Cheap bikes and their real cost
A little research into this (and a review of the many previous threads on this subject) reveals some interesting things: a web site in the US advertises a full carbon frame with Dura Ace components and similar level finishing kit and wheels for less than $2000 (that's less than a thousand quid). Even better bargains are available on the same site if you choose aluminium frames and so on. Your choices are limited to racing bikes, of course, but I wonder if this worries the prestigious makers. After all, the mystique of frame design cannot be hard to copy, and -having had the chance to take a detailed look at a Taiwanese frame (of course all this "low-cost" (?) stuff is Taiwanese)- I was most impressed with design and workmanship.
With many shops offering groupsets and frames alone for more than complete bikes from this (and no doubt other sites) budget website, [and in the case of Italian frames far, far more], is this the start of something which may change the face of the cycle industry? We've always had cheap bikes to choose from, but now we have quality bikes at low prices.
With many shops offering groupsets and frames alone for more than complete bikes from this (and no doubt other sites) budget website, [and in the case of Italian frames far, far more], is this the start of something which may change the face of the cycle industry? We've always had cheap bikes to choose from, but now we have quality bikes at low prices.
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You do have to bear in mind that if you don't smuggle it you'll pay almost £350 tax on that £1000 bike if you import it - and that you can get a DA equipped carbon bike in this country for not much more than that. I doubt most people on here debating the merits of Colnago against Parlee against Cervelo will be particularly interested in such a bike anyway.
Of course it was interesting the reaction I got on here to putting Campag Record on an imported £400 Taiwanese carbon frame - complete bike is under the UCI weight limit for <£2000.0 -
pliptrot wrote:is this the start of something which may change the face of the cycle industry?
I hope not. Don't get me wrong, I don't but big names (unless they are properly discounted) but the big names need to be in the industry to drive innovation. I'm glad people buy big name bikes at full price - keeps the industrial cogs turning. It's great that savvy buyers can now pick up high performance bikes for fair prices too.0 -
People will always want exclusive and big named products. Some purchases are as much about the name on the product as about the product itself. Colnago et al will be around for the forseeable because even though there might be bikes half the price that will do the same job, Colnago is still desirable because of the reputation and prestige. If people just went for what represented the sensible choice we'd all be driving Skodas, wearing M&S shirts, riding Treks and wearing beige slacks.0
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I think this is the same in many industries in genereal. With the development of China and the like with regards to manufacturing and the some what slack attitude to copying everything already patented and designed, i think we'll see more and more well built copies. As another example, i used to be in to rc cars a few years ago - kits I paid hundreds for back then you can buy for £75 now on ebay just because of the development in manufacturing in the east.
The most importnat thing mentioned is that of innovation. On the whole, the cheap manufacturers will be able to copy and produce good new frames, but I don't think they'll be the ones striving forward and coming up with new radical designsHas the head wind picked up or the tail wind dropped off???0 -
So what is radical about the design of the frame you're riding Steve? The UCI has now mandated that we all ride around on frames which look the same as they did 100 years ago (not that there's a lot of advantage in anything else). The only difference is in the material. I'm really struggling to think of anything I'd describe as a real advance in bicycle frame design in the last 10 years.
Bear in mind that many of the Far East companies now making bike frames were already experts in cf manufacture, and road bike geometry isn't rocket science.0 -
Tubing shape, frame geometry, TT specific you're looking at aerodynamics, rider position etc. I agree that the scope is limited due to UCI rules - but surely that makes it even more unlikely that Far East companies are going to strive after the small gains that a major frame designer would look to get in order to give their pro riders an advantage.
I believe (and from my experience with working with companies in China from a design and manufacturing point of view) that the standard of manufacture is very good and innavotive, but that doesn't mean these companies strive forward from a design point of view. It's my experience that they are very good at developing a cost effective manufacturing process for a product, but the actual input side to the product design is poor.
I also belive it's the major players that go out and search for new materials to design parts from, and from that point onwards the cheap manufacturers will look on their results before they commit to using the same stuff.Has the head wind picked up or the tail wind dropped off???0 -
The reason that Chinese/Taiwanese products are cheap is down to volume production processes, cheap overheads and labour cost and not having expensive and temperamental designers and flaky marketing people to contend with. Provided some of the prestige names keep themselves at the forefront through innovative design, new technologies and materials there will always be people prepared to pay a premium for those products. The difficulty arises when it's hard to differentiate the marketing bull from genuine innovation - sadly much of the stuff we see tagged as 'new' is the former.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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pliptrot wrote:A little research into this (and a review of the many previous threads on this subject) reveals some interesting things: a web site in the US advertises a full carbon frame with Dura Ace components and similar level finishing kit and wheels for less than $2000 (that's less than a thousand quid). Even better bargains are available on the same site if you choose aluminium frames and so on. Your choices are limited to racing bikes, of course, but I wonder if this worries the prestigious makers. After all, the mystique of frame design cannot be hard to copy, and -having had the chance to take a detailed look at a Taiwanese frame (of course all this "low-cost" (?) stuff is Taiwanese)- I was most impressed with design and workmanship.
With many shops offering groupsets and frames alone for more than complete bikes from this (and no doubt other sites) budget website, [and in the case of Italian frames far, far more], is this the start of something which may change the face of the cycle industry? We've always had cheap bikes to choose from, but now we have quality bikes at low prices.
Which site are you looking at out of interest?0 -
www.bikesdirect.com
You'll notice that they advertise a "high modulus carbon fibre" monocoque frame for the small beer I alluded to. There's precious little coming from Colnago, Pinarello and the like to differentiate their products from this. The immediate dismissal of cheap (perhaps inexpensive is the correct word) frames on this forum, followed by the magic of turning vices into virtues (small volumes and high prices) suggest much about bike buying behaviour. I guess it's a little like watches - you can now get a watch at a price which costs less than having the battery renewed at a jewelers; it's more accurate and lighter than a Rolex (or similar), and costs 1,000th of the price of the Swiss masterpiece. And there are plenty of hard-headed, sensible folk who buy the latter. Which prompts another question: is you bike a tool or jewelery? for those prepared to pay top price for top brands, I trust you're happy knowing that Ernesto and Ugo are very, very rich indeed. And just imagine the profit margin on a Cervelo - made in Taiwan and sold to compete with Italy's finest.
What suckers we are.0 -
What you do have to remember though is that there are cf frames and cf frames - not all are made equal. The Motobecane one on there is quoted as 2.7lbs (1.2kg), which is on the porky side for a current cf frame - you can bet that's the weight for the smallest size too. Meanwhile Pedalforce frames are around or even under the 1kg mark (my 55cm QS2 is 998g if you take all the removeable bits off).
Of course Colnago frames aren't actually the lightest, but their fans will undoubtedly say how they look nice and chunky and strong, and I'm sure they're laterally stiff but vertically compliant
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I doubt it. Especially considering as Taiwanese prices will be rising by around 25% very shortly.0
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Adam Tranter wrote:I doubt it. Especially considering as Taiwanese prices will be rising by around 25% very shortly.
Why's that?0 -
Increase in raw materials & increase in labour costs.0
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As cyclists it is likely we are more aware of the world than many, and have some concern for the plights of others. If prices from the far East are set to rise - and that benefits the workforce- that can only be a good thing. I'll buy something made in Taiwan or China or any Low Cost Country when I am satisfied that it is made in conditions similar to those in Europe, following the same environmental requirements and by people who enjoy good wages, conditions and provisions akin to those at home. Until then, no. It seems that very few others -going by the source of most clothing and electrical items- are of similar mind.
Hopefully I'm wrong on that point.0 -
There's an interesting article on Cyclingnews that goes behind-the-scenes at the Shimano wheel factory in Malaysia. I'm not sure it will tell you much about pay conditions, but interesting all the same.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id= ... _factory080 -
Colnago- a bike I sought, bought & wish I had not- paint quality VERY poor, already had to have forks resprayed under warranty after 18mths, Just waiting to get rid & go back to a Dolan.0
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pliptrot wrote:As cyclists it is likely we are more aware of the world than many, and have some concern for the plights of others. If prices from the far East are set to rise - and that benefits the workforce- that can only be a good thing. I'll buy something made in Taiwan or China or any Low Cost Country when I am satisfied that it is made in conditions similar to those in Europe, following the same environmental requirements and by people who enjoy good wages, conditions and provisions akin to those at home. Until then, no. It seems that very few others -going by the source of most clothing and electrical items- are of similar mind.
Hopefully I'm wrong on that point.
I'm of a similar mind. After the slaughter of Tianamen Square a few years ago (which some of you may not quite fully remember) for which China has never properly apologised for, yet many countries in the rest of the world seem to have forgotten in the dash for cash, I've tried to not buy things which are made in China and I am prepared to pay a premium to do so. Sadly, the way it is currently, it is a very difficult thing to do in all but the very top of the product line. It seems that almost every item has some Chinese component in it.
Here in Oz there seems to be a lot more stuff made in the country and if it does the job I want, I'll buy that before any import, even at a premium price. However, even this is getting harder to do so now such is the flood of imports from China.
I'll get off my hobby horse now!!!0 -
I'd have a good look at where your high end frame actually comes from in that case. Not that I'm convinced not buying stuff from their countries is the best way to lift them out of poverty.pliptrot wrote:I'll buy something made in Taiwan or China or any Low Cost Country when I am satisfied that it is made in conditions similar to those in Europe, following the same environmental requirements and by people who enjoy good wages, conditions and provisions akin to those at home. Until then, no.0 -
As long as the price differentials aren't ridiculous then they'll always be desirable more expensive branded bikes ... the cheaper bikes do us all - snobs and bargain hunters- a service in that way by keeping the prices of branded bikes down. I notice this month's C+ has a Cannondale full carbon with 105 for £1250 ... way cheaper than a couple of years ago.
I have one taiwanese bikes and two "desirable" brand bikes. Cycling is my main hobby so it's nice to have a bike that is lusted after and you love looking at ... but others get pleasure out of a low cost but high performance build.
I'm under no illusions that my £1500 frame is marginally, if any, better than the best stuff coming from taiwan0 -
We are being ripped off in a huge way, as illustrated by the Indians starting to produce small cars for about the cost of a Dura Ace equiped bike. Shimano must be coining it.my baby elephant would rather walk than be a Campag snob0
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err....and???
- if you take the rest of my comments in full context (see below) and don't gratuitiously snip, they addressed the current reality of life that no matter ones thoughts, most things will contain products which are made in China (even the top brands). It would be very difficult to find products nowadays which are completely Chinese free. There nothing worse than someone snipping comments out of context to make another persons viewpoint different from what was intended.I've tried to not buy things which are made in China and I am prepared to pay a premium to do so. Sadly, the way it is currently, it is a very difficult thing to do in all but the very top of the product line. It seems that almost every item has some Chinese component in it.
Tawian and its political status is a bit of a hornets nest best left for other forums but currently, Taiwan the last time I looked is not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Hence, Taiwanese made bikes are not made in China - end of. So what was your point?0 -
Top_Bhoy wrote:Tawian and its political status is a bit of a hornets nest best left for other forums but currently, Taiwan the last time I looked is not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Hence, Taiwanese made bikes are not made in China - end of. So what was your point?
Hmm, that's a debatable point in it's self.Wikipedia wrote:During the 1960s and 1970s, the ROC began to develop into a prosperous, and high-tech industrialized developed country, while maintaining an authoritarian, single-party government. Because of the Cold War, most Western nations and the United Nations regarded the ROC as the sole legitimate government of China until the 1970s and especially after the termination of the Sino-American Mutual Defense Treaty, when most nations began switching recognition to the PRC.
ROC = Republic of China (Taiwan)
PRC = People's Republic of China0 -
redddraggon wrote:Top_Bhoy wrote:Tawian and its political status is a bit of a hornets nest best left for other forums but currently, Taiwan the last time I looked is not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Hence, Taiwanese made bikes are not made in China - end of. So what was your point?
Hmm, that's a debatable point in it's self.
It is, hence the 'hornets nest' comparison!! We're venturing into soapbox territory here 0 -
Top_Bhoy wrote:redddraggon wrote:Top_Bhoy wrote:Tawian and its political status is a bit of a hornets nest best left for other forums but currently, Taiwan the last time I looked is not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Hence, Taiwanese made bikes are not made in China - end of. So what was your point?
Hmm, that's a debatable point in it's self.
It is, hence the 'hornets nest' comparison!! We're venturing into soapbox territory here
Sorry I seemed to have skipped over the first phrase. Oops.0 -
An interesting point raised by Red Dragon on another thread - Are Deda. (Italian) carbon monocoque frames made in the Far East, or are they made in Italy at a Deda. factory?
Also, Deda. make a number of carbon tubes - How much of these tubes are actually made in Italy? They make no secret of the fact they're using Toray Carbon fibres, which I believe are made in Japan.
Would they be woven in a Toray factory too?
What about the actual fabrication process?
My road bikes are Italian or British, but the "American" MTB is made in Taiwan (ironically, everyone raves about how light it is - it's about 10 years old and made from steel, yet lighter than a lot of today's Ally MTBs).
Paint:
I was talking to a bike designer last year.
He pointed out that a volume Taiwanese manufacturer will be geared up to bake the paint to the frames, whereas low volume "custom" spray work will be softer.
It's also been pointed out in this week's Cycling Weekly, that a Gloss spray finish will be less durable than a non gloss.
Of course, it would also be interesting to see how much weight a baked paint finish adds to a bike - Our Taiwanese frame has some very chunky levels of paint on it, although it's more durable.0 -
Top_Bhoy wrote:err....and???
- if you take the rest of my comments in full context (see below) and don't gratuitiously snip, they addressed the current reality of life that no matter ones thoughts, most things will contain products which are made in China (even the top brands). It would be very difficult to find products nowadays which are completely Chinese free. There nothing worse than someone snipping comments out of context to make another persons viewpoint different from what was intended.I've tried to not buy things which are made in China and I am prepared to pay a premium to do so. Sadly, the way it is currently, it is a very difficult thing to do in all but the very top of the product line. It seems that almost every item has some Chinese component in it.
Tawian and its political status is a bit of a hornets nest best left for other forums but currently, Taiwan the last time I looked is not part of the Peoples Republic of China. Hence, Taiwanese made bikes are not made in China - end of. So what was your point?
Quoted the whole post this time
Kinesis, like Giant and Merida, moved most of their production to mainland China.0 -
At least you had the courtesy of not snipping the post this time but I still don't get whatever point it is your trying to get across except to try and look a smart ass. I've already said that as much as you try to avoid it, buying chinese goods is almost unavoidable in the current climate.0
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Just trying to work out your logic, Top_Bhoy.0
