new Procycling blog: Allan Davis: No way out?

Jeff Jones

http://www.bikeradar.com/blogs/article/ ... -out-14045

Martin Hardie takes a different angle than most on the 'suspected doping' issue.

vermooten

So there won't be a third series of Jonathan Creek then.

scwxx77

Picture of Allan Davis looks a lot like Alberto Contador.

andyp

scwxx77 wrote:

Picture of Allan Davis looks a lot like Alberto Contador.

That's because it is Alberto Contador. This is Allan Davis;

Jeff Jones

Good point

Kléber

Davis signed up with Manolo Saiz and stayed with him for several years.

Maybe he is totally clean but he's silent too. Can he not help to shed any light on the matter?

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Davis signed up with Manolo Saiz and stayed with him for several years.

Maybe he is totally clean but he's silent too. Can he not help to shed any light on the matter?

Would you talk, if you knew and wanted to continue working in cycling?

Anyone who answers "yes" is clearly an idiot.

That is the unfortunate reality.

secretsqirrel

Nobody will talk unless there is a full amnesty on the table. There won't be an amnesty because it's too risky due to accusations (from outside of the sport) of being soft on cheats, potential loss of sponsorship, and the threat to the jumped-up egos who are in charge. Add to that the indignation of the those who have served their time.

This is why doping will be a long painful process to resolve, and guys like Davis and Sinkewitz will keep paying the price.

Noodley

Not sure if this has been posted somewhere in a thread before as I have been an infrequent visitor of late, but I thought the feature on ex-rider in the most recent Procycling mag was one of the best reads for a long time. More of the same would be good.

iainf72

SecretSqirrel wrote:

Nobody will talk unless there is a full amnesty on the table. There won't be an amnesty because it's too risky due to accusations

Amnesty from what? From sanctions? That's got to be largely irrelevant. The problem is how the peloton treats people who talk not whether they'll be punished by the authorities.

And lets say AD knew nothing - What then? Should he make something up because no one will believe he knew nothing?

Kléber

My point wasn't so much that he has to blurt out all he knows, to squeal. More that he was happy to be on the team for a long time. He must have known what was going on, being associated with people who have big reputations like Saiz runs a risk.

Maybe that's just part of the risk for a pro but put another way: if he'd chosen to ride for Bouygues Telecom, he might still be riding today without a single question mark over him.

drenkrom

Imagine for two seconds there are only 20 companies on the face of the Earth that can employ you. Ever. Your typical employment contract lasts two years. Your career lasts at least 10. You absolutely need 5 employers to sustain your career, which means you have to be in the good graces of at least 10-12 of them. In that context, when one of those 20 employers offers you a job, are you really going to scrutinize every last rumor ever propagated about them? If you turn up a slight doubt, will you kiss your career goodbye on the base of these suspicions? Anyone who even considers answering "yes" must really suck at role-playing games. And I haven't even started talking about the brownie points you need to rack up to find a good post-racing job.

Lately, many cycling fans have drawn up standards the riders should adhere to that are so completely out of touch with reality it becomes downright funny. Either that, or the fans become so systematically suspicious, it leads to situations like that of Allan Davis. Kléber, you never even consider the possibility Davis didn't know what was going on. Do you really think riders talk about this stuff in the bus and the hotel, share dosage tips and doctor contacts? If that's ever going to happen it will be between very close friends in a very intimate setting. It was established pretty clearly with Christophe Bassons that, if you run a team doping scheme, you do NOT want any clean riders to know about it. And if the Fuentes setup was one thing, it was professional.

Kléber

Sure, and I feel sorry for Davis, Drenkrom.

My very point is that many pro cyclists are tainted by rumour and innuendo, that associating with the dodgiest people in the sport is likely to tarnish your own image. Davis's position today is a result of this system, that there are many other riders out there and so why risk taking on a protege of Saiz when you can pick someone else?

I don't know what you think, but if I had to rank Saiz somewhere between a saint and a sinner when it comes to adherence of the anti-doping rules, I'd rank him somewhat closer towards the sinner category. So I disagree when it comes down to "scrutinize every last rumor", as we're not talking about vague rumours on Saiz. Many riders under him have tested positive. It was his very arrest that caused Puerto and go back a few years and Alex Zulle explained how the ONCE team was run.

TheHog

In document 23 of the puerto files it says he used EPO and IGF-1. Sounds fair that he isn't riding for a PT team.

Noodley

TheHog wrote:

In document 23 of the puerto files it says he used EPO and IGF-1. Sounds fair that he isn't riding for a PT team.

Did you read the OP? "No case to answer" etc.

TheHog

Noodley wrote:

TheHog wrote:

In document 23 of the puerto files it says he used EPO and IGF-1. Sounds fair that he isn't riding for a PT team.

Did you read the OP? "No case to answer" etc.

Fact is he had one of those doping calendars like most of the other Liberty riders and it had EPO and IGF-1 on it, so no matter what the australians say he is obviously involved in puerto. Just because he speaks english dosn't mean he is clean or should be treated different than the spanish puerto riders that have also been relegated to small teams.

secretsqirrel

iainf72 wrote:

SecretSqirrel wrote:

Nobody will talk unless there is a full amnesty on the table. There won't be an amnesty because it's too risky due to accusations

Amnesty from what? From sanctions? That's got to be largely irrelevant. The problem is how the peloton treats people who talk not whether they'll be punished by the authorities

Iainf72
I have to bow to you superior knowledge there. I would be very interested if you have more to say on the subject.

Peleton culture, a subject I know nothing about, due to the nature of the Omerta thing, that’s interesting! I believe this is what you were alluding to?
In my naivety, I think of the peleton as a bunch of blokes on bikes, who primarily look after themselves and their own, form allegiances with some and declare war on others. And probably a fair bit of bullying goes on. Not sure I understand the peleton as a cohesive unit that that can turn on someone when feeling threatened and run them off the road or something……..how awesome is that? I think the bigger threat is from team management and sponsors rather than the peleton surely?

timoid.

SecretSqirrel wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

SecretSqirrel wrote:

Nobody will talk unless there is a full amnesty on the table. There won't be an amnesty because it's too risky due to accusations

Amnesty from what? From sanctions? That's got to be largely irrelevant. The problem is how the peloton treats people who talk not whether they'll be punished by the authorities

Iainf72
I have to bow to you superior knowledge there. I would be very interested if you have more to say on the subject.

Peleton culture, a subject I know nothing about, due to the nature of the Omerta thing, that’s interesting! I believe this is what you were alluding to?
In my naivety, I think of the peleton as a bunch of blokes on bikes, who primarily look after themselves and their own, form allegiances with some and declare war on others. And probably a fair bit of bullying goes on. Not sure I understand the peleton as a cohesive unit that that can turn on someone when feeling threatened and run them off the road or something……..how awesome is that? I think the bigger threat is from team management and sponsors rather than the peleton surely?

The peloton can stop you getting into a good position, can chase you down if you breakaway or leave you out to hang on your own (ala Bradley Wiggins). Also if you are in difficulty the team won't help, if you crash the peloton won't slow, you will be blocked in a sprint or marked out of a race. It will even help your rival by working against you for him. In short, it can ensure you never win again. And a rider that doesn't win and is unpopular with his peers won't be getting a pay rise or a new contract. Then there is the intimidation and bullying on and off the bike.

Only a very brave man or a fool crosses the peloton.

secretsqirrel

Timoid. wrote:

The peloton can stop you getting into a good position, can chase you down if you breakaway or leave you out to hang on your own (ala Bradley Wiggins). Also if you are in difficulty the team won't help, if you crash the peloton won't slow, you will be blocked in a sprint or marked out of a race. It will even help your rival by working against you for him. In short, it can ensure you never win again. And a rider that doesn't win and is unpopular with his peers won't be getting a pay rise or a new contract. Then there is the intimidation and bullying on and off the bike.

Only a very brave man or a fool crosses the peloton.

Cheers Timoid

Are there any recent examples of the peloton machine turning against an individual (team incuded), and for what reason?
I believe Hinault was probably quite able to co-ordinate such a movement, but I'm not sure that even LA could unite the whole peloton.

afx237vi

There have been plenty of examples in the last 10 years, but one of the most famous (and damning) took place in the 2003 Tour between Lance Armstrong and the small-time Italian pro Filippo Simeoni.

There was a long history between the two, but the nub of the issue basically revolved around the fact the Simeoni appeared in an Italian court and testified against Dr Ferrari, saying that Ferrari had given him [Simeoni] EPO and instructed him how to use it without being detected. Ferrari, at the time, was Armstrong's coach.

Anyway, it was right at the end of the Tour de France, one or two flat stages to go, and Armstrong had already sewn up the victory. As you know, the end of the Tour always provides chances for the journeymen pros to get in a breakaway, and Simeoni saw his chance and joined a breakaway of other riders.

They had a few minutes lead, but Armstrong wasn't about to let Simeoni get a bit of glory, so bridged up to the breakaway - absolutely unheard of for the yellow jersey - and demanded that Simeoni go with him back to the peloton. The other riders in the break knew that they would stand no chance to get away if the yellow jersey was there, so told Simeoni to get lost, and both he and Armstrong went back to the pack.

Intimidation and bullying of a rider who spoke out against doping, or just Armstrong being a childish git? You decide.

There are other examples as well, though. Armstrong telling Christophe Bassons to "just go home" after the Festina affair. Matt Rendell's Pantani book mentions one occasion when Michele Bartoli was made to cry at the back of the bunch by the bullying that took place after he said the testers could come to test him any time they liked.

And just a few months ago, Bettini's veiled threat to Sinkewitz just before the Wrolds..

andyp

afx237vi wrote:

There are other examples as well, though. Armstrong telling Christophe Bassons to "just go home" after the Festina affair. Matt Rendell's Pantani book mentions one occasion when Michele Bartoli was made to cry at the back of the bunch by the bullying that took place after he said the testers could come to test him any time they liked.

I think you mean Andrea Tafi rather than Bartoli, no?

afx237vi

andyp wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

There are other examples as well, though. Armstrong telling Christophe Bassons to "just go home" after the Festina affair. Matt Rendell's Pantani book mentions one occasion when Michele Bartoli was made to cry at the back of the bunch by the bullying that took place after he said the testers could come to test him any time they liked.

I think you mean Andrea Tafi rather than Bartoli, no?

Yes, my mistake, it was Tafi.

timoid.

Also Bradley Wiggins was left out in front alone for almost an entire stage of the Tour last year. He couldn't get anyone to go with him and perhaps make the break stick.

Simeoni was spat on by some rider's during the 04 Tour.

I would imagine a lot of it goes unnoticed to the public watching at home.

secretsqirrel

Thanks Timoid, afx237vi, and andyp. I obviously have much to learn!

Any ideas what crime Wiggo had done to offend the 'gentlemans's club'? At the time watching the race I would have assumed that they let him go because he wasn't a threat, and nobody else could be bothered to go with him. But TV commentators generally drivel on about the local wines & cuisine, so not much help there!

Also looking at the news from TDU is AD now taking a 'If you can't join them, beat them approach?'.

He seems think think it will help his cause, and he ought to be right, no?