Self Defence?

redddraggon

On my way into work this morning, I've had a few more near misses, and I'm starting to feel genuinely in danger.

If someone behaved threateningly to you with a weapon (e.g. a knife), if you don't know their intentions you've still got a right to defend yourself, correct?

The next time someone cuts me up at a junction and nearly go over the handlebars through braking, fearing for my safety I drag the driver out of the car and pummel them. In the end that's not using excessive force as "car >>>> fist".

Do you reckon I could get a lawyer to successfully defend me? It's not as though the Government does much to ensure our safety is it?

redddraggon

Another thought - if you could only remove their weapon from them for self defence - how would snatching their car keys from them and throwing them into a canal or river be seen?

BentMikey

I think the only time it might be acceptable to take someone's keys is when they've threatened your life verbally or gone for you more than once with their car, and then only if temporary. They must be able to get them back I believe, if only after you've had time to make your escape.

Otherwise chill out mate. Get yourself a video camera and use it to bring consequences to any company drivers that give you grief. For the rest of it, take a breath and increase the size of your own safety zone so that people don't get to come so close. Most of the change probably needs to be in your own mental approach.

redddraggon

BentMikey wrote:

Most of the change probably needs to be in your own mental approach.

I'm Paranoid (not nervous though) when I'm the road - which is probably a good thing, as I avoid most the worse things. When I need to be I'm in the primary position - but that's part of the problem.

mick_cornick

I had one really awful incident where I did consider taking the keys from a car. However it is easier said than done when you have an angry and dangerous motorist to deal with.
Also have you considered that when or if you drag someone out of their car they could beat you up! :?:

Clever Pun

if you pull someone out of a car and assault them you'll get charged I suspect, even if they knock you off your bike and cause of that you'd probably lose any potential compo.

Mayhemwmb

I think any Police officer who attends an incident where a driver has been dragged out of his car and assaulted by another road user will always take the side of the driver. That is unless there is independant evidence to show that the driver is in the wrong, If you have a close call with a motorist they will inevitibly say it was a minor misjudgement on their part, however your mens rea when you 'drag' someone out of their car ups the anti considerably. You put yourself in a bit of a difficult position. The police will argue that in such a position you should record the drivers vrm and report the incident to the local police.

secretsam

I know your rage

It's just not worth it, they could jump back in their car and flatten you

At the end of the day, they're probably decent people once they're out of their car...just a poorly-trained, incompetent fool in it

A little pent up anger is better than a criminal record. Try shouting. Or see my thread "Ashamed of Myself"

redddraggon

I've never actually been in a fight, so I'd like to keep that record up. I've even played rugby for years without getting in a fight, so I can withhold my anger.

It just seems to me that drivers can kill with a car but twatting an inconsiderate driver is a more serious offense.

It seems that drivers can largely get away with what they want.

DavidTQ

redddraggon wrote:

I've never actually been in a fight, so I'd like to keep that record up. I've even played rugby for years without getting in a fight, so I can withhold my anger.

It just seems to me that drivers can kill with a car but twatting an inconsiderate driver is a more serious offense.

It seems that drivers can largely get away with what they want.

Shockingly you would probably get a stiffer sentence from the court for hitting the ignorant driver than he would for killing you as long as he used his car to do it!

mattstone2000

As someone with a good knowledge of criminal law (I teach it) I should be able to clarify the situation.

You are only entitled to use self-defence when there is an imminent threat against you. If this is the case, you are allowed to use reasonable force as is necessary in preventing the assailant from inflicting harm.

The problem in your situation is that by the time you've braked and pulled alongside the car, ready for some fisticuffs, there is no longer any imminent threat posed by the driver, and so you aren't entitled to do anything.

cupofteacp

I agree with matt, however

I'm not suggesting anyone does this,

But if you got into an argument, on purpose and wound the guy up knowing he’s going to have a go, once he’s thrown the first punch / kick you’re then entitled to use reasonable force to defend yourself. Don’t forget your not a police office so your not trained in using restraining techniques, you’re just going to have to use enough force to stop him . . . . hurting you or others

Matteeboy

Having got a brown belt in karate and then moved onto kickboxing (best was 4th in UK, middleweight), I'm pretty confident and find that most people "know" this somehow (I'm not very big so not sure how) and back off immediately.

I get a nasty driver incident almost daily but usually get an apology should I give the dumb driver the bird and they then do the "angry stopping to confront me" bit.

It's sometimes actually quite funny :twisted:

Having said that, if it ever got nasty, we were well trained in leaving assailants disabled but unmarked as well as disarming almost any weapon - well worth learning as it makes you feel a lot safer (only sad cretins think it's makes them "well 'ard - it just makes you more aware of when to back off and run away!).

DavidTQ

Matteeboy wrote:

Having got a brown belt in karate and then moved onto kickboxing (best was 4th in UK, middleweight), I'm pretty confident and find that most people "know" this somehow (I'm not very big so not sure how) and back off immediately.

I get a nasty driver incident almost daily but usually get an apology should I give the dumb driver the bird and they then do the "angry stopping to confront me" bit.

It's sometimes actually quite funny :twisted:

Having said that, if it ever got nasty, we were well trained in leaving assailants disabled but unmarked as well as disarming almost any weapon - well worth learning as it makes you feel a lot safer (only sad cretins think it's makes them "well 'ard - it just makes you more aware of when to back off and run away!).

The funny thing is I think its all about confidance. I have a probably irrational confidance that unless I was very unfortunate and met someone with a great deal of talent and training that I could come out without injury in any likely confrontation.

Im only 5'8" but I dont find a 6' tall rugby player intimidating. Ive never done much competition type stuff, but I did grow up on a rough council estate, ive done a little ju jitsu, a little karate, and a bit of boxing, But I think for me my confidance comes from a rough and ready knowledge of anatomy and the ability to think and react very fast.

Its probably a very irrational confidence but its there and I believe it shows. I havent been in a fight since I was about 18 last one was 10 on one... over a decade ago. I got into loads of fights as a kid living on a rough council estate and being a tiny kid who wouldnt back down made me something of a target.

In none of those situations was I "decking" everyone it was a case of using my head. Ive never "started" a fight, Ive never looked for an excuse for violence, but Ive also never given into threat or intimidation. I believe I am physically far stronger than I was last time I was in a fight, whether its true or not doesnt matter for confidence.

I dont want it to ever get to blows, but I have a probably misplaced confidance that I could handle whatever happened and that in itself helps make people back down I guess. Somehow it all gets wrapped up into the voice, if I get angry and shout Ive got a deep and booming authoritave voice.

I guess its like a dog barking if a dog barks loud and deep and menacingly then you're likely to give them a wide berth despite the fact that in reality a silent dog could be far more dangerous and get you when you try to pet it... I guess my bark says "Im dangerous" because I believe it even without recent evidence to back that view up.

jel

The potentially serious consequences of everyday actions, although real, are not really thought through by most people otherwise we'd never leave the house or get into a car. Many of us have gone off for a weekend of extremeness be it biking, surfing, skydiving etc for a dose of adrenalin and managed risk only to realise that the most dangerous thing you've done all weekend is driving there. Cyclists' vulnerability means we see that risk as it really is and what seems overreaction to a bystander might be a justified response to a life threatening incident. Dragging someone out of a car is a bit much for all but the most rabid anti-cager. Once the threat has passed so does your right to defend yourself so you'd get done. Also the fighting thing is a skill and you'might hurt yourself before being hurt in return, so don't bother.

Matteeboy

David - I think anyone martial arts trained that's never been in a streetfight is actually likely to be useless in a "real" situation.
I've had plenty - similarish situation to you but more "the posh kid from a private school going to a comp" - unfortunately quite a few people attempted to bully me but stopped once they were all flattened. Sad but true but I fought my way to popularity in many ways. :?

There have also been numerous other incidents,but like you, none were started by me.

Anyway, back to the point of the post - it's really not worth it in 99% of situations. Drivers are just too often stupid, or think they are invincible in their cars. Which is why I did IAM driver training as well as an intensive Police driving course - to try and be a safer driver. I find many of the rules actually help for safer cycling.

belgiangoth

redddraggon wrote:

Do you reckon I could get a lawyer to successfully defend me?

No, I wish you could, but no.