Anything Better Than Zipp's!!??!!??

steve23

im after some new wheels, and the Zipp 404's look awesome. they are a little more than what i would like to spend, BUT, are they really worth it?

i was looking to spend around 800quid, and need a wheel for Road Racing and Time Trialling. the 404 seems to fit the bill.

is there anything better? any thoughts?

thanks!

dennisn

define "better"

steve23

ok then.

is there a wheel that will help to increase my Time Trial and Road Race performance, by the factors of stiffness, weight, areodynamics, and cost.

steve23

say compared to the Mavic Cosmic carbone SL Premium???

Monty Dog

They're over-priced and lateral stiffness is only moderate, plus they have a long history of poor reliability. For the same money, you could buy a pair of Planet-X 50mm wheels for general race use, plus a rear disc for TT use all for £900 - or are you just buying the Zipps because you like paying for their expensive advertising?

dennisn

I think you're searching for "The Holy Grail". Put another way - pros use Zipp 404's -
pros use Mavic Cosmic's. Why? Because they are given to them by sponsors. Would they use them if they were junk and didn't preform? No way, they would rebrand
another manufacturers wheels with their sponsors name. You sound like you would like
to buy "pro" quality wheels, yet you are probably not a "pro" racer. You seem to be grasping at straws in your thinking that the different brands of "pro" level wheels vary
greatly from one to another. Generally speaking they are all top shelf. There is no one "wonder" wheel. Just take a look at the winners bikes on the pro tour and you will
see just about every major brand of wheel, frame , and component in there at one time or
another. Go with the style you like and can afford. Is there really much difference
between a "Rolls Royce" and a "Bentley" (so to speak)?

Dennis Noward

steve23

Monty Dog you mean the zipps are overpirced?

dennisn i agree with what you are saying, but IMO there is a huge performance increase between mavic aksiums, that i am using now, and a good quality wheelset.

that said, what about the mavic cosmic carbone sl premium wheels?

Monty Dog

Well, if you think paying £300 for some 'dimples' is good value, then go ahead, but that's the only discernible difference between the Zipps and the rest. I have 2 friends who have Zipps and they're frequently being returned for repairs and both admit they are a bit 'soft' laterally - you can wiggle them side-to-side - my own Ambrosios by contrast are rock solid laterally. Don't believe that 'fast' wheels will automatically make you a better rider - you need the legs to power them and that 'aero' only really kicks in at about 40kph. Pros generally don't chose their wheels - its what the sponsor provides.

grazer

I have zipp 404's. Their straight line speed is definitely faster than non-deep section wheels. I have found them pretty stiff and have had no reliability issues so far (not had them very long tho')

i didnt compare vs PX or HED. But what put me off PX was the carbon breaking surface of the clincher, making riding in the wet a bit dodgy. The HED Jets are just regular wheel with a plastic flange over it. (i think cosmic carbones are the same, but i may be wrong). So i cant see why they charge 600 quid for 'em

I got mine for 1k, i.e. before the price hikes. I'll admit at 1250, they're a bit expensive. But if u can afford, what the hell...!

Nuggs

dennisn wrote:

Is there really much difference
between a "Rolls Royce" and a "Bentley"?

Yes. Lots.

andrewgturnbull

steve23 wrote:

ok then.

is there a wheel that will help to increase my Time Trial and Road Race performance, by the factors of stiffness, weight, areodynamics, and cost.

Hi there.

You can't have everything!

If you're looking for an time trial wheel, then 404s aren't deep enough. You really should be looking at 808s or the Xentis Mark II. And a disc for the back. Tubs are generally the best choice here.

For road racing, it depends on your budget. 404 clinchers are a good wheel to race on, but you need to afford to replace them when you hit the inevitable pot hole that you can't avoid because you're in a bunch. Mavic Cosmic Carbonnes would be a better choice here - they are more sturdy as they're made from a spoked aluminium rim with a carbon fairing glued to them - rather than a carbon spoked rim with an aluminium hooked bead/braking surface glued on.

For cost, the obvious choice is Planet X. Or maybe the Dalkiia SIXZERO 60mm carbon wheel.

For a stiff race wheel - something with a more traditional spoke count is going to be better, but obviously less aero.

Personally I've got two different wheel sets - a 68mm Bonty Aeolus front and rear disc for time trialling, and I'm ordering a set of 50mm Mavic Cosmic Carbonnes for the occassional road race, or for time trialling/triathlon on really windy days.

What wheels are you using at the moment?

Cheers, Andy

ps If you're looking at 404s for £800 then I'm guessing they're the '07 model, as the list price is more like £1250. The '08 model is being marketted as being much improved in terms of robustness. There must be a reason why they had to improve it!

dennisn

Nuggs wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Is there really much difference
between a "Rolls Royce" and a "Bentley"?

Yes. Lots.

In what way? Will one get you to your destination quicker than another? Is one more
comfortable than another? Is there reallly much difference other than style? Pricing?
Whatever you want to pay for. For me the main difference between "top of the line"
anything is style. This includes bike wheels. Why do you think they make them all shiny
and pretty? To catch your eye. If I were to guess I would say that at least half of the price of
these wheels is in the bling and advertizing. Neither of which makes you go faster
or even contributes to the wheel quality.

Dennis Noward

grazer

andrewgturnbull wrote:

steve23 wrote:

ok then.

is there a wheel that will help to increase my Time Trial and Road Race performance, by the factors of stiffness, weight, areodynamics, and cost.

ps If you're looking at 404s for £800 then I'm guessing they're the '07 model, as the list price is more like £1250. The '08 model is being marketted as being much improved in terms of robustness. There must be a reason why they had to improve it!

i didnt think there were any changes between 07 - 08 models, the prices went up cos they changed distributors and the shops needed to make more cash out of 'em

but i may be wrong ....

andrewgturnbull

grazer wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

steve23 wrote:

ok then.

is there a wheel that will help to increase my Time Trial and Road Race performance, by the factors of stiffness, weight, areodynamics, and cost.

ps If you're looking at 404s for £800 then I'm guessing they're the '07 model, as the list price is more like £1250. The '08 model is being marketted as being much improved in terms of robustness. There must be a reason why they had to improve it!

i didnt think there were any changes between 07 - 08 models, the prices went up cos they changed distributors and the shops needed to make more cash out of 'em

but i may be wrong ....

Hi there.

The improved robustness bit was based on this marketting blurb "new impact resistant Carbon Bridge technology" Not that I've got a f******g clue what carbon bride technology is - perhaps another way of saying "stronger glue"

220TriathlonMagazine is giving a pair away this month - you could enter on their website, but only if you don't mind associating with people whose dress code is comprised pretty much exclusively of swimwear

Cheers, Andy

grazer

so an extra 250 smackers for some different glue....brill...!!!

btw Andrew, i see u have the same avatar as on Tritalk ...!

JWSurrey

andrewgturnbull wrote:

....Not that I've got a f******g clue what carbon bride technology is...

Heh! Carbon bride - Hmm, now we're talking.
Does she do the post-ride clean-up too? I came back looking like a bog monster today.
As for not having a clue about them - Pretty much like a standard bride then?
I find jewellery helps

I saw some Zipp Flash Points being sold for GBP550 in Cycling Weekly. (Company was La bicicletta I think).
They were billed as being Zipps without dimples.

Personally, I don't go fast enough, so stick with a nice lightweight handbuilt set of hoops that spin up really well, feel lively, and are easy to repair.
Perhaps I'm too "old school".
The difference between a pair of bog standard cheap mid-section wheels and ones with lightweight rims, I found to be quite noticable.
If I was hitting TT speeds in wind-free conditions, perhaps I'd consider a specific set of wheels.

Kléber

Zipps are a bit soft, if you have them you need to send drop them in a wheeljig and increase the spoke tension. The rims can't take great tension anyway, so if you're the owner of some 404s already, check first but they will benefit from a check.

They are also fragile. One pothole is enough to crack the rim. Weightweenies is littered with tales of broken Zipp 404s, they seem to prefer Reynolds DVs over there, or Campagnolo/Fulcrum Boras.

Don't bother with the clincher version, I think you're knocking 1600g here, you might as well buy Mavic Cosmics.

Are the Planet-X rims not the same as the "old" 404 rim, also used by Ritchey and others for deep section carbon wheelsets?

If you want some good deep section wheels for road racing and TTs, think of the Mavics. Yes they are heavier but on flat courses, the aero benefit outweighs the weight penalty. Alternatively, consider normal wheels for road races and have some TT specific wheels, like the 808s or a disc wheel, Xentis etc, as recommended above.

aracer

andrewgturnbull wrote:

If you're looking for an time trial wheel, then 404s aren't deep enough. You really should be looking at 808s or the Xentis Mark II. And a disc for the back. Tubs are generally the best choice here.

Why aren't the 404s deep enough? Maybe the 808s or a disc are slightly more aero, but the difference between a 404 and those is far less than the difference between a Ksyrium and a 404. It's only recently wheels deeper than 404s have been available - I''ve been happily doing TTs on Zipp 400s, which are the same rim depth as 404s for many years, and not really feeling I'm losing out. You'll also see the pros doing TTs on that depth front wheel. Certainly if it's a bit breezy, you may well be glad to have a 404 rather than an 808, and not having to fight the bike the whole way.

Also there's no particular reason why tubs are better for TTs. The main reason they are used is that many aero wheels only come in a tub version (was certainly the case back when I bought mine), and because if a clincher version is available it is generally heavier. Modern clinchers actually roll slightly faster than an equivalent tub!

Oh, and it is worth pointing out that Zipps do generally come out slightly more aero in the windtunnel tests - question is whether you'll really notice the difference.

steve23

andrewgturnbull i am currently using mavic aksiums for TT's and RR's!!!

i cant afford to have two sets of wheels, and am now swaying to the cosmic carbone sl premium wheels, to use for both.

the zipp's just seemed like a dream, but in reality, cost far too much!

are the cosmics ok to road race on? i dont know what the legal max rim depth is!!!

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

Here's some recent wind tunnel data for you:

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-15505311.html

Note the xentis mark II are not on here - they have beaten the 808s in other tests I've seen though.

aracer - you are spot on as always. 404s are almost as good as 808s the difference is only 3w at 50kp/h. Kysriums will cost you another 10w.

However, if I'm going to do something I'll do it to the extreme, hence I want those extra 3w. My current front wheel is 68mm and I've never had any trouble handling that (and a disc) even in very windy conditions. Your mileage may vary though.

Steve - you need to pick your priority. You can road race on the askiums ok, but you are really handicapping yourself on a TT.

There is no maximum rim depth for road racing - instead the UCI keep a list of deep section wheels that have passed their crash tests. All of the wheels we're talking about here are on the list (except Planet X).

For English Time Trialling the rule is that the front wheel must have no more than 40% surface area covered. Xentis make an 'xtreme' wheel that doesn't pass this test. Up here in Scotland anything goes!

Having said all that, the cosmics are a good all-round choice! You can pick them up for under £800

Cheers, Andy

redddraggon

andrewgturnbull wrote:

There is no maximum rim depth for road racing - instead the UCI keep a list of deep section wheels that have passed their crash tests. All of the wheels we're talking about here are on the list (except Planet X).

Just for interest, where can you find the list of allowed wheels? I can't find it on the UCI site.

andrewgturnbull

redddraggon wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

There is no maximum rim depth for road racing - instead the UCI keep a list of deep section wheels that have passed their crash tests. All of the wheels we're talking about here are on the list (except Planet X).

Just for interest, where can you find the list of allowed wheels? I can't find it on the UCI site.

Hi there.

The uci rules say that if you rim is deeper than 25mm then it needs to pass a uci crash test. The list of wheels that have passed is here:

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/getOb ... d=MzUyMjk&

When I saw you'd replied I thought you were going to pick me up on missing out Wales from the TT wheels rules bit... As far as I know Welsh TTs are run under CTT rules, same as in England?

Cheers, Andy

steve23

brilliant, thanks for the help Andy!

looks like i will splash the cash on some Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL Premium wheels!!!

redddraggon

andrewgturnbull wrote:

When I saw you'd replied I thought you were going to pick me up on missing out Wales from the TT wheels rules bit... As far as I know Welsh TTs are run under CTT rules, same as in England?

Nah, I've never even done a TT, I just like shiny stuff. I just find all the kit interesting - getting using it is just a bonus.

So does that mean Zipp 808s are legal in a Road Race?

rjsmith

redddraggon wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

So does that mean Zipp 808s are legal in a Road Race?

Yes, but hardly practical due to the fact that the deep rims will affect handling too muchfor bunch riding. Some pro rode them on the back in the tour last year on the flat stages.

The cosmics are fantastic all-round wheels. Perfectly good for TTs, strong enough for road racing. Bit heavier than Zipps but more durable. Wouldn't use them in very hilly races but you can say that about a lot of deep rim wheels (that aren't Carbonsport Lighteweights!).

andrewgturnbull

rjsmith wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

So does that mean Zipp 808s are legal in a Road Race?

Yes, but hardly practical due to the fact that the deep rims will affect handling too muchfor bunch riding. Some pro rode them on the back in the tour last year on the flat stages.

The cosmics are fantastic all-round wheels. Perfectly good for TTs, strong enough for road racing. Bit heavier than Zipps but more durable. Wouldn't use them in very hilly races but you can say that about a lot of deep rim wheels (that aren't Carbonsport Lighteweights!).

Hi there.

I'd use deep section wheels in hilly races too! What's the difference in weight between a set of lightweight wheels and the cosmics mentioned here? I'll tell you - it's around 600g. Thats one waterbottle - or a few less pies...

Hilly races tend to have downhill bits too - these bits are usually pretty fast, just where an aero wheel will give you a benefit.

If you're talking domestic racing, then the bunches are very small - and any breaks even smaller. Your front wheel is going to see a lot of wind - might as well make it aero.

Cheers, Andy

rjsmith

It about Inertia. Weight on the wheels makes more of a difference than the weight of a waterbottle. Each to their own of course but the lower inertial mass of a shallower rim will do hills better.
Not many people (hats off to those who do) road race by doing race long solo breaks. Most of the time you are part of a bunch, subject to various accelerations and decelerations of others. Here again, the lower inertial mass helps with this.
Don't get me wrong, I love riding aero wheels and do most of the time (English RRs tend not to be hilly enough to worry too much about rim depth), but there are times when I feel a shallower wheel will help.

Jeff Jones

rjsmith wrote:

It about Inertia. Weight on the wheels makes more of a difference than the weight of a waterbottle. Each to their own of course but the lower inertial mass of a shallower rim will do hills better.
Not many people (hats off to those who do) road race by doing race long solo breaks. Most of the time you are part of a bunch, subject to various accelerations and decelerations of others. Here again, the lower inertial mass helps with this.
Don't get me wrong, I love riding aero wheels and do most of the time (English RRs tend not to be hilly enough to worry too much about rim depth), but there are times when I feel a shallower wheel will help.

Rotational inertia has a tiny effect on your speed. See http://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm for an explanation/experiment.

He summarises: in terms of powering your bike, aero is 10 times more important than wheel mass and 100 times more important than wheel inertia.

aracer

rjsmith wrote:

It about Inertia. Weight on the wheels makes more of a difference than the weight of a waterbottle. Each to their own of course but the lower inertial mass of a shallower rim will do hills better.
Not many people (hats off to those who do) road race by doing race long solo breaks. Most of the time you are part of a bunch, subject to various accelerations and decelerations of others. Here again, the lower inertial mass helps with this.

Ass Jeff says, rotational inertia makes very little difference to speed - and none at all to hill climbing, where only the total weight matters since you're not accelerating.

As I've mentioned on here before, whilst you might spend much of your time in the bunch in a road race, unless you're just bunch fodder trying to avoid getting dropped, at the important points in the race you're out front in the wind, so aero does matter (there's also a good argument that being in a bunch doesn't make much difference to the benefit of an aero rear wheel).

Kléber

An interesting quote from the article linked by Jeff:
"Any difference in acceleration due to bicycle wheels that is claimed by your riding buddies is primarily due to cognitive dissonance, or the placebo effect (they paid a lot of money for the wheels so there must be some perceivable gain)."

dennisn

Jeff Jones wrote:

rjsmith wrote:

It about Inertia. Weight on the wheels makes more of a difference than the weight of a waterbottle. Each to their own of course but the lower inertial mass of a shallower rim will do hills better.
Not many people (hats off to those who do) road race by doing race long solo breaks. Most of the time you are part of a bunch, subject to various accelerations and decelerations of others. Here again, the lower inertial mass helps with this.
Don't get me wrong, I love riding aero wheels and do most of the time (English RRs tend not to be hilly enough to worry too much about rim depth), but there are times when I feel a shallower wheel will help.

Rotational inertia has a tiny effect on your speed. See http://www.biketechreview.com/archive/wheel_theory.htm for an explanation/experiment.

He summarises: in terms of powering your bike, aero is 10 times more important than wheel mass and 100 times more important than wheel inertia.

It would appear that everyone has an answer to these questions about aero, weight, looks, etc., etc. My advice. Forget all this crap and buzzword bullsh#t. Go out and buy
a set of handbuilts with Chris King hubs, 28 spoke front, 32 rear, DT revolution spokes,
tubies would be my choice, Mavic rims, Continental Sprinter tires and ride the hell out
of them. They will last a whole lot longer and cost less than some of the stuff being
pushed on this thread as "must have", "can't win without", "most aero", 'lightest".
Go with the dependable, easy to repair, stuff. When you become a pro you will be given all these
other things.

Dennis Noward