Land Access - Legal questions.

Coppicer

Hi All,

A quick introduction. I am not a serious cyclist, I have a Claud Butler aluminium MTB which doesn't get used often. I confess, I have joined this forum to ask a couple of questions rather than participate fully, I hope you'll bear with me.

I own a small piece of land, sub 20 acres, which is commercial coppiced woodland. There are no defined footpaths in the woods, but several trails which wind in and out and up and down, often quite muddy. I'm told that it's a nice woodland for cycling, but it is often abused, visitors to two adjacent public areas use it as a toilet, it is also close to a known homosexual meeting place and they leave various used "equipment" around, which my dog always seems to find and eat.

The abuse has prompted me to fence the woods off, I'm just fed up with my dog bringing me "presents" and eating faeces and tissue left behind.

Today, whilst building a hedge along a boundary, I met a keen cyclist with his family. He had come in via an entrance not yet closed and was now fenced in. I had a long chat with the man, he was a nice bloke and explained that there are fewer and fewer places to ride now. I confess I felt a bit sorry for him, obviously a man with his family isn't going to abuse the land. He asked if I had tried to work with cycling clubs regarding access to the land. My first reaction was "have cycling clubs asked me whether they can ride across my land ?", they haven't .

The thing is, I wouldn't object to responsible riders using the trails when they're not too wet (today, for example, the trails got really chewed up and it's self perpetuating, a rut in the middle of the path holds rainwater which makes the rest of the path turn to mud) , so I was wondering if cycling clubs have agreements with land owners about access.

The bottom line is this:

If I contact a local cycling club and give them a key to the gates will they have insurance to indemnify me against them injuring themselves whilst on my land and will they stay off the trails when they're too wet ? I'm confident that members of a club will not abuse the land, but the insurance aspect worries me. I don't want to charge for access, but I don't want to get sued if a tree falls down and someone rides into it. I'm a shooter, so I have £2m indemnity insurance, do cycling club members have something similar ?

If someone can give me an example of a similar agreement or a link to a Cycling spokesman then maybe I can give a local club a key and let them enjoy the land.

Your suggestions are welcomed.

Steve.

Mytchett Mike

Hi

I think if the cycle group is a club they have to have insurance. We do prefer not to be shot at though

You may find that if they were allowed to use the area and - with your guidance amd agreement - to build trails that you would get some free woodland maintenance.

Whilst we don't mind mud we do like to be able to use trails all year round.

If you know the owners of the adjoining woodland it may be worth trying to involve them too.

Some of us also ride at night and you may also find a group of riders with very bright lights put the less salubrious visitors off?

You don't give your location (wise) but I would look in the rides / routes section and also on the bikemagic rides forum to see if there are any local.

Hope it helps and good luck

Mike

Coppicer

My land is near Cobham in Kent. What I'm looking for is a contact in the local club who can assure me that they'll respect the trail conditions and can show me insurance that will indemnify me against them injuring themselves. The easy route for me is to just fence off the woods and allow no access, but it seems a shame if people can enjoy it responsibly. The adjoining woodland is Woodland Trust and does not allow cyclists, the open land nextdoor is Community Open Space but is apparently boring.

I have no problem with new trails being formed as long as I am part of the process.

dhxcme

I wouldn't give keys out. If they get into the wrong hands, either by accident or on porpose you will be in a bad way. I would seal it up place private property signs out and just give bike clubs a contact saying they can come on your land provided they look after it and that they behave in a respectful manor.

Coppicer

dhxcme wrote:

I wouldn't give keys out. If they get into the wrong hands, either by accident or on porpose you will be in a bad way. I would seal it up place private property signs out and just give bike clubs a contact saying they can come on your land provided they look after it and that they behave in a respectful manor.

Two problems with that, first, I leave myself open to being sued by some muppet "no win no fee" merchant who rides into a tree, second, if the club can get in anyone can get in which means the trails will get chewed up again by people riding after a rainstorm.

Does anyone have a disclaimer that allows a landowner to allow a club to ride with no legal comebacks ?

dhxcme

other than a contract an cycle only access gate i'd say there isn't a wat to keep people out.

Coppicer

dhxcme wrote:

other than a contract an cycle only access gate i'd say there isn't a wat to keep people out.

You're missing the point. I can keep people out easily by putting a big fence up, what I'm trying to do is allow responsible cyclists to use my land without opening myself to lawsuits from uninsured riders who crash into trees.

If I can't find a way to do this I'll fence everybody out.

Symchicken

It sounds to me like you need to speak to a solicitor about this. Of course this means you'd have to pay for it, most likely.

From what I remember from my contract law, if you had an agreement with a local club, that could constitute a contract depending on the terms (it wouldn't have to be all official bits of paper either so long as it was recorded) and exemption clauses for liability are acceptable *to an extent*. I'm sure there are more elegant solutions to your problem, but it sounds like its the legal side you're worried about most, and in those circumstances it seems proper legal advice is the best way to go.

Coppicer

Symchicken wrote:

It sounds to me like you need to speak to a solicitor about this. Of course this means you'd have to pay for it, most likely.

From what I remember from my contract law, if you had an agreement with a local club, that could constitute a contract depending on the terms (it wouldn't have to be all official bits of paper either so long as it was recorded) and exemption clauses for liability are acceptable *to an extent*. I'm sure there are more elegant solutions to your problem, but it sounds like its the legal side you're worried about most, and in those circumstances it seems proper legal advice is the best way to go.

Thankyou Mr Chicken,

The current "sue me" climate worries me. I can't afford to employ solicitors to decide who to allow on my land.

As from now trespassers are banned from my land, the South side of Ashenbank Wood in Cobham, Kent.

If members of a local cycling club would like to contact me with details of their own insurance and policies regarding maintenance of woodland tracks I am happy to listen.

I will be happy to allow responsible riders to ride the existing, and create new, tracks in the woodland.

If this is an insignificant patch, let me know, and I'll fence it off pronto, the man I met this afternoon seemed to like it.

NEILHEAD

Hi again i live near your land and am very keen to meet with you rehgarding access i have pm d you with details please contact me direct neilhead@msn.com if you cant et in touch via messages

teacherman

Can't imagine a member of a MTB'ing club would sue following an accident. Most of us are sensible enought to know that going fast can quickly go wrong and that if it does its our fault.

I know there are permissive bridleways but have no idea how you would get that status.

Coppicer

teacherman wrote:

Can't imagine a member of a MTB'ing club would sue following an accident. Most of us are sensible enought to know that going fast can quickly go wrong and that if it does its our fault.

I know there are permissive bridleways but have no idea how you would get that status.

I don't have any PM from you, mind you this forum is so confusing I probably wouldn't know anyway.

If you can speak for local cyclists PM me and hopefully we can work out a way for your members to use my land in good conditions and we'll all be happy.

nicklouse

to take your main point, If the cyclists are members of the CTC http://www.ctc.org.uk/ they can have insurance, BUT you need to talk to your pet lawyer as you will be responsible for anyone on your land.

Coppicer

nicklouse wrote:

to take your main point, If the cyclists are members of the CTC http://www.ctc.org.uk/ they can have insurance, BUT you need to talk to your pet lawyer as you will be responsible for anyone on your land.

This is my point, why do I need to pay a lawyer to let you ride on my land ?

I hate this sue-me no-win-no-fee blame culture crap. No wonder you've got nowhere to ride, the blood-suckers have made it imposible.

nicklouse

Coppicer wrote:

nicklouse wrote:

to take your main point, If the cyclists are members of the CTC http://www.ctc.org.uk/ they can have insurance, BUT you need to talk to your pet lawyer as you will be responsible for anyone on your land.

This is my point, why do I need to pay a lawyer to let you ride on my land ?

I hate this sue-me no-win-no-fee blame culture crap. No wonder you've got nowhere to ride, the blood-suckers have made it imposible.

But you should already have some insurance to cover you for any trespassers? what you will have to work out is the cover etc that the riders that you allow onto your land need. But at the same time you need to consider the uninsured that still get onto the land.

It is a minefield and you can see why so many places have decided to keep people of the land that they are responsible for.

Contact the CTC and talk to them as they have helped things happen before.

Coppicer

I do have insurance that covers me against trespassers, but actually allowing people to use the land is a whole different ballgame. It's a catch 22 situation, if I look the other way I'm covered but the paths get turned to mush by every Tom Dick and Harry with a bike or a horse and people continue to use the land as a toilet, if I fence it off but give someone a key then I need separate insurance. Hence my question about whether clubs have a standard disclaimer for me and their own insurance. I've had some advice here to see a solicitor, you can understand that I'm reluctant to pay their fees and pay for extra insurance in order to let people I don't even know ride over my land.

redddraggon

Coppicer wrote:

I've had some advice here to see a solicitor, you can understand that I'm reluctant to pay their fees and pay for extra insurance in order to let people I don't even know ride over my land.

I'd suggest getting in touch with some local clubs before doing anything and suggest that if they are free to use the land if they pay all the fees - insurance etc. If they think the land is good enough for their use, you'd hope they'd chip in with the money.

Coppicer

redddraggon wrote:

Coppicer wrote:

I've had some advice here to see a solicitor, you can understand that I'm reluctant to pay their fees and pay for extra insurance in order to let people I don't even know ride over my land.

I'd suggest getting in touch with some local clubs before doing anything and suggest that if they are free to use the land if they pay all the fees - insurance etc. If they think the land is good enough for their use, you'd hope they'd chip in with the money.

Done, emailed the local Cycle Touring Club.

redddraggon

Coppicer wrote:

Done, emailed the local Cycle Touring Club.

Are there no proper MTB clubs around? I think you'd get a more hopeful response of a more off road orientated club. Though it is possible you'd get a good response from them.

(I don't mean to offend anyone, as I'm also a member of the CTC, but I always see the CTC as a bit old fashioned - people wearing woolen jerseys, on old steel tourers with full mudguards, panniers large leather saddle bag, leather handlebar bag and brooks saddle. You might get better luck with a more specific MTB club)

dave_hill

Coppicer wrote:

Done, emailed the local Cycle Touring Club.

You'd probably be better getting in contact with IMBA UK or British Cycling. IMBA would probably be the best bet, clicky here.

off-one

Im a member of an archeaological group and regularly work on private land. We all signed a waiver saying that we were aware of any risks and dangers our activities could involve,and therefore had no legal claim on the land owner.

Blacksmith04

Coppicer, Just had a look on the map and it is a nice woodland I used to ride through on my way to Shorne (although I am not sure where the limits of your woods are - Byway and footpaths in the same area). We are not the most local to you as we are based near Canterbury and as such would not use it often enough to justify having key/legal permission. I can only think of one local MTB club that has an official structure: MCC Offroad (www.mccoffroad.co.uk). Legal trails around the Medway towns are very scarce but not sure about your legal situation though.

Michael
www.kent-trails.co.uk

Coppicer

I looked at the MCCoffroad site, they're a bit further towards the coast. CTC are local, no reply yet but no rush. I was disappointed today to find a section of the hedge I put in yesterday had been ripped down overnight. Oh well .

stevie the freerider

unofficial agrement with a club you trust?
make sure they are carefull wth the key.

build a trail centre and charge accses for a 4x DH and dirt jump trails that way you ern a bit money

(the second sugestion was a joke ...but if you fancey it...)

MilitantGraham

Some small independant museums have stopped charging an admission fee and instead ask for a donation from visitors.
Apparently, you can only be sued for injury by someone who has paid to be on your property. If they are there free of charge, they have to prove "gross negligence".
I may have misunderstood that and got it wrong, but it's worth looking in to.

Coppicer

MilitantGraham wrote:

Some small independant museums have stopped charging an admission fee and instead ask for a donation from visitors.
Apparently, you can only be sued for injury by someone who has paid to be on your property. If they are there free of charge, they have to prove "gross negligence".
I may have misunderstood that and got it wrong, but it's worth looking in to.

I don't think that's correct, someone only has to be there with your permission. That's why I would need a disclaimer and for the club to have their own insurance. No answer yet from CTC anyway, maybe the email address was out of date.

breezer

I don't know the specifics of the arrangement but I belong to a club in kent that uses a wood. The wood is open to walkers but not horse riders. The bike club has public liability insurance. I dont know whats in writing but theres one area where we can do what we want with jumps etc then the rest of the wood we are allowed to put in extra paths within reason as long as they dont cross fireroads etc and if they end on them, there must be sharp turns before the end so you lose your speed.

Because of this arrangement, the walkers stay on the fireroads and the riders use their own made tracks which therefore are built/sculpted to take drainage into account. It is run by some older riders though who kinda take charge and shut off routes if they are getting really muddy etc and because of the friendly atmosphere, other riders follow these wishes and dont abuse the area at all. We have one meeting/camp area where no rubbish is left and all the walkers seem to say hello and co exist in harmony. I think we have had the wood for about 10 years so this sort of arrangement can work

Panter

First off, I think its extremely good of you to offer 8) and I fully understand where you're coming from with the sue culture thing :evil:

I've pm'd my clubs off road organiser (SFACC) with a link to this thread to see if its anything he could help with, or may be interested in.

Cheers

Chris

Coppicer

I'll keep checking back here then. No answer from Hugh at CTC, I think the email address must be out of use or maybe he's on holiday. I will be fencing the woods along the boundaries, if local responsible riders want to get in touch we can work something out.

Nothing in the above posts implies that cyclists are permitted to trespass on the land, it is private property, maintained only for commercial use and could be dangerous when forestry work is in progress.

NEILHEAD

Coppicer wrote:

I'll keep checking back here then. No answer from Hugh at CTC, I think the email address must be out of use or maybe he's on holiday. I will be fencing the woods along the boundaries, if local responsible riders want to get in touch we can work something out.

Nothing in the above posts implies that cyclists are permitted to trespass on the land, it is private property, maintained only for commercial use and could be dangerous when forestry work is in progress.

Hi, I would like very much to talk with you regarding access to your woods,I live in strood and am more than willing to sighn any waiver.Please e-mail me direct neilhead@msn.com and ill meet with you ill even shout you a beer

Ronstanson

I'd like to point out that any proper, organised cycling club you get involved with will be responsible. Cycling clubs are proper groups, and any damage they do would give the club a bad reputation and so be damaging.They won't use your trails in the wet if you were to ask them.