Why Do Most Roadies Waddle Around On Their Heels ?

mercsport

The thought occurred to me as I was reading about the pro's and con's of spd-r's and the like in a previous post here . But not for the first time . It's been a puzzle to me for ages . :?
Why is it that most roadies use cleat systems that seem to defy shoe manufacturers the design of a road shoe that would allow them to walk around like a normal member of the human race when off the bike ?
How is it that , decades ( is it ? ) after the invention of Shimano's brilliant SPD system , we still see our fleshless men of iron waddling about like penguins, hoping not to make a dick of themselves by coming a cropper , when mounting the podium to get their trophy and be kissed by the local floozies ?
More to the point though , how is it that we ordinary bikers riding smooth tyres purchase the same impedimenta to normal walking motion when off the bike ?
O.K. , the bike's for riding and walking isn't the name of the game , but most roadies I know stop for fuelling up and a general prat around several times in the course of a ride . When I ask why they don't use spd's buried in a mtb shoe - like me ( of course !) - I get all sorts of answers , all of which I've forgotten . I like to think I've forgotten because none of the replies are convincing enough for me to remember . But I accept that it maybe my Luddite inclination at work here .
The shoes I have are all Sidi , an early pair of racing Genius ( which are near mint 'cos I never use'em ) , plus three other Sidi's which are all , ostensibly , indistinguishable from a road shoe other than having a mtb sole wherein the spd cleat is buried . Admittedly I'm more of a tourist biker and a plodder really ( and old with it ), but , try as I might , I cannot see the logic of why the majority of ordinary roadies think that it's O.K. in the 21st century to walk about on their heels . FFS !!!
It's never been at all clear to me either in what way are other systems an 'improvement' over the SPD , other than to evade forking out to Shimano their patent fees .

redddraggon

They are supposed to be lighter and give a better connection between shoe and pedal.

dennisn

I have seen Speedplay Frog pedals used by more than a few road touring cyclist's.
When I asked them about this they said it was because walking was easier. While these
are really MTB pedals it would seem that some roadies have decided that
they work for them. Also if you're "old" as you claim you must remember toe clips
and their cleats, which made you walk around on your heels. Not much has changed
in that respect. FFS???? I'm from the states and a little slow.

Dennis Noward

mercsport

Hmmmmn . Maybe .
Lighter : well O.K. , I'll accept that . Except that I think it's marginal at best .
A better connection twixt shoe and pedal ? No , I can't accept that . Particularly when the guys I know running Look type systems seem to have to renew their plasticky shoe plates every few months .
Further , don't some trackies cherish their early Dura-Ace SPD racer pedals like gold for exactly that reason ?

simbil1

SPD-SL isn't exactly light - 310g for Ultegra.
One sided Shimano touring SPDs are 318g
One sided Ritchey SPDs are only 208g.

As with any contact point though, there is a lot more than just weight to consider.

I'm thinking of toe clips for my next super sprint triathlon so I can cycle in my runners and have a very quick transition from bike to run.

mercsport

dennisn wrote :" Also if you're "old" as you claim you must remember toe clips
and their cleats, which made you walk around on your heels. Not much has changed
in that respect. FFS???? I'm from the states and a little slow.
"

Of course I remember the 'Christopher' toe clips well . I don't miss'em at all . I perfectly remember the times back then when I given to thinking ' there must be a better way ' . Everyone told me there was of course . Deeply conservative I was years behind everyone else before I chucked'em and got into spd's .

As for 'FFS' Dennis , .. it's an acronym for an intemperate epithet in common everyday use over here ( in the circles I mix in that is ) . Goes something like : " For f ****'s sake ! :oops:

dennisn

mercsport wrote:

Hmmmmn . Maybe .
Lighter : well O.K. , I'll accept that . Except that I think it's marginal at best .
A better connection twixt shoe and pedal ? No , I can't accept that . Particularly when the guys I know running Look type systems seem to have to renew their plasticky shoe plates every few months .
Further , don't some trackies cherish their early Dura-Ace racer pedals like gold for exactly that reason ?

You're right about the trackies. I used to use the metal to metal SPD cleats and pedals.
Never any real problems although now I use Shimano's newer pedal. Even though you
have to buy new cleats much more often I favor it over the older stye because it's
a bigger platform. Still not as big as the old toe clip pedals but it works for me.


dennis noward

Blonde

Spds give you a small surface area in contact with the pedal. This is fine if you are not doing long distance, but long distance rides and any one who spends more time on the bike than walking when they are wearing their cycling shoes will want to have comfy feet on the bike as well as firmer contact between pedal and foot.. I swapped from spds to Looks because I found the small spd contact area painful and the spd shoes too soft for comfy or efficient pedalling long rides. I don't walk much in my cleats - or want to. Choose spds if you want to walk around whilst wearing your cycling shoes - ie, good for touring when you may only have the one pair of shoes with you or for mtb where you might want to put a foot down or have to walk sections of track. Spds may also be more useful if you intend to use the bike for utility purposes - such as shopping. If you intend to cycle on the road and are not touring or doing your shopping though, why would you need to be able to walk in your cleats - not any further than the counter at your cafe stop anyway.

turkeytickler

I believe its to do with a combination of;
- wider pedal plaftorm reducing hot spots on the sole of the feet longer time in saddle and more repetetive peddling action
- only need float on 1 axis (even that is optional)
- brings the sole closer to the axle
- improved clearance
- the ability to walk gracefully on cleats being largely redundant due to the stiffness of the sole

I use SPD SL on my road bikes and SPD on my commuter - both of which are good but , SPD SLs are much more comfortable over a long distance because the pressure of the pedal is spread over a wider area.

redddraggon

simbil1 wrote:

SPD-SL isn't exactly light - 310g for Ultegra.
One sided Shimano touring SPDs are 318g
One sided Ritchey SPDs are only 208g.

But the shoes are a lot lighter

simbil1

Is there any science behind the claims for more efficiency with a stiffer sole and a wider contact area? (Not saying there isn't, just never seen anything).

From an efficiency standpoint, I would have thought a close contact from ball of foot to axle would be key. A wide platform and stiff sole would both seem to be methods to cope with poor pedalling biomechanics on the face of it.

simbil1

redddraggon wrote:

simbil1 wrote:

SPD-SL isn't exactly light - 310g for Ultegra.
One sided Shimano touring SPDs are 318g
One sided Ritchey SPDs are only 208g.

But the shoes are a lot lighter

Not if you get road shoes that are SPD compatible
Agree that MTB shoes are generally lead weights though.

redddraggon

simbil1 wrote:

Not if you get road shoes that are SPD compatible

You get the worst of both worlds then, poor for walking, and a smaller contact area.

mercsport

I've got to go out in a minute ! But will have to say that I've been trans continental on tours wearing nobbut spd'd Sidi Ghosts , a mtb shoe . An old version of one of their road shoes of the time . No prob's , other than the rock hard plastic of the treaded sole , not wanting to grip the pavement much and nearly as inclined to skate , when new , as a road shoe if not careful .
The newest shoes I have are a pair of Sidi Action's , a screw on treaded version of their road Ergo's . The treads are far more soft and pliable and allow normal caredree walking . They're great ! The sole , like my other shoes , appears as stiff as the road Ergo's in that they will not flex , if at all ( They also cost the same small fortune ) . The oft quoted 'hot-spot' upon the foot's sole I have never experienced and lean toward the sceptical re. that .
Must blow town !!!!

simbil1

redddraggon wrote:

simbil1 wrote:

Not if you get road shoes that are SPD compatible

You get the worst of both worlds then, poor for walking, and a smaller contact area.

Depends what your after - if you like the SPD feel and want a light pedal/shoe system you get the best of both worlds!

Smokin Joe

I like SPDs, but unfortunately they don't like me. I tried them for a short while but had to switch back to Look type pedals after getting knee problems when I was climbing out of the saddle. The narrow SPDs let my size 9 feet overhang the edge of the pedal and my foot was twisting down over the edge and straining the knee joint when I was standing. It cleared upi as soon as I stopped using the spuds.

Funninly enough, when first using SPDs I didn't notice any difference in the contact area, but as soon as I changed back the extra support was very apparant.

Monty Dog

I use both clipless road and MTB pedals and shoes. The small SPD cleats means that your feet rock too much laterally when really putting the power down, which can be disconcerting. The larger road cleats also provide for more rotational float as well as the pedal spindle being closer to the foot. With road shoes I feel a lot more 'connected' to the bike, the shoe and pedal combo is lighter and I don't get 'hot spots' from the cleats. Clipless pedals IME are one of the biggest improvements in bike technology in the last 20 years - I tried some old clips, straps and race shoes a while ago and the pain and flimsiness were astounding. For casual or non-competivie use, SPDs are fine, but if you plan on racing or riding fast, you want every advantage you can get.

nmcgann

I use SPDs with MTB boots all winter, but switch to Look Keos the rest of the year.

The bottom line is that the Looks give a much better connection to the pedal at the expense of a duck effect when walking. I get a year out of Keo cleats (at least) by using cleat covers when walking off the bike, so the wear is pretty acceptable IMO.

When I race (only club TTs) I'd never use SPDs, the shoes move around far too much when applying serious forces to the pedals.

Similarly - when I'm just pottering around I wear SPDs since I can walk round town in them and look fairly normal.

It's horses for courses.

Neil

Garybee

Similar here, SPDs for commuting, Keos for everything else. SPDs feel horrible when you ramp up the effort, a very poor connection between shoe and pedal (compared to road cleats).

nasahapley

I use spds with mtb race shoes - basically just road shoes with a bit of extra plastic on the sole to prevent you walking like a total mincer! Never had any problems with hot spots or lateral movement, but as NMcgann said it's each to their own.

It's being interesting to read the responses to this, I asked pretty much the same question when I went down to my local club for the first time:
'Why don't you use mtb shoes that you can walk in?'
'Road men don't use them'
'But why not, they're loads more practical surely'
'Road men don't use mtb shoes'
'Oh, right....'

I'm glad to say the forum has been much more illuminating

The The

nasahapley wrote:

It's being interesting to read the responses to this, I asked pretty much the same question when I went down to my local club for the first time:
'Why don't you use mtb shoes that you can walk in?'
'Road men don't use them'
'But why not, they're loads more practical surely'
'Road men don't use mtb shoes'
'Oh, right....'

Surely it's appropriate and valid enough to say that we use road shoes and pedals simply because they are made for road bikes, whereas MTB shoes and pedals are designed for mountain bikes?

That, and the larger contact area with the shoe and pedal suits road riding, and some of the riders, better than SPD pedals.

I don't think anyone needs to justify their reasons for using road pedals on a road bike, even if others think MTB shoes and SPD pedals work better. I don't like SPDs, never did like SPDs and wish not to ride on them again. They have poor float and the contact area is so small that I find it annoying and distracting.

nickwill

In the end, you ride in what you find comfortable. I loathe SPDs because the platform isn't big enough. With Keos my feet and pedal function as one unit. Road pedals for road cycling, and MTB pedals for MTB cycling in my opinion. Touring and utility cycling are a crossover area and so I guess you could go either way.

simbil1

The The wrote:

Surely it's appropriate and valid enough to say that we use road shoes and pedals simply because they are made for road bikes, whereas MTB shoes and pedals are designed for mountain bikes?

If you don't know why you are using something I'd argue that marketers might be simply taking you for a ride. It's in their interest for you to have 2 sets of kit if you MTB and road bike.
If you have tried both and appreciate the difference that's different - contact points are down to personal preference. Also, if there are any scientific studies (anyone?) showing advantages, again that is different.

I'm surprised so many have issues with support from SPDs under pressure. A healthy foot can perch happily on the ball of the foot directly over the SPD cleat. If your biomechanics are pushing your foot down laterally it suggests your knee is not tracking properly and even with SPD-SL this may lead to knee issues eventually.

andrewgturnbull

nasahapley wrote:

I use spds with mtb race shoes - basically just road shoes with a bit of extra plastic on the sole to prevent you walking like a total mincer! Never had any problems with hot spots or lateral movement, but as NMcgann said it's each to their own.

It's being interesting to read the responses to this, I asked pretty much the same question when I went down to my local club for the first time:
'Why don't you use mtb shoes that you can walk in?'
'Road men don't use them'
'But why not, they're loads more practical surely'
'Road men don't use mtb shoes'
'Oh, right....'

I'm glad to say the forum has been much more illuminating

Hi there.

Putting spd-style pedals on a road bike is just the thin end of the wedge. The start of a slippery slope that leads to complete and utter social disintegration.

First you'll find yourself unclipping at traffic lights, then you'll be tempted into a cafe stop mid ride. While you're stirring butter into your already sugary tea you'll find yourself growing a beard. You'll suddenly start thinking mudguards are a great idea, look down on those with a tendancy to risk sprinting for a 30 sign. Why didn't you ever think of using panniers before? And I wonder what kind of linseed oil Brooks recommend for softening up those lovely rivetted leather saddles.

Once you were young and fit, but take your eye off the ball and you'll end up as a... tourer. Arghh!

Cheers, Andy

Smokin Joe

andrewgturnbull wrote:

nasahapley wrote:

I use spds with mtb race shoes - basically just road shoes with a bit of extra plastic on the sole to prevent you walking like a total mincer! Never had any problems with hot spots or lateral movement, but as NMcgann said it's each to their own.

It's being interesting to read the responses to this, I asked pretty much the same question when I went down to my local club for the first time:
'Why don't you use mtb shoes that you can walk in?'
'Road men don't use them'
'But why not, they're loads more practical surely'
'Road men don't use mtb shoes'
'Oh, right....'

I'm glad to say the forum has been much more illuminating

Hi there.

Putting spd-style pedals on a road bike is just the thin end of the wedge. The start of a slippery slope that leads to complete and utter social disintegration.

First you'll find yourself unclipping at traffic lights, then you'll be tempted into a cafe stop mid ride. While you're stirring butter into your already sugary tea you'll find yourself growing a beard. You'll suddenly start thinking mudguards are a great idea, look down on those with a tendancy to risk sprinting for a 30 sign. Why didn't you ever think of using panniers before? And I wonder what kind of linseed oil Brooks recommend for softening up those lovely rivetted leather saddles.

Once you were young and fit, but take your eye off the ball and you'll end up as a... tourer. Arghh!

Cheers, Andy

That post should be removed by the moderators.

There are impressionable youngsters using this forum, and they may well be traumatised by the thought of ending up as a bearded tourer. :shock:

Ste_S

mercsport wrote:

Hmmmmn . Maybe .
Lighter : well O.K. , I'll accept that . Except that I think it's marginal at best .
A better connection twixt shoe and pedal ? No , I can't accept that . Particularly when the guys I know running Look type systems seem to have to renew their plasticky shoe plates every few months .
Further , don't some trackies cherish their early Dura-Ace SPD racer pedals like gold for exactly that reason ?

Not SPD, SPD-R's, the forerunner to SPD-SL. Purely because they can be used in combination with straps iirc.

I tried using SPD pedals on the track once, bloomin' horrible - felt as though I was going to pull the cleat off the bottom of the shoe. Feel much more secure using a three bolt system such as Look over the two bolt of SPD.

nasahapley

andrewgturnbull wrote:

nasahapley wrote:

I use spds with mtb race shoes - basically just road shoes with a bit of extra plastic on the sole to prevent you walking like a total mincer! Never had any problems with hot spots or lateral movement, but as NMcgann said it's each to their own.

It's being interesting to read the responses to this, I asked pretty much the same question when I went down to my local club for the first time:
'Why don't you use mtb shoes that you can walk in?'
'Road men don't use them'
'But why not, they're loads more practical surely'
'Road men don't use mtb shoes'
'Oh, right....'

I'm glad to say the forum has been much more illuminating

Hi there.

Putting spd-style pedals on a road bike is just the thin end of the wedge. The start of a slippery slope that leads to complete and utter social disintegration.

First you'll find yourself unclipping at traffic lights, then you'll be tempted into a cafe stop mid ride. While you're stirring butter into your already sugary tea you'll find yourself growing a beard. You'll suddenly start thinking mudguards are a great idea, look down on those with a tendancy to risk sprinting for a 30 sign. Why didn't you ever think of using panniers before? And I wonder what kind of linseed oil Brooks recommend for softening up those lovely rivetted leather saddles.

Once you were young and fit, but take your eye off the ball and you'll end up as a... tourer. Arghh!

Cheers, Andy

Christ, what have I done?! I was in the first throes of becoming a tourer and I was totally unaware :shock: I've only been road riding for 6 months too!!! Hopefully the fact that I've only got one full-carbon bike, with no mudguard or pannier mounting points, will immunise me for the time being

Thanks for the laugh Andy

The The

simbil1 wrote:

If you don't know why you are using something I'd argue that marketers might be simply taking you for a ride. It's in their interest for you to have 2 sets of kit if you MTB and road bike.
If you have tried both and appreciate the difference that's different - contact points are down to personal preference. Also, if there are any scientific studies (anyone?) showing advantages, again that is different..

I do know why I'm using my pedals and I am certainly not being taken for a ride.

I've used both and never really likelike SPDs for the MTB, which I no longer own. I prefer road pedals and that's all I own at the moment..

geoff_ss

I'm with mercsport and simbil on this issue.

I use SPD pedals with Carnac shoes that are indistinguishable from normal road shoes as well as a pair of Shimano sandals that are wonderful for hot weather riding. I've ridden audaxes up to 400 km (in 20 hours) on SPDs in complete comfort so distance/time isn't an issue either. At the moment I'm using single sided Shimano A520 pedals which do offer a bigger platform and are very comfortable.

Most of my cycling is touring, I suppose, with odd bit of utility riding (ie shopping) thrown in and SPDs are ideal for that. Whenever I go out on my bike there's always the possibilty that I'll see something interesting that involves me in some walking. I'm not interested in my average speed for a ride but I am interested to see where I am and to enjoy the experience.

I'm also old enough to remember Christophe toe clips (easily!) but I only used to bother with shoe plates for racing. For all other riding I used either Sidi touring shoes which had shaped soles that made pedalling easy and walking possible or Pete Salisbury hand made leather shoes.

Geoff

kevin_stephens

Look Keos ae far better than SPDs for riding
And most of the "walking around"problems can be avoided by rubber cleat covers, and heels (which my sidi shoes have)

aracer

I'm with those who don't see a problem with using SPDs (original version) for riding. I don't actually see what the advantage of Look for example is, since if you use a carbon soled road shoe as I do, there is no flex in the sole, so it's impossible to tell what size platform you're on. If you also use the pontoons designed for road SPD, there is no wobbling on the pedal. I've been using SPDs on all my bikes for over 10 years now - it means I have the choice of either using road shoes if I don't plan to get off the bike, or MTB shoes if I do. This is for road racing and time-trialling as well as general riding - no problem with getting the power down.

Regarding shoes, whilst the road shoes are a bit stiffer, with the latest generation of carbon soled MTB shoes, there is very little in it, and you can walk better in the MTB shoes. Contrarily given I use SPD pedals, so could just use MTB shoes, I still have road shoes for the slightly lighter weight, and the slight increase in pedalling efficiency. Have done more mileage in a week touring with MTB shoes though, without noticing any issue with comfort (and it's not like I'm only pedalling gently - we average 18mph with a loaded tandem!)

Of course if you want all the advantages of both, you can always do what off-road racers did back in the day (and some still do), and use a road shoe with some tread stuck on around the cleat.