RTC? + Road rage - Advice please

jb2008

Hi guys/girls,
Thought I'd canvass opinion on my incident today whilst cycling home:
I was in the cycle lane on a busy road. Traffic was solid with a lot of cars in the cycle path.
I was filtering along and most cars were trying to get out of the cycle path to give me room.
One female motorist saw me and didn't move so as I passed I folded in her wing mirror to avoid collision and continued on in the cycle lane.
There was no reason for her to be there, she had plenty room on her outside.
Anyway, I carried on and 2 minutes later the same car pulled up alongside me with the window down and I received a barrage of four letter abuse which I ignored.
She overtakes, pulls over, gets out and demands that I stop as her mirror is damaged, I consider it as technically thats an RTC but her aggressive manner and previous abuse made me decide to ignore her and continue.
Now I've ran this by two friends who disagree on what I should do.
One says forget it, she was in the cycle lane, her fault, aggressive motorist etc.

The other, who is police staff, says that it was an RTC and an aggressive driver and I should report it as soon as possible with her VRN etc in case the woman accuses me of failing to stop after an RTC?

Anyone have any opinions or experience about this?
Thanks.

turkeytickler

In my opinion - irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the driver's position, and their reaction, folding their mirror in does sound a rather provocative thing to do...

Did you _honestly need_ to fold their mirror in? That would have required a fair degree of force, and therefore balance on the bike.....balance which could otherwise have been used to turn / scoot / whatever around the obstacle (20cm ish wide?).

I had some a*se in a local council rubbish truck overtake me this morning, stop about 10m after that, mount the kerb, and reverse turn into a side road.... totally blocking my path.... not really dangerous, downright inconsiderate and it really p*ssed me off.... but it happens all the time .... save the energy for protesting against the maniacs who actually put your life in danger, and let it lie.... sorry if i misrepresent the situation - maybe it was actually dangerous?

jb2008

I think all my goodwill and patience has been exhausted today.
If that was on my morning ride I'd of sat and waited but as it was I had already endured a dozen incidents of bad road positioning/driving and this unfortunate but unforgivably aggressive woman felt my anger. As for the physics of it, well thats just adrenaline.
I've just bought a headcam. Hopefully it will provide a witness to future incidents but more importantly make me cycle more consciously and not ever attack other road-users.

redddraggon

I would have probably said something like this if an aggressive woman verbally attacked me:

"F@ck off, it's cycle lane, not a f@cking car lane, if you hadn't have been in the f@cking cycle lane it wouldn't have happened, now f@ck off back to your hole."

I would then have "f@cked off" giving her a hand signal, in a direction she couldn't follow.

I don't normally swear, but if people get aggressive with me I won't hold my tongue.

prj45

I wouldn't have folded the mirror in, I'd have had a polite word as long as they weren't in the cycle lane for a reason (i.e. oncoming traffic over the centre line).

Don't like the 'my lane your lane' stuff too much because it works both ways.

Random Vince

hmm, defend the cycle lane too strongly and they'll complain when we're not in it, even if it's got broken glass and a dead shark in there.

folding mirrors in depends on the car, my dad's mirrors fold in really easily, i do it each time i walk past his car and when i've driven it, i've folded them by nudging them gently against the tree at the top of the drive, no damage to car or tree.

mum's mirrors take more effort

and if you fold my mirror in i will have your head on a platter, it isn't meant to fold, doing so will rip the door skin, a part that is impossible to get.

at the end of the day, a foot on the kerb, lean the bike over, back upright - makes her look a bit daft for blocking your way, you get round her with little time lost and she has no leg to stand on.

Random Vince

hmm, defend the cycle lane too strongly and they'll complain when we're not in it, even if it's got broken glass and a dead shark in there.

folding mirrors in depends on the car, my dad's mirrors fold in really easily, i do it each time i walk past his car and when i've driven it, i've folded them by nudging them gently against the tree at the top of the drive, no damage to car or tree.

mum's mirrors take more effort

and if you fold my mirror in i will have your head on a platter, it isn't meant to fold, doing so will rip the door skin, a part that is impossible to get.

at the end of the day, a foot on the kerb, lean the bike over, back upright - makes her look a bit daft for blocking your way, you get round her with little time lost and she has no leg to stand on.

Mithras

First point.
You really shouldn't have touched her car, even if you haven't damaged the mirror it leaves you open to a claim of criminal damage.The only time a cyclist should consider touching somones car is if they are close enough and in a situation to be threatening your life.
I can't find any reason why this should be counted as an RTC.

BentMikey

In future don't ride in the cycle lane - instead overtake properly on the outside. One lorry driver called on-road cycle lanes "execution zones".

Papa Smurf

Could you really of not gone around or lifted your bars over and leaned the bike in towards the kerb to get past?

I'm in that exact situation most days and all I do is come up slow, make it blatently obvious I'm having trouble getting (Just to prove a point), maybe say a few things like "Oh look, cycle lanes are for cars now too , nice of them to tell me".

My point being that I generally try to make it obvious that they're in the wrong by being in the cycle lane, and thus causing a problem to me.
If they get abusive, they get it back 10 fold. Dirty looks will be given back and the same goes for aggressive behavior. In the rare case I get the said person trying to put me into the kerb or whatever it's quickly followed by a full force kick into their door.

But actually moving their mirror (which requires force) is a no no, that's way to provocative. You gotta see it from their view, their there in their own little world when suddenly a cyclist is man handling their mirror for perhaps no obvious reason they can see, so their first reaction is to give you a world of sh1t.

Alibran

In answer to your question, I would say report it to the police. Cover yourself.

I've folded in door mirrors on a few occasions when cars have been positioned stupidly, but since I do it with the side of a bus, the drivers seem to recognise the sense of not arguing about it!

dirk_van_gently

It's very unlikely that you did damage the mirror, just some stupid cow with too much testosterone.
As a pedestrian I frequently fold car mirrors in when they are parked on the footpath, even if there is plenty of room to get by, I want them to see how stupid parking on footpaths is.

niblue

Probably best not to report it to the police. Even if the driver was breaking the law by being in the cycle lane (and I'm not sure they necessary are) it doesn't give you any legal right to touch their car, given you had plenty of alternatives.

Given I'm a cyclist and a car-driver I wouldn't have been blocking the cycle lane anway, but there are a number of cyclists out there who seem to treat all car drivers as the enemy and I've had such cyclists make contact with my car (e.g. when they're weaving through traffic) without any good reason at all.

BentMikey

Using an AirZound might be a better telling off than mirror folding, though I can't say I blame you for being tempted to fold her mirror.

Random Vince

Papa Smurf wrote:

Could you really of not lifted your bars over .

wheelie!!!!!

sorry, thought humour was needed in here and couldn't resist,

itsaghostcar

How impatient has society become? Suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and a cyclist feels that literally pushing their way through the traffic is justified.

Same question we ask the drivers - how much time did you really save? If you can't slow down and lean the bike past them or go around on the other side, is it that bad to have to wait for a little bit before you get a gap you can fit through?

Cycling through traffic takes some advanced planning. The cars are never really going to be in a straight line as drivers often move left and right to get a view of what is up ahead. I generally find in this sort of situation that overtaking on the right hand side of the cars is usually easiest, but sometimes have to weave between the left and the right or wait. Don't forget, the drivers may not immediately spot you. If you are stuck, roll up beside the front windows and you should get noticed. Catch their eye and give em a thumbs up when they move to thank them - doesn't hurt (in fact you'll feel better about it), and helps the attitudes towards the rest of us on two wheels.

gtvlusso

Daunting story!

Personally, I rise to nothing as far as abuse goes....I don't care about it. I think the Police phrase is RTA - road traffic incident. I must admit that as a motorcyclist I have knocked off a few mirrors in my life.......however, I am over my "angry" period.


However, I did have a similiar incident involving a young, business like, female in a new mini cabriolet. Her resulting decision of changing lane whilst I was next to her in a cycle lane jammed me between her and a bus (however did she not see a flaming bus!!!!!). The cycle lane goes in between 2 traffic lanes on a one way system in my city.
Anyhow - my handlebar went through her rear window and into the lining of the cabrio roof. My pedal badly dented and scratched up the panels of her car and I made some dents in the bus! Suffice to say the bus driver immediatley stopped and ran around to make sure I was okay - the young lady just barraged me with abuse and threatened to sue me. The bus driver agreed with me on the incident (ladies fault) and gave me his details - we pulled my bike out of the mess and, sadly (!), the ladies roof came with my handlebar (it was raining too!). Anyhow, the young lady was still being incrdibly abusive (I mean nasty!) - so I simply scooted off down a cycle track and back on my way. The bus had gone on it's way and she did not have the buses details nor mine, to busy being offensive, I simply said to her "Do you know my name?" - she responded "no" - so I went on my way.

No damage as such to my old bike and no injuries to me - her car was a wreck though!! At the end of the day she could have reported "a cyclist on a blue bike", but I still had a witness and how many cyclists are there on blue bikes in my cityl? I would have dealt with the situation if I was at fault, but she simply was not going to be reasonable or sensible and continued the abuse - she would have fought all the way and been awkward or cried to the Police (has happened to me before!) - as I said, I was okay and I had a witness. This happened last year.....nothing heard from anyone about it. Probably about £5000 of damage to her new car though - kinda satisfying in a way. Some people just don't want to be fair or sensible - they don't even see injury they may have caused or potential death, they just see cash and are up for a fight....Stuff them!

Does anyone have any suggestion about what they would have done? I am not saying I was right to just bugger off - but I thought - stuff her!

mailmannz

Random Vince wrote:

hmm, defend the cycle lane too strongly and they'll complain when we're not in it, even if it's got broken glass and a dead shark in there.

So you come across dead sharks in cycle lanes often where you bike?

Mailman

t4tomo

if you've not seen a dead shark in a cycle lane before you really should get out more mailman.

jb2008

Thanks for the feedback.
In hindsight it was overkill and I'm sorry for contributing to the image of the aggressive cyclist. Like many things, it seemed like the right thing to do at the time. :oops:
I should have explained that this cycle lane is unusual in that it is on the right side of a fast slip road and is easily the most dangerous part of my commute, for what little difference it makes. I've not seen many like this, perhaps it's a new thread altogether: Most dangerous cycle paths?
Here's a pic courtesy of google-earth. I've copy pasted some cars to scale to paint the scene of the incident. Red dot denotes the car involved. That main road is a 40 with cars averaging 50. The hatched area has bollards every metre making it a no-go.

Random Vince

slowed down and woven through the bollards?

I play slalom with a set of bollards in the university car park that are about a meter spaced

jb2008

Random Vince wrote:

slowed down and woven through the bollards?

I play slalom with a set of bollards in the university car park that are about a meter spaced

Appreciated, but I doubt you have lorries passing those bollards at 45mph?
This stretch of road is too dangerous to play around in the bollards.
If it happens again I'll just sit and wait for the traffic to clear, perhaps film it and send it to the council who are keen for more people to 'get on their bikes' but won't back it up with any investment.

prj45

gtvlusso wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestion about what they would have done? I am not saying I was right to just bugger off - but I thought - stuff her!

I would have given her my details, and been quite smug when the case was dropped or her insurance company decided not to pursue it because it considered it her fault.

Sliiiighty risky in that they may have found you partically or fully to blame, but I'm sure fellow cyclists who pay into the central insurance pot would support the use of the insurance fund to fight it, (you do have third party don't you!?).

GEPC

I think in situations like this we need to think about what we are like in the various roles we take on an around roads. All of us here are cyclists and when we are cyclists we see the worst in drivers and pedestrians.

However when I am crossing a road and am only 3/4 of the way accross when the light changes from red to flashing amber I get pissed off by cyclists who ride at me and make me run to ge out of the way. However I know that when I am on my bike I will be thinking, "get off the road pedestrian its mine now".

Likewise on the rare occasions I drive in London I know that its possible to find, without any intent to do so, that my car has ended up being forced to stop in a place I wouldn't want it to be. But traffic stops and you find yourself thinking "shit, didn't mean to stop here" and if a cyclist was pissed off wtih me I would apologise and move as quick as I could. Fact is though I wouldn't ge a chance to aplogise as the cyclist with his cycling first head on would have given me the finger and been on his way or in your case folded in my wing mirror, which even as a cyclist temporarily in a car would really piss me off as its extremely provocative.

At risk of sounding like some kind of do gooding hippy we all use the roads so lets not say you can't come into the cycle lane because we don't think twice about riding primary and defending our right to the whole lane when we think its what is safest for us.

I know its easy to be fair to all sitting at home after a couple of drinks and anyone who read my rant the other day about an arsehole who cut me up then tried to run me off the road and threatened me will know that I am not always so even tempered. I also know where that bloke parks his car and everytime I see it I will and accident on his wing mirrors!

prj45

jb2008 wrote:

If it happens again I'll just sit and wait for the traffic to clear

A polite word with the driver wouldn't go a miss. Bit of edjamacation is well worth it.

Contact your local cycling groups too to see if you can't get something done about the pathway.

Drfabulous0

jb2008, I would just have waited or gone around and given a friendly toot on the air zound with a smile and a wave (they really hate that, it makes them feel silly). I've had a driver stop in a bike lane in front of me before and not having space to stop or maneuvre I removed his mirror completely with my bars. After a polite word the driver admitted it was his mistake and as a gesture of goodwill I sorted him a replacement mirror at trade price, I bet he pays more attention to his road position now.

gtvlusso, I would have kicked right off at that, at best it's driving without due care and attention, at worst it's attempted murder, no way would I have just left and let her get away with it, the next person she does it to might not be so lucky.

Gazzaputt

BentMikey wrote:

In future don't ride in the cycle lane - instead overtake properly on the outside. One lorry driver called on-road cycle lanes "execution zones".

Sorry but that is suicidal advice and ill though out.

Random Vince

i was more thinking i'd wait for a gap in traffic and go round the bollard's, i'd only be there a seccond.

but then i'll happily ride down the A45 from coventry to rugby which is duel carageway and a 60mph limit.

well I'll not be doing that again for a long time due to the ear ache from millie...

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

Gazzaputt wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

In future don't ride in the cycle lane - instead overtake properly on the outside. One lorry driver called on-road cycle lanes "execution zones".

Sorry but that is suicidal advice and ill though out.

Why? The fact is that most cycle lanes are death traps: cars don't expect to be 'undertaken' and so are often not looking in your direction + anything big will squish if you're on its inside, they don't see you and they take a left...

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but I reckon that 9 times out of ten you are far safer filtering on the outside where traffic can see you and you can see it..,

saveswalking

Sea_Green_Incorruptible wrote:

Gazzaputt wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

In future don't ride in the cycle lane - instead overtake properly on the outside. One lorry driver called on-road cycle lanes "execution zones".

Sorry but that is suicidal advice and ill though out.

Why? The fact is that most cycle lanes are death traps: cars don't expect to be 'undertaken' and so are often not looking in your direction + anything big will squish if you're on its inside, they don't see you and they take a left...

I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but I reckon that 9 times out of ten you are far safer filtering on the outside where traffic can see you and you can see it..,

'undertaking' vehicles ( in a cycle lane or not) can get scary when the vehicle moves in left to allow space for an 'overtaking' cyclist on the right ...

see that quite alot

sw

DavidTQ

Gazzaputt wrote:

BentMikey wrote:

In future don't ride in the cycle lane - instead overtake properly on the outside. One lorry driver called on-road cycle lanes "execution zones".

Sorry but that is suicidal advice and ill though out.

No its certainly not take a l ook at some of my videos, whats more suicidal staying in a car ridden undersized cycle lane or moving out to those lovely acres of space on the outside...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxQOhpBiB0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOtMjCfjEnU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bnu7HT43_5M

Im filtering at the same pace as mr moped, in fact a lot of the time hes holding me up . For the 2 miles of our route that ran together he was filtering the same as me and I was at least as fast as he was, many times if I had wanted to I could easily have overtaken him. but didnt see the need. I was still far faster than the traffic...