Riders can request DNA test against Puerto evidence

iainf72

http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.co ... allow.html

Oh man, this could be priceless. Especially in a situation if Bertie asked for it and Valv.piti didn't.

Who wants to write to CSC and demand all their riders do it? I've got a shiney coin which says we'd get at least one match....

Richrd2205

It'd be great if this means that Puerto can be finally put to bed & the endless gossip & conjecture can stop. I have a sneaky feeling that the UCI will find a way to mess it up yet though....
I'm intrigued as to whether you're referring to someone in particular on CSC &, if so, whom. I noticed whilst reading their website the other day that an american rider's achievements plummeted in 2007 when the Damsgaard stuff was brought in. Is this who you meant?

afx237vi

But as CFA points out, having your blood cross-tested and coming up negative doesn't necessarily mean you weren't a client of Fuentes.

Fuentes had multiple clinics all over Europe didn't he? All Contador has to do is phone up Fuentes and ask if his blood is in any of those bags. Maybe he had already used his and didn't have any in storage. Maybe it was stored elsewhere.

iainf72

afx237vi wrote:

But as CFA points out, having your blood cross-tested and coming up negative doesn't necessarily mean you weren't a client of Fuentes.

Fuentes had multiple clinics all over Europe didn't he? All Contador has to do is phone up Fuentes and ask if his blood is in any of those bags. Maybe he had already used his and didn't have any in storage. Maybe it was stored elsewhere.

Correct. But where does this madness stop? Anyone who does a test will just be accused of knowing they had nothing there.

There hasn't been a suggestion that Bertie had blood there (AFAIK) but there is for Valverde

DaveyL

Richrd2205 wrote:

It'd be great if this means that Puerto can be finally put to bed & the endless gossip & conjecture can stop. I have a sneaky feeling that the UCI will find a way to mess it up yet though....
I'm intrigued as to whether you're referring to someone in particular on CSC &, if so, whom. I noticed whilst reading their website the other day that an american rider's achievements plummeted in 2007 when the Damsgaard stuff was brought in. Is this who you meant?

Do you mean Dave Zabriskie? Or Christian Van de Velde? I can't think of any other US riders who were on the CSC roster.

Would a rider's form drop if the Damsgaard stuff was just a smokescreen? I think the conspiracy theorists need to get together and sort their stories out.

andy_wrx

I think there are two Americans on CSC's current roster, one who's ridden for them for several years and one who's new this year from Disco...

Richrd2205

Davey
The rider I was referring to was Bobby Julich. If you look at his palmares pre & post Damsgaard, there's a fairly significant drop. To be fair, he's also 37, so it could be age related. But then so's Jens Voigt & he won a few things last year.
I'm suggesting that the Damsgaard monitoring may have prevented some doping, so was flicking through to look for drops in form between 06 & 07. In fact, such a drop would be prima facie evidence that the monitoring was working, if you choose not to believe that the most successful team was the only one not doping at the time.
So no great conspiracy, just looking for some evidence. Unfortunately, I had neither the time nor concentration to carry on...

DaveyL

http://www.team-csc.com/person_profiles.asp

As far as I can see, Jason McCartney is the only American currently on CSC's roster. But the prevous poster was talking about 2007. When there are only two possible suspects, it's hardly being coy or mysterious to not name names. Unless one thinks one's being clever...

DaveyL

Damn, I'd forgotten about Bobby.

So, is it the case the the riders whose results haven't changed post-Damsgaard weren't doping pre-, and those whose results have dropped off were doping pre-? I wonder if it's as straightforward as that.

What we really need is for some real expert to come forward and say, "If I was one of the Damsgaard riders and I was trying to dope and beat the system, this is what I'd do". We need to know how feasible it is for riders to get away with doping under this regime, that would give these programmes more credibility (I;m not saying they don't have any at the moment).

Great how this thread has been totally derailed! To return to the OP - I look forward to hoardes of athletes beating a path to the spanish judge, blood sample in hand. As if...

Richrd2205

DaveyL wrote:

Damn, I'd forgotten about Bobby.

Looking at his 2007 results, you're probably not the only one!

So, is it the case the the riders whose results haven't changed post-Damsgaard weren't doping pre-, and those whose results have dropped off were doping pre-? I wonder if it's as straightforward as that.

No, it's not as straightforward as that. One of the things that has consistently come up in the endless doping discussions is people looking for certainty, rather than accepting that it's all shades of grey. Doping is one of many factors that can affect results (such as injury, psychological state, amount of training, desire to win, age,motivation, competition, tactics etc). Some of these factors will be on the public record & some won't. It appears from the roster that you posted that many riders had (to a greater or lesser degree) a worse 2007 than 2006. The possibility that jumps to mind is that doping was reduced & results suffered. There are a number of other possibilities also. When looked at on an individual level, this sort of thing gets terribly unreliable, but when looked at on a macro level, tends to indicate things. What'll be interesting this year is to see if those CSC riders who suffered a dip in form in 2007 recover in 2008 with the advent of the biological passport & the roll out of other programs. It'll also be interesting to see what happens to the surviving Astana riders from last year. By the end of the season, we should be able to come to a conclusion that: doping is reducing & the peloton is cleaner; or that the testing doesn't work/dopers can elude it/everyone who was doping previously has been caught (aye, right!)

What we really need is for some real expert to come forward and say, "If I was one of the Damsgaard riders and I was trying to dope and beat the system, this is what I'd do". We need to know how feasible it is for riders to get away with doping under this regime, that would give these programmes more credibility (I;m not saying they don't have any at the moment).

Unfortunately, about as likely as the UCI getting it together... If the system is avoidable, there's too much vested interest in this not being revealed.

Great how this thread has been totally derailed! To return to the OP - I look forward to hoardes of athletes beating a path to the spanish judge, blood sample in hand. As if...

Yep, sorry for the thread hijack!

iainf72

I wasn't suggesting an American - Some of you, who are sad like me and remember rumours might remember it was suggested someone - a name for the future, may have been linked....

A friend of Ivan's. Mind you, they've all (with the exception of Jens it seems) remained tight with Basso.

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Do you mean Dave Zabriskie? Or Christian Van de Velde? I can't think of any other US riders who were on the CSC roster.

Wasn't there talk the Dave Z's fall in form was to do with medication he was taking?

I'm not sure if it was true though - But I definately remember something. LangerDan might remember.

dave_1

Tyler should come forward...he needs this DNA thing done. Valv Piti's 2003 Vuelta left me incredulous at the time...he climbed like pantani and sprinted like Pettachi.

Re Tyler, when his 2 year ban has been turned into a four year ban despite the rules saying 2, why should he respect the rules himself?

DaveyL

I think there was a story that Dave Z was possibly suffering from bipolar disorder (not sure about that bit) bipolar and was on anti-depressant medication (a bit more sure about that bit).

dave_1

a certain frenchman who sunk a certain rider's career for a few years made claims against other English speakers on his then team...it was removed by Mods 3 years back when, I think, but not 100% sure, person by handle Sing for Absolution, posted it..

clue is...go to a cafe and Amiens...he runs it

TheHog

Actually Bobby Julich started getting worse already in 2006. He won the prologue in Paris - Nice and finished 3rd overall in the Tour of California that year. However those are two of the earliest races in the season, he didn't do much the rest of the year.

afx237vi

But if we're talking about Bobby Julich, I remember when he had no form whatsoever on T-Mobile (along with lots of other big name flops) and people were using that as evidence of T-Mobile being a clean team!

So form / lack of form doesn't really prove much, knowing what we now know about T-Mobile.

iainf72

Does no one remember a Dutch newspaper reported Amigo de Birillo was Frank Schleck? Now, it's more likely to be Lombardi or Eddy M (assuming you can be friends with someone getting up on your sister - And surely "Lucky Git" would've been a better code for him)

That team needs to do the testing. Unless of course everyone is happy that Ivan was the bad egg?

DaveyL

Dave_1 wrote:

a certain frenchman who sunk a certain rider's career for a few years made claims against other English speakers on his then team...it was removed by Mods 3 years back when, I think, but not 100% sure, person by handle Sing for Absolution, posted it..

clue is...go to a cafe and Amiens...he runs it

Yeah, and near a tree by the river, there's a hole in the ground, where an old man of Arran goes around and around...

Stuff like this serves zero purpose on an internet forum. If the reference is too oblique, no-one will know who you're talking about and if there are enough clues for your average bike racing fan to get it, then you may as well just post the guy's name?

Do you lot think you're on Have I Got News For You or something?

Ooh, this might implicate a certain 7-time Tour winner from Texas. But I couldn't possibly tell you his name!!!!!

avalon

Well a certain Philippe Gaumont owns a cafe in Amiens.
You don't think it could be him do you?

dave_1

avalon wrote:

Well a certain Philippe Gaumont owns a cafe in Amiens.
You don't think it could be him do you?

well researched Avalon

drenkrom

You guys do realize that form varies greatly without any chemical assistance, right? Or maybe my 15 year-old cousin got less-stellar results this last season because he changed doctors. :roll:

Test them. If they come back dirty, chuck 'em out. If not, keep 'em in. This whole guesswork andis becoming ridiculous.

dave_1

drenkrom wrote:

You guys do realize that form varies greatly without any chemical assistance, right? Or maybe my 15 year-old cousin got less-stellar results this last season because he changed doctors. :roll:

Test them. If they come back dirty, chuck 'em out. If not, keep 'em in. This whole guesswork andis becoming ridiculous.

But Indurain at 25 climbing 20 minutes down at 88 TDF and then on to win the TDF and Giro so many times..and Riis's sudden rise to TDF fame...we have look at previous form. Lemond's trajectory shows what a squeaky clean athlete can do...to be a great climber, you will have to have been a quite good climber at the outset, only Lemond survives this test, lance does not

avalon

Dave_1 wrote:

avalon wrote:

Well a certain Philippe Gaumont owns a cafe in Amiens.
You don't think it could be him do you?

well researched Avalon

Wadya mean researched?
He's a mate of mine.The Chateaubriand is excellent!!

ian222

Posted 23 Feb 2008 16:23
You guys do realize that form varies greatly without any chemical assistance, right? Or maybe my 15 year-old cousin got less-stellar results this last season because he changed doctors.

Test them. If they come back dirty, chuck 'em out. If not, keep 'em in. This whole guesswork andis becoming ridiculous.

I agree, test the lot of them.

However, what are is everyone going to gossip about then?

iainf72

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Ope ... 82311.html

Can we just pretend Puerto never happened and move on? This is getting boring now.

micron

That's a good loophole - so Contador and Valv/Piti can request for it to happen and then the Spanish judge will simply reject it? It's a good job that CONI and Ettore aren't prepared to let things be such a farce.

iainf72

micron wrote:

That's a good loophole - so Contador and Valv/Piti can request for it to happen and then the Spanish judge will simply reject it? It's a good job that CONI and Ettore aren't prepared to let things be such a farce.

We'll see. Contador said he's got no issue going to talk to our Italian friend.

Why would Contador request a test - There is no blood attributed to him. The only evidence we know of is the intital AC being used in a document.