campag vs shimano
Comments
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I haven't used anything higher than ultegra, and being a campag fan have used mostly chorus or thereabouts. Nevertheless I've always been amazed at how good the cheaper Shimano gear is for the price. I have shimano gear on a mountain bike, everything else is campag, give or take brake calipers on two bikes - tiagra and long-reach ultegra, both of which are excellent.
The main things that have kept me on campag are the cable issue, and the way the ergos work. In the old days of down-tube friction gear levers the difference used to be that campag was smoother but shimano was perhaps more accurate and "clunked", but I understand most shimano's pretty smooth these days. As for the loud freehub, I have a pair of khamsin wheels on which the freehub is loud, a Mirage hub that's loud (admittedly both at the cheap end), but a Centaur rear hub which is silky quiet, so maybe they've found a way to tame the dreaded clicking, which I didn't find a problem anyway.
For chainsets, I haven't used Shimano, I've really liked the old square taper chainsets, but on my latest bike I've used an ISIS drive FSA which is so solid and straight with no discernible flexing that I think I'll never buy an old style chainset again. If Octalink is as good as ISIS drive, and campag are now proposing you send their ultra torque chainsets back for bearing replacement.... then forget campag for the chainset. If you're not bothered about easthetic then presumably you're not bothered about mixing and matching - I've got all campag on the bike with the FSA chainset and it works beautifully together, every bit as well as the other bike that's all campag. on my tourer I've got ergos, campag mechs but a shimano cassette and deore chainset and it all works together so smoothly I'd never know it wasn't supposed to.
When I was a kid, campag was twice the price of Shimano but you could get every little nut and bolt as a spare, nowdays it isn't quite that good but you can still get spares for ergos, and I hear you can even convert 9sp to 10sp, though I haven't tried any of that myself, all I've done is got spares to repair old 9sp ergos. Shimano were always terrible for that - if it goes wrong you just buy a new one. For me that goes against the grain, but if initial cost is an issue it might not matter to you.
Check how the levers work - I happen to prefer the campag way of doing it, with the cable-pulling lever under the brake lever and the release lever by your thumb - I think shimano Sora have done it so the release lever is by your thumb but the brake lever itself is still the cable-pulling one. If shimano are now doing concealed gear cables then the that issue is one less difference.
Shimano chains I've used haven't lasted at all well, but that's not a problem, I use the sachs (or sram?) equivalent and it's fine, though that's just up to 9sp, I don't know how good the 10sp version is. Campag chains have been fine.
Brakes - I like campag for smoothness and they're powerful enough, shimanos that I've used are a bit brutal, but I'm not really comparing like with like since I've only used up to ultegra, but have used centaur, daytona and chorus which I think are higher up the scale and more expensive. "A bit brutal" might just mean a different "progression curve" that I'm not used to, i.e. they come on quite strong to start with and as you pull harder you don't get much more whereas campag just seem prefectly progressive, the pressure you apply to the lever seem proportional to the pressure on rim. I'm sure it's just a matter of what you're used to.
Campag now do "differential" brakes - the rear is a single pivot. I started a thread on that here, where most replies were that people thought it was a good idea. I got a pair not realizing that's how they would be, and HATED them. I think only one person, like me, thought it was cr@p. The rear brake is weaker than the front. I can't stand it myself. You might not mind, but it's another thing to consider.0 -
That's a poor reason not to choose Campag. If you pay attention to all the instructions on Campag kit you wouldn't consider installing or maintaining anything yourself - of course those instructions are simply for the US market so they can disclaim liability if you do work on the parts yourself. Nothing difficult about changing the chainrings, and even the UT bearing change is hardly rocket science - you just need a fairly conventional bearing puller.mab bee wrote:Before you make a decision, read the instructions for Campy ultra-torque chainsets. You'll see that they are so ridiculously over-complicated compared to Shimano hollowtech II.Essentially, you can't replace the bearings yourselfthe cranks have to be sent off too havthe bearings pulled and then re-pressed into position). Furthermore, the instructions tell you not to change the chainrings youslef (or risk, and I quote 'Death or serious injury').
Not that I'm particularly wedded to either system - most of my bikes are Shimano, but the new one is mostly Record because I prefer the look.0 -
I like both and the one is better than the other argument is tedious beyond belief.
I WOULD like to see ceramic beariings as standard in both DA and Record. That would be a performance upgrade worth having.
DA getting rid of the exposed cables is a big move forward aesthetically ... will be interesting to see if shifting remains as good ... i actually prefer the rear shifting of shimano but the front of campag!
i prefer campag hoods and the generally more low profile, classy look to it.0 -
He was also the first person to win the Tour using Shimano components. Which would suggest, by Dennis' logic, that Campag was better?aarw wrote:dennisn wrote:I don't really care but thought I would pose this question. How in the world could any man win seven TDF's using just plain junk, "Dura-Ace", 9 speed crap garbage when, clearly,
Campy record 10 speed is the vastly superior component group? Oh, of course, he was on drugs and it's a known fact that no Campy rider ever would disgrace the brand that
way. Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Dennis Noward
Because he was paid to?
Both make very good groupsets. Pick the one you prefer, be it based on aesthetics or function.0 -
andyp wrote:
He was also the first person to win the Tour using Shimano components. Which would suggest, by Dennis' logic, that Campag was better?aarw wrote:dennisn wrote:I don't really care but thought I would pose this question. How in the world could any man win seven TDF's using just plain junk, "Dura-Ace", 9 speed crap garbage when, clearly,
Campy record 10 speed is the vastly superior component group? Oh, of course, he was on drugs and it's a known fact that no Campy rider ever would disgrace the brand that
way. Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Dennis Noward
Because he was paid to?
Both make very good groupsets. Pick the one you prefer, be it based on aesthetics or function.
precisely ... yawn ... notice how the people who have both don't espouse the tedious groupset fundamentalism
I'd be interested to give Red a go.0 -
I'd be interested to give Red a go.
It's very expensive...
Anyone tried any of the SRAM stuff as well as shimano & campag and prepared to say how it compares, i.e. positive/clunky or smooth, how the levers feel, what this double tap thing is like in practice?0 -
neeb wrote:I'd be interested to give Red a go.
It's very expensive...
Anyone tried any of the SRAM stuff as well as shimano & campag and prepared to say how it compares, i.e. positive/clunky or smooth, how the levers feel, what this double tap thing is like in practice?
But about 1/2 the price and less than record in the US (which is about what it should be IMO ... being a new entrant and unproven) ...
... frame and wheels etc. in box over to new york ... ride in central park ... you fill in the rest ...0 -
'no-one ever got laid for using Shimano'
Maybe, but why is it that those who seem to like Campag and say Shimano is rubbish all come over as foaming-at-the-mouth crazy...?0 -
I use both DA and Record, and like both. I prefer Record hubs because you can inject grease in the middle of the hubshell, although the DA freehub allows less dishing. Record brakes (pre skeleton) are better. Ergos are neater but DA feel better (more ergonomic) and the shifting is more intuitive (for me).
For me, a bottom bracket MUST be readily serviceable and this must be possible in the home workshop - ideally BBs should be replaceable at reasonable cost. This does not appear to be the case with Record UT, which strikes it off the list, particularly in view of the concerns about bearing sealing raise don this forum a little while ago. I'd say that the assertion mentioned above - that Campag is aiming at the ornamental market - holds true.0 -
I prefer the "button" to shift to smaller sprockets or chainrings. I don't like the idea of two levers moving in the same direction to do the opposite action.
Hence I've got Shimano 2200/Sora on my commuting bike, and Campag on my decent bike. Only problem with Sora is the inability to use the button from the drops, but I don't really find it a problem on my commute.
So I get the best of both worlds, my commute bike suffers quite high wear and tear and so parts need changing quite often, lucky 8 speed casettes, chains and sora deraillers are really cheap (can get each for <£10).
I doubt my decent bike will see as much wear and tear, and campag stuff generally has a longer life span, so I probably won't need to replace much during the lifetime of the bike and I decide to build a new bike with a new groupset.0 -
I've never got laid for anything remotely cycling-related, to my knowledge!andy_wrx wrote:'no-one ever got laid for using Shimano'
Maybe, but why is it that those who seem to like Campag and say Shimano is rubbish all come over as foaming-at-the-mouth crazy...?
I spec'd Campag on my new bike cos I liked it better, but I agree the "Holy War" is a bit childish. I compared it in another thread to the Mac vs PC arguments you get in other forums...
"You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into in the first place"Even if the voices aren't real, they have some very good ideas.0 -
Does anyone with Campag UT experience know just what is involved in replacing the bearings?0
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I've not done it myself, but seen it explained. As I said above it's not rocket science - you simpliy use a normal puller to pull the old bearings off, and then an appropriate sized spacer to push a new one on again (using a percussive installation tool
) Pretty much the same method as replacing cartridge bearings on most other things (though normally you don't need the puller, as you can remove the old ones with the percussive tool). The only reason Shimano is any easier is because it's also more wasteful - you bin the perfectly good cup along with the knackered bearing. 0 -
andy_wrx wrote:'no-one ever got laid for using Shimano'
Maybe, but why is it that those who seem to like Campag and say Shimano is rubbish all come over as foaming-at-the-mouth crazy...?
Ya got that right. Campy fans only seem to know how to say "Shimano is junk" or some
variation. Strikes me as odd. Why the "hatred"? If that's what it is? Even among my friends
it's the same story. It's as if they are saying "I have Campy and you don't". Lot of
vanity and bragging to other people who could care less, yet they don't seem to know
this. They just go on and on and the only impression I am let with is "who cares".
How was that for a rant?????
Dennis Noward0 -
Thanks, aracer. As long as I can use percussive tools, I am in familiar territory. Maybe Campag UT will get back on the list. Now, about frames............. 0
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(replying to Dennis)
That's because if they're Campy fans it immediately implies they're living on the wrong side of the big pond :twisted: Meanwhile nobody would dare to show-off about having DA as they'd simply be laughed at. I think it's partly down to the fact that anybody can walk into a bike shop and buy a Shimano equipped bike, whilst to own a Campag bike implies you're a serious cyclist and have actually made an effort to get the bike you have - I guess that's also part of the reason I've always wanted Campag (though I have nothing at all against Shimano or those who own Shimano bikes, which does after all include me).
I suppose the other thing I like about Campagnolo is that it provides an instant means of telling whether somebody's from the right country or not when they abbreviate it in their posts 0 -
In thse times of economic uncertainties, one thing which is certain is the balance of power is shifting East, at an alarming rate. Campag. is made in Italy, Shimano Japan and Taiwan, and SRAM Taiwan. If we're going to get tribal, let's do it over something in our own back yard (Dennis, you're out of this one, sorry).0
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pliptrot wrote:In thse times of economic uncertainties, one thing which is certain is the balance of power is shifting East, at an alarming rate. Campag. is made in Italy, Shimano Japan and Taiwan, and SRAM Taiwan. If we're going to get tribal, let's do it over something in our own back yard (Dennis, you're out of this one, sorry).
LOL ... does that mean you think it's worth getting tribal in support of Campag????
Not sure Japan and Taiwan are really part of the power shifting east ... but I do wonder where those chinese framebuilders got their know-how from ...0 -
I copied this from an eBay item description
I won't give a link, because I expect he was just doing it in order to generate some controversy and hence free publicity, but it was a shop selling some 105 STI levers
The guy says...Yes, Shimano is DEFINATELY better than Camapagnolo - and that's a fact, Jack. There are only three types of people who ride Campagnolo nowadays: 1. Foppish and snobby retro-romantics. 2. Pros who have no choice because it's their job to ride what they're given. 3. Very old people who remember back to the seventies and early eighties when Campagnolo Super Record actually was better than all of its rivals. Today Shimano makes the Italian alternative look like junk. Rusty and unreliable Alfa Romeo or finely engineered Honda? Style or substance? Passion or performance? You decide!
[sits back and waits...] :twisted:0 -
What for? Us to criticise his poor spelling?andy_wrx wrote:I copied this from an eBay item description
I won't give a link, because I expect he was just doing it in order to generate some controversy and hence free publicity, but it was a shop selling some 105 STI levers
The guy says...Yes, Shimano is DEFINATELY better than Camapagnolo - and that's a fact, Jack. There are only three types of people who ride Campagnolo nowadays: 1. Foppish and snobby retro-romantics. 2. Pros who have no choice because it's their job to ride what they're given. 3. Very old people who remember back to the seventies and early eighties when Campagnolo Super Record actually was better than all of its rivals. Today Shimano makes the Italian alternative look like junk. Rusty and unreliable Alfa Romeo or finely engineered Honda? Style or substance? Passion or performance? You decide!
[sits back and waits...] :twisted:
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wildmoustache wrote:pliptrot wrote:In thse times of economic uncertainties, one thing which is certain is the balance of power is shifting East, at an alarming rate. Campag. is made in Italy, Shimano Japan and Taiwan, and SRAM Taiwan. If we're going to get tribal, let's do it over something in our own back yard (Dennis, you're out of this one, sorry).
LOL ... does that mean you think it's worth getting tribal in support of Campag????
Not sure Japan and Taiwan are really part of the power shifting east ... but I do wonder where those chinese framebuilders got their know-how from ...
In a way I'm not sure that there is really much in the way of frame development
actually going on out there. Materials sure, but frame design, not really. All frames
have been pretty much alike now for many, many, years. Two triangles put together
with a fork to hold the front wheel. Nothing new in that. Just about everyone and everybody is making frames these days. And now with the UCI stating what a bicycle
must look like we are probably not going to see anything "new" in frames anytime soon.
Dennis Noward0 -
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dennisn wrote:wildmoustache wrote:pliptrot wrote:In thse times of economic uncertainties, one thing which is certain is the balance of power is shifting East, at an alarming rate. Campag. is made in Italy, Shimano Japan and Taiwan, and SRAM Taiwan. If we're going to get tribal, let's do it over something in our own back yard (Dennis, you're out of this one, sorry).
LOL ... does that mean you think it's worth getting tribal in support of Campag????
Not sure Japan and Taiwan are really part of the power shifting east ... but I do wonder where those chinese framebuilders got their know-how from ...
In a way I'm not sure that there is really much in the way of frame development
actually going on out there. Materials sure, but frame design, not really. All frames
have been pretty much alike now for many, many, years. Two triangles put together
with a fork to hold the front wheel. Nothing new in that. Just about everyone and everybody is making frames these days. And now with the UCI stating what a bicycle
must look like we are probably not going to see anything "new" in frames anytime soon.
Dennis Noward
In one sense you're right ... but remember carbon frames are relatively recent and are in huge demand so the fact they look like a traditional bicycle does not mean they are on the bottom line of a manufactuer's balance sheet!0 -
Can't believe you're quibbling the guy's spelling, rather than his other shortcomings! I've never noticed any more rust on campag gear than shimano, and I've taken both through mud and sh1t for years, never really had a problem with either. Some corners of this debate can get pretty moronic.
I notice the very top end campag chainsets are more expensive than shimano, can't say whether they're better or not but it used to be the case that the top end of both ranges were about even in price. At like for like price I still think there's not much to choose between the two other than personal preference about how they function, e.g. whether you like the fact that the brake lever swivels as a gear lever or has a separate one underneath.
Do you say skons or skoans? (since you're quibbling spelling! )
Neether or nyether?0 -
Neither. :PRaph wrote:Do you say skons or skoans?
Neether or nyether?Even if the voices aren't real, they have some very good ideas.0 -
Not noticed the new carbon DA then?Raph wrote:I notice the very top end campag chainsets are more expensive than shimano,
http://wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx? ... 20Chainset0 -
aracer wrote:
Not noticed the new carbon DA then?Raph wrote:I notice the very top end campag chainsets are more expensive than shimano,
http://wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx? ... 20Chainset
Whoa, if my coversion table is correct. Holy crap. They will get it though. Plenty of
riders out there with deep pockets who always get the latest new thing. Think I'll
wait until my old 9 speed stuff literally falls apart before make the big switch. Then
again if I win the lottery, well, just you wait and see.
Dennis Noward0 -
I have Sram Force on "best" bike and 105 on old commuter bike. Not directly comparable price wise, but the SRAM has hidden cables, shifts very well, is very light and (i think) looks pretty good/well made.
Never tried campy....0 -
"Not noticed the new carbon DA then? "
£$%^&*()^%£$%^&*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
No - I hadn't!0 -
Just got my breath back....
It's going to have to be pretty fr1gging nice...0
