight and it rubs under the knee cap. Stretching the glutes relieves the tension in the IT band and eases the knee pain.

Quads are your quadriceps, the big muscles on the front of your legs.

From what I understand, most of the cycling you do is powered by your glutes and quads.

MR

Thanks for the info MR. No offense but no I havent heard of tights being applied to cycling. I guess you must mean Lycra which I dont use at all. I actually cycle in everyday clothing.

Cheers
Roger

Panter

If you have bad knees the doctor can prescribe Glucosamine on the NHS because there are studies that show it to be effective to some extent.

Is that a fairly new thing then? when I saw my doctor about my knees he recommended it but said it wasn't available on prescription.
That was nearly 2 Years ago now though, I'll look into it.

Saying that, I get mine at ASDA. I forget the cost but its a hell of a lot cheaper than at Holland&Barrets and may be chepaer than prescription if you only get a months worth from the doc in one go.

I've been taking it regularly for a few moths now and my knees do seem a bit better, but then I'm doing a lot more cycling now which may be strengthening them too.

cheers

Chris

Yellow Cliff

paulswilliams2 wrote:

Is it worth taking Glucosamine and Chondroitin as a preventative at the age of 30? I have recently had a 2nd arthroscopy which solved my 'impinged fat pad'. Although the joints are fine and show little cartilage wear, I would like to protect mine in future as much as I can.

Was this a Hoffa impingement (a haemorrhage on the fat pad)? I had an arthroscopy 3 months ago and my surgeon found and removed this. He said it was caused by repeated bending of the knee - well there isn't much you can do to prevent that if you are a cyclist!

Have you managed to discover a different reason for yours?

geoff_ss

Panter wrote:

If you have bad knees the doctor can prescribe Glucosamine on the NHS because there are studies that show it to be effective to some extent.

Is that a fairly new thing then? when I saw my doctor about my knees he recommended it but said it wasn't available on prescription.
That was nearly 2 Years ago now though, I'll look into it.

Saying that, I get mine at ASDA. I forget the cost but its a hell of a lot cheaper than at Holland&Barrets and may be chepaer than prescription if you only get a months worth from the doc in one go.

I've been taking it regularly for a few moths now and my knees do seem a bit better, but then I'm doing a lot more cycling now which may be strengthening them too.

cheers

Chris

I asked my doctor a few weeks ago if there was anything I could do to help my hips and she volunteered the information about Glucosamine as related to knees. She said she could prescribe it for knees but not hips as no hip studies had been done (or if they had they weren't conclusive). It may have changed in the last 2 years.

Geoff

Roger Davies

Cajun wrote:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/kneeinjuriesanddisorders.html
Don't wait until your knees start giving you trouble, some preventive measures of supplementation can extend your years of riding; and three important words: CADENCE, CADENCE, CADENCE...

Thanks for the link Cajun. I dont have (I hope) knee problems but it's useful to know that now is the time to head them off rather than await a problem which is the advice I was looking for. I'm getting old and do a lot of 'grinding' as I dont have a bike with lots of gears. That may change in the near future.

andy_wrx

There's a whole set of supplements of glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, bromelain, etc and various mixtures of these, various daily dosages, etc.

There's not been full research/proper clinical trials, and what there is is often contradictory, because these things are easily available extracts from natural material (fish, plants, etc) and not synthesised by Glaxo, Pfizer, Roche, etc

The big pharmaceutical companies will do the clinical trials on a drug they develop because they have to in order to get it licenced and their investment is then protected as they have it under patent for 15 years
- but supplements like these, which anyone can extract/make, no big company will do these tests, no money in it for them.

Having said that though, there has been more research done on glucosamine by far than on most heathfoods/supplements, and it seems that it works (note 'seems to', can't say for sure as not enough research to say definitively).

But the jury's out on how much you should take daily, whether you should combine with chondroitin or MSM, etc.

And what the effect will be on you as a fit-and-athletic cyclist as opposed to an osteoathritis-suffereing geriatric...

See what NHS for Cornwall & Scillies say
http://www.swmit.nhs.uk/pdf+/CIOS/cios1801007.pdf

And then see what Healthspan say (of course, they're somewhere else to buy it...)
http://www.healthspan.co.uk/articles/wh ... a1027.html

- I take it !

Roger Davies

'And what the effect will be on you as a fit-and-athletic cyclist as opposed to an osteoathritis-suffereing geriatric'

Which is the point. Reading the Healthcare link you'd be forgiven for thinking it was the answer to both. Interesting facts. Thanks

RD

knedlicky

andy_wrx wrote:

there has been more research done on glucosamine by far than on most heathfoods/supplements, and it seems that it works (note 'seems to', can't say for sure as not enough research to say definitively).

But the jury's out on how much you should take daily, whether you should combine with chondroitin or MSM, etc.

I think there have only been a couple of serious studies, each involving about 200 people, whereby 20-25% of recipients showed some improvement after taking glucosamine. So the percentage is encouragingly high but the sizes of the studies were relatively small.

There is also some evidence that only 1% of what you swallow actually helps, the rest is just 'burnt up' in the stomach. But before anyone 'ups' the dosage to counter this, studies with animals show that high doses may increase your chances of becoming diabetic.
A better method would be direct injection into the joint. No pain, no gain!

Also, glucosamine is supposed to increase the likelihood of developing Dupuytren's Disease (where knots form in the tissue of the hand and eventually the fingers can't any longer be extended). But at least the hands will be the right shape for the handlebars!

Since the stuff is apparently obtained from mussels and sharks' fins, anyone with a seafood allergy or concerned about the endangered sharks should perhaps avoid it.

The mussels they use are the green-lipped ones from New Zealand way. One of the by-products of the glucosamine trade, for which the mussels are now primarily farmed, is their meat. It's thus mainly just an entrepreneurial exercise that these mussels are currently 'pushed' in restaurants and food shops in the UK.

cee

magicroundabout wrote:

One of my knee problems (and my flat-footedness) is caused by tight gluteous muscles.

Are you saying that you have biff knees because you are a tight ar*e

Roger Davies

Thanks Andy. That does it for me I'm sticking to oily Fish. Cheers for the info.

RD

magicroundabout

no I havent heard of tights being applied to cycling. I guess you must mean Lycra which I dont use at all. I actually cycle in everyday clothing.

Ah - OK. Apologies. There's a few other threads on here about tights/longs, and yeah, I mean lycra longs, as opposed to shorts - what my wife calls the "wrestling suit".

I could go on to extol the virtues of technical clothing, but you sound happy as you are and it's too off-topic!

Are you saying that you have biff knees because you are a tight ar*e

Good spot! Err.... :oops:

MR

Roger Davies

magicroundabout wrote:

no I havent heard of tights being applied to cycling. I guess you must mean Lycra which I dont use at all. I actually cycle in everyday clothing.

Ah - OK. Apologies. There's a few other threads on here about tights/longs, and yeah, I mean lycra longs, as opposed to shorts - what my wife calls the "wrestling suit".

I could go on to extol the virtues of technical clothing, but you sound happy as you are and it's too off-topic!

Are you saying that you have biff knees because you are a tight ar*e

Good spot! Err.... :oops:

MR

No apology needed MR. Frankly I'd be a bit embarrased at my age - 65 to wear 'proper' cycling clothing though I cycle with blokes every week and even older than me who always do. Also climbing in and out of it every trip just puts me off. But I guess if you're into preformance I can see why Lycra is a must. One thing though, dont take this personally, but whenever I see a cyclist coming the other way I always nod a greeting. 'Ordinary' cyclists like me nearly always nod back. Maybe one in hundred Lycra wearing cyclists do. I've always thought that strange. Just an observation.

Philip Davis

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned exercise in relation to knees:

I've had two long conversations about knee injuries with different sports physios (both fully qualified, and in one case with a lot of experience with cyclists). Their view is that most knee injuries with cyclists arise not from cadence or badly fitting cleats, but from an imbalance caused by the nature of cycling - i.e. a constant stress on your 'spin' muscles, with little or no excercise for the opposite muscles.

They recommend two things: First, the obvious, which is regular stretching to release pressure on the knee (I actually pulled a kneecap out of position in a fall, caused, according to my physio, to the muscle being too tight).

Second, regular exercise to the unused muscle. My physio demonstrated two of these (apologies for having forgotten the names of the muscles):

1. Sit on a chair normally, with a cushion under your upper legs to raise them a little. Stretch out your legs horizontally (preferably with some light ankle weights). Do gentle leg presses, but don't drop the leg more than 15 degrees. This gives a gentle workout to the 'opposite' muscles to the normal pedalling action.

2. As above, but lock your knee out firmly, and twist your leg (so, for example, your right foot your toes are pointing at a 2 O'Clock position). Do leg raises (keeping your knee locked out), again, no more than about 15 degrees rise from the horizontal. You should feel a strain on the muscle that runs from your kneecap to groin.


Sorry if these are a bit confusing, hard to describeexercises like these without being able to demonstrate directly, but they are pretty logical when you do them. 2Kg ankle weights are best for starters. You don't have to do too much (according to my physio), its just a case of strengthening them enough to provide a balance against your pedalling muscles.

Oh, and also, I've personally found that keeping my knees warm all through the winter helps a lot - Swobo merino leg warmers are the best cycling investment I've made in a long while.