Is Licensing for Cycles/Cyclists Inevitable?

prj45

Also, mandatory third party insurance.

Seeing lots of calls for this in forums recently.

Can't say I'm 100% opposed, and it certainly wouldn't stop me if any/all of the measures that some people are obviously clamouring for were introduced, but it just seems so sad that it would discourage a lot of people who take up casual cycling

Jakes Dad

Without having to register the bike and have a No plate like a motorised vehicle i cant really see how a system could work ?

Simon

prj45

Jakes Dad wrote:

Without having to register the bike and have a No plate like a motorised vehicle i cant really see how a system could work ?

Simon

Well, yes, that's what would happen I imagine.

whyamihere

I would absolutely hate bike licensing. The difference between bikes and cars is that bikes are often built up from scratch. When cars are built from scratch, they have to go through an extensive SVA test, if one of these was introduced for bikes, one would have to be done every time we build a new bike... We're probably more likely to buy a new bike than most people buy a new car, and would most likely have to get it registered ourselves, instead of the dealer registering it as with a car.

Rider licensing, however, I'm not fundamentally opposed to, if it's in a format similar to the CBT for motorbikes. Compulsory Bike Training. Go out for a few hours with an instructor, they make sure that you're up to a basic level of required competence. For example, making sure that you can ride one handed without wobbling for signalling, making sure that people know the laws of the roads. If this was introduced, then the police would actually have a weapon against the cyclists among us who give the rest of us a bad name. If we don't have a bad name, we (theoretically) won't attract the hatred of motorists, and the roads will become safer for all of us.

Just my two pence.

Jakes Dad

The cost of setting up such a system and maintaning it would be collosal !

Just think how many bicycles are already in the UK that would need processing ?

And the fact that a bicycle is'nt a motorised vehicle how would they justify a licensing system and where would it end ? scooters ~ roller blades ~ push chairs ?

Personally i dont think it will ever happen
Simon

ianfranklin

They used to have bike licensng in Portugal - my son still has his no plate. A genuine racing bike was exempt (it might have had a very small tag)
However in a country which thrives on paper work the system was dropped a few years ago.

BentMikey

Why would anyone bother to license cyclists or bicycles? We very rarely injure or kill people in comparison with motor vehicles, just look at the cheap third party insurance for cycling. I think there will always be book ends making waves about it, and I doubt it will ever come about.

Jakes Dad

whyamihere wrote:

Rider licensing, however, I'm not fundamentally opposed to, if it's in a format similar to the CBT for motorbikes. Compulsory Bike Training. Go out for a few hours with an instructor, they make sure that you're up to a basic level of required competence. For example, making sure that you can ride one handed without wobbling for signalling, making sure that people know the laws of the roads. If this was introduced, then the police would actually have a weapon against the cyclists among us who give the rest of us a bad name. If we don't have a bad name, we (theoretically) won't attract the hatred of motorists, and the roads will become safer for all of us.
Just my two pence.

That would work a treat would'nt it ?

Motor Cyclist and Car Drivers (of which im both) dont ever do anything stupid on the roads and everyone has the utmost respect for them ... dont they ?

well ... except for the Boy Racers and chavs oh and lets not forget the bikers in their full race replica leathers and bikes that think they are Barry Sheene every time they swing their leg over their bikes oh and sales reps that are late for their next appointment and the list goes on and on and on

Licensing will not do what you think it will

Simon

whyamihere

Yes, that comment was made through a rose-tinted keyboard I suppose...

Yes, we will always have some idiots who decide they are above the law. I completely agree, there's nothing we can do about those. However, if there was something to stop some of them, then it would be an improvement.

Don't get me wrong, I'm most definitely not advocating compulsory licenses for cyclists. I'd hate being forced to take proof of my license out with me every time I hop on a bike, as some journalists have said we should do. It would rob me of some of the freedom I love of cycling. However, I will concede that there are cyclists who could definitely benefit from a few hours of basic training. We've all seen the people weaving about as though drunk. They may actually be drunk, but I know that some of them are simply new riders.

I don't know what the best solution is. Bike licensing definitely isn't it. I definitely don't like the idea of rider licensing either, and would hate it if it was too strict. However, a period of training similar to the CBT would be just about tolerable if we are forced to accept something, especially if there's a way we can take a test to prove our skill and so avoid the need for that training.

el_presidente

I think it is unworkable and like many things people write on forums it hasn't been thought through.

Also, I can't really see there being any political will to push it through as it would hardly be a vote winner across most of the population who refrain from posting on message boards and I suspect are cycling agnostic

nwallace

Registration and licensing provides traceability.

Cyclist licensing can be done by formalising cycling proficiency.

The government have just been talked out of making licensing of non-road going motor vehicles compulsory basically because of similar impracticalities as mentioned for self build bikes. (Try taking an F1 car for an SVA)

Compulsory insurance would also be crap:

Modifications:
Lights: Rear Positioning - Battery : Led
Lights: Front Positioning - Battery : Led
Pedals: Foot retention device added
Frame: Bottle Cages added
Saddle: Non-standard
Wheels: Changed - Non-Manufacturer Standard
Transmission Changes: Non-Standard chainrings

Reason for refusal: Too many modifications

Random Vince

nwallace wrote:

Registration and licensing provides traceability.

Cyclist licensing can be done by formalising cycling proficiency.

The government have just been talked out of making licensing of non-road going motor vehicles compulsory basically because of similar impracticalities as mentioned for self build bikes. (Try taking an F1 car for an SVA)

Compulsory insurance would also be crap:

Modifications:
Lights: Rear Positioning - Battery : Led
Lights: Front Positioning - Battery : Led
Pedals: Foot retention device added
Frame: Bottle Cages added
Saddle: Non-standard
Wheels: Changed - Non-Manufacturer Standard
Transmission Changes: Non-Standard chainrings

Reason for refusal: Too many modifications

or in my case:
Modifications:
Lights: Rear Positioning - Battery : Led
Lights: Front Positioning - twin Battery : Led
Pedals: none standard foot retention
Frame: not on system
Saddle: Non-standard
Wheels: not on system - built by owner
Transmission Changes: type not on system

Reason for refusal: system error


60's carlton re- built including correctly sized 27 inch wheels and cotted cranks


lets go modern:
Modifications:
handle bars:kona DH
stem: Specialized OEM
forks: marzocchi MX comps
Lights: Rear Positioning - Battery : Led
Lights: Front Positioning - Battery : Led
Pedals: none standard with spikes
Frame: not on system
Saddle: Non-standard - custom build
Wheels: Changed - Non-Manufacturer Standard
Transmission Changes: Non-Standard chainrings

Reason for refusal: Too many modifications
custom built (by myself) on one inbred - systems like this tend to miss out small manufacturers

however i did get a quote for both my bikes insuring against theft, the road bike isnt worth insuring as depreciation makes it valueless on paper

the inbred can be insured for about £150 per year

Cunobelin

THere are three great cycling myths:
1. Cyclists need insurance.

Many cyclists already have, either as "liability" on their household insurance or through membership of organisations like the CTC.

2. Cyclists don't pay "Road Tax"
Leaving aside thefactthat it is Vehcle EXcise Duty - we do!
Cycles are fairly and squarely in the vehicle band A where the tax is nil. Assessed bthesame criteria as cars and paying according to the same criteria.

3.Cyclists need registration
Again ignoring the fact that 10% of vehicles are improperly or not registered at all, we are in a situation where the cost would outweigh the advantages. Many are registered. ALL of mine are, my local Police have details of all my bikes including frame numbers and descriptions.

These are old chesnuts reeled out every now an then to act as a "Restriction" on the perceived greater freedom that we experience.

scalamanga007

The police/authorities are stretched enough already. How would they ever enforce such a system?

My daily ride is a constant battle with drivers driving with undue care and attention under the nose's of police and nothing is done to protect the cyclist so as for them enforcing a registration system its never going to happen.

Belv

If they start charging me to use my bicycle, i'll stop using it.

And since i have passed my cycling proficiency, full motorbike and car tests, and have several years experience on all of these modes of transport (a few decades since the cycling one!), i'd feel a little patronised having to 'learn' how to use a road safely.

dirk_van_gently

the only logic I can see for registration of bicycles would be to appease the bicycle hating motorist, and those who claim that we can only get respect if we pay for the roads we ride on. If the fee was based on "Emissions" as is the current Excise Duty, then the fee would not cover the administration costs, not that that would stop a government hell bent on such a scheme.
Rider licencing I see no real problem with, so long as it is handled sensibly, and the cost are not outragous. I think something like the old motorcycle system, where you could ride solo with "L" plates, and take a test within a fixed time period. It could be handled quite simply by local schools and cycling officers, there could be an amnesty for riders with experience. The old cyclling Proficiency test was the first small step to becoming a road user, I'm sure ex bicycle and motorcycle riders make better car drivers, you just have so much more road awareness

misterben

People seem to assume that licensing would in some way automagically mean enforcement.

The fact is that road laws are very rarely enforced for cyclists, and this is the main problem, not the fact that cyclists/cycles are unlicensed. Licensing them would be expensive, and would not produce any additional benefits. Better to spend the money on a proper enforcement of the existing system.

Brains

I'm not against the idea in principal on the condition that:

The bike frame is registered the same way as a dog, with a hidden chip that can be scanned for, this would mean that most of recovered bikes could be traced to their owners, likewise any cyclist stopped for RLJing for example would have the frame scanned. You would pay a one off fee every time you bought a new frame, so no annual renewals

As for a cycle licence, I have been proposing this for years, every 11 year old should get one as part of the education system. To encourage take up, those kids leaving school every day on a bike go 15 mins before those leaving by car. The 'excuse' being that this keeps the dangerious Mum's off the road until they cyclists are home

I would also introduce a new level to the car driving licence.

You can not get a car driving licence until you have your motorbike licence.
You can not get a motorbike licence until you have your cycle licence
With each licence being a two part-er (one to learn and another say a year later to prove you are competent)

This would encourage every kid in the land to get a bike licence, encourage cycle use, and eventually vastly improve the level of ability of the typical car driver (and may go some way to curing our carbon footprint and obesity issues)

So a bike licence/register of frames could be a good idea all round

mea00csf

I'm totally for teaching kids how to ride bikes and the highway code at school, including safe cycling round towns/cities etc.

Don't see why you'd need to have a motorbike license before a car license, can't see any benefit to that at all??

Bikes kill/injure very few, if any, members of the public per year if you don't include the rider in the statistics. Cars kill and injure lots of members of the public a year, so i'd rather see a clamp down on bad driving as it's going to have a much greater effect.

Bad cycling is at the best an annoyance, at worst death to the rider (which being brutally harsh would be their own fault most of the time). Bad driving is dangerous to everyone closeby, including other motorists, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians. Which is why i can't understand the self rightousness that some motorists have.

Brains

The befits of having to have a motorbike licence before a car a license would be:

Time - As it would take at least a year to get the motorbike licence, you would be that much older before you had one

Skill - As any car driving instructor will tell you motorbike drivers make better pupils

Appreciation: Those on 4 wheels will appreciate the problems of those on two and be far more considerate

Chav removal: As those in cars will need to learn to drive a cycle and a motorbike before they get behind the wheel of a car, there will be a percentage that never get that far

Every extra motorbike on the road is one less car.

The overall percentage of motorbikes would increase considerably, as people would realise they can get around a lot faster on a motorbike than they can in a car

(I have a load of ideas about reducing the number of cars, especially in our cities if anyone cares)

The one downside would be more idiots on motorbikes, but, like cyclists, they are more of a danger to themselves than they are to other people, and I'd rather an idiot on a motorbike than in a car

Belv

Brains wrote:

As for a cycle licence, I have been proposing this for years, every 11 year old should get one as part of the education system. To encourage take up, those kids leaving school every day on a bike go 15 mins before those leaving by car. The 'excuse' being that this keeps the dangerious Mum's off the road until they cyclists are home.

All it would mean is that the "dangerous Mum's" would hit them on their way to collect their kids rather than on the way home with them! It would need to be about an hour to avoid the Mums, since my DW informs me that there a lot of Mums who arrive half an hour early so that they can get a parking space rather than walk 15 mins each way!

Brains

Belv wrote:

Brains wrote:

As for a cycle licence, I have been proposing this for years, every 11 year old should get one as part of the education system. To encourage take up, those kids leaving school every day on a bike go 15 mins before those leaving by car. The 'excuse' being that this keeps the dangerous Mum's off the road until they cyclists are home.

All it would mean is that the "dangerous Mum's" would hit them on their way to collect their kids rather than on the way home with them! It would need to be about an hour to avoid the Mums, since my DW informs me that there a lot of Mums who arrive half an hour early so that they can get a parking space rather than walk 15 mins each way!

OK, gets better still, those on bike leave an hour before those being picked up in a car by Mummy.

Kids pester power will do wonders for cycling, obesity, traffic levels, as no one will be driven to/from school , it will become 'uncool' not to cycle. Win Win situation

For those with doubts, Denmark has a similar system, introduced over 30 years ago, I forget the percentage, but it's something like 75% of Danish kids cycle or walk to school. In the UK the same percentage are driven by parents.

TheFoolio888

I really can't see it happening...well not in a pay licence kind of way.

Altough the government generally treats cyclist with disdain, they know that having to pay for a licence would put off 1000s from even thkinking about it.However...if all of the money went towards cycle facilities....I'd be happy to pay a minimal fee.....at least it would keep the whinging tin can drivers off our back.

dirk_van_gently

Belv writ:

lot of Mums who arrive half an hour early so that they can get a parking space rather than walk 15 mins each way!

And the Government wonders why there is an obesity crisis!!

Hands up? those on the forum who are obese? :-?

ddraver

umm well me actually.....

WeirdNeville

It will never happen. The revenue raised would NEVER match the costs of running a system. There are more pedal cycles in the cuntry than cars, and so the organisation would have to be at least the size of the DVLA.

And as soo as the green lobbies got hold of it, citing the harm it would do to 10 years work trying to encourage people to commute by bike, it'd be game over.

prj45

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

Hands up? those on the forum who are obese? :-?

Yup, me too technically, although you wouldn't call me fat if you saw me.

One of my legs alone probably classes me as obsese on the scale we're used to seeing.

The top of my legs are 32 inches round, each, that's bigger than some people's trousers and not a spec of fat in sight.

Jakes Dad

Brains ... dont ever stand for Government and you might want to have a serious think about changing your nic as well

The only sensible suggestion that you've come up with is to have all 11 year old school children to take part in the Cycling Proficiency Test

Simon

nwallace

Obese me, no er actually borderline with overweight. Once I hit 14 stone the amount of exercise I do seems to be perfectly balanced with the amount of food I eat. Or it could jsut be that I dive into the cupboards after a ride.

Mettan

jakes Dad wrote:

That would work a treat would'nt it ?

Motor Cyclist and Car Drivers (of which im both) dont ever do anything stupid on the roads and everyone has the utmost respect for them ... dont they ?

well ... except for the Boy Racers and chavs oh and lets not forget the bikers in their full race replica leathers and bikes that think they are Barry Sheene every time they swing their leg over their bikes oh and sales reps that are late for their next appointment and the list goes on and on and on

Licensing will not do what you think it will

Simon

+1 , and fully agreed Simon - what a sad little nanny state we're living in if we can't get on a bike and go for a ride without being licensed, registered, chipped etc..........

prj45

Mettan wrote:

+1 , and fully agreed Simon - what a sad little nanny state we're living in if we can't get on a bike and go for a ride without being licensed, registered, chipped etc..........

Ah, but some people wil say the same about going out for a drive in their car...