Ashdown Forest - off road access

TonyS

The new year dawns and yet again I'm looking at maps for possible routes .. to see the largest open space in Sussex devoid of permitted off road cycling whilst the equine brigade can pay £80 to pugg up the 'poor weak soil' of Ashdown.

Others have tried to reverse the 'no wheeled' policy .. and failed, but I feel that this year we might stand a chance to change things if there are enough people prepared to support the cause.

Ashdown Forest, Chailey Heritage and Red Gill are three of several 'open' commons in the low weald which are open to horse riders but closed to off road cyclists.

So a few questions:

- Would you be prepared to ride the forest during the day?
- Would you be prepared to ride the forest at night?
- Do you think a group ride would be best?
- Would a 'mass' ride be best to protest/publise the inequality?
- Should we forget the place and let the ramblers/horses roam free?
- Would you pay £80 a year to ride off bridleways freely?

breezer

I do find it compeltely ridiculous that many places allow horses during the winter but not bikes. Have any of these people in charge of access ever actually looked at a path that a horse has been on when its muddy!! :x

From what ive seen driving past it, a lot of the paths are gravel/stone anyway so erosion from bikes shouldnt really be an issue, no problems in the New Forest etc

I wouldnt pay £80, half that maybe and I know permit options are used at other places like in Surrey etc

mudslinger

Briefly looking at my map I can see 1 bridleway at Chelwood. I thought horses were only allowed on bridleways - is that not the case?

There was a petition about this last year & from what I remember I think the council were reasonably sympathetic to offroad biking. I'll search for the link & post back.

Where abouts are you Tony?

OllyUK

mudslinger wrote:

I thought horses were only allowed on bridleways - is that not the case?

A general rule of thumb is that on a bike you're allowed wherever a horse is, the only exception is on permissive paths where they can choose what is allowed through (including the nicest bit of woodland near me, horses are allowed through but there are big signs saying NO CYCLISTS :evil: )

mudslinger

This is the petition I was referring to:

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/ashdown/

TonyS

Where am I?

Wivelsfield about 10 miles from Ashdown Forest.

mudslinger

I'm in Haywards Heath. Where do you tend to go riding?

TonyS

All over the place include Friston, Whiteways, various bits of the SDW and locally in places like Ashen Ground or my local - Ditchling common. Give us a shout if you want some company on a ride or join the next Group ride with the Sussex Muddyar$e crew, next ride is 26th (see http://sussexmuddyarse.wordpress.com/).

mudslinger

Great. I'll contact you or might try to do the Muddy ride.

antzpantz

As an update I tried to get access to Ashdown and submitted the petition a few years back. Ashdown is run by conservators on behalf of the council. Access can be given and taken away by a group of around 12 people who are not elected and share common views about how areas of nature conservation should be run.

In this case horse riding is only allowed by permit and mountain biking is not allowed, there are very few rights of way across this area. The group voted on this issue and gave the view that mountain biking would erode the fragile sandstone geology and create too much disturbance to wildlife; there would also be conflict with other recreational users. I asked the IBMA who were going to look into it but didn't have enough to devote to the issue, maybe it should be raised again. Or maybe take a leaf of the rambler’s book and do a ‘Kinder Scout’

antzpantz

And just one more update, the draft forest plan has just been published for ashdown, the final doc is due in March 2008 and sets the strategy for the next 8 years. E-mail conservators@ashdownforest.org with your views. The document does not mention anything about mountain biking and does not give any reason to justify a ban. The main comments I received a few years ago were about erosion and disturbance issues.

If you do e-mail please copy in hew@ashdownforest.org as he is the clerk. More here :- http://www.ashdownforest.org/news/news_stakeholder.php

TonyS

Thanks for the update. Most interesting sentence in the report is

"The only substantial income from the amenity use of the Forest comes from
riding permits."

From my understanding of the accounts there are currently 350 odd horse riders paying the annual permit to give access to 130km of maintained rides/fire breaks.

maca116

All,
Me and a mate have been on this issue for a while, been in contact with sustrans, imba etc. Even the council do not know why it is not allowed! Gave a massive bunch of info on projects, sustainable biking and erosion info to Hew Prentegast a couple of years ago, as did me mate, neither worked - probably in a shredder somewhere!! Just written another letter as it may make a difference now they are having to look at new areas to introduce money to the forest.

Maca

breezer

You may want to have a look at http://www.daysofspeed.com/ashdown_forest.htm

Stealth0101

Greetings everyone,

As has been mentioned the draft Forest Plan is ready for review. There is a meeting at Crowborough All Saints Community Centre (Chapel Green, Church Road) from 7pm to 9pm on Monday 25th February. You can find the draft plan here http://www.ashdownforest.org/docs/Draft_Forest_Plan.pdf You will observe that pride of place at the end goes to the new 'Strictly No Cycling' signs.

I went last year and to be honest it's just dog walkers moaning. On the subject of dog walkers you should note that the Forest bye laws state that dogs must be under control. It's our opinion that the only way to maintain a dog under control is to have it on a lead. It's also worth considering that dogs run off into the undergrowth disturbing nesting birds and other wildlife.

For anyone who's interested here's the link to the Ashdown Forest Act. http://www.ashdownforest.co.uk/Information/act.htm

It's interesting to note that 'the Conservators may authorise by licence any activity and may collect and retain any monies due. Such control may not apply to the rights of the commoners or to access to individual members of the public on foot', so the only reason we can't ride is because the conservators won't allow it. I have prepared a mail / letter to send to them but haven't got round to it yet but if anyone wants a copy mail me

dave@daysofspeed.com

Stealth
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GhallTN6

It's not just the view of the conservetor's, but everyone who uses the forest, even riding the bridleway between Kings Standing and the Crow and Gate, which is a legal, is running the gauntlet, I once had a bunch of tattoed pikey's set their dog on me after a heated debate as to me biking on "their" forest.

Look at Bedgebury and how much income is gained from the half hearted so called MTB trail.. If Ashdown forest were to sieze the opportunity, do it properly, they would rake it in..

I'd be prepared to pay a yearly cost, similar to Bedgebury to ride the forest, and I know that my MTB pals would as well, I'm not even saying that you should be allowed to ride all the forest, maybe just a decent portion with a bit of varied trails.

At the end of the day, we don't stray of tracks scaring wildlife, shout and whiste for out dog's to come back, and need I say more about the carnage that hooves cause on soft ground.

Out of interest, has anyone ever been caught riding on the forest, and if so, what were the consequences!

Realistacally, paperwork doesn't work with these people, but if we get enough people to stand up and be heard in other ways, we might get somewhere.

TonyS

A few observations

Bye-law 2 I assume was passed after public consultation.

"As a general principle, it is for a local authority to decide the necessary and
appropriate byelaws for its area. However, local authorities are expected to consult
any interested parties and consider their views before making and advertising byelaws."

I'd believe this need for consultation extents to the conservators.

"Before any byelaws can come into force they must first be confirmed by the
relevant Secretary of State. The rationale for this has been that, as byelaws create
criminal offences, they should be subject to scrutiny by central government."

leaving

"If no substantive objections are received, the sealed byelaws are confirmed by
officials under authorisation on behalf of the Secretary of State. Byelaws can only
come into force if they have been confirmed."

At the time I suspect there was no substantive objections due to there being no off road cyclists.

Sussexsnow

Folks

I live in Horsted Keynes and ride the roads of the Forest a lot. Enviously eyeing the the off-road stuff. So, very pleased to see others are thinking about the access issue. I note that the consultation about the managment plan closes on the 6th. How many folks are going to make a submission? We're all keen on it but do we know if the CTC or the BCU or other cycling bodies are intending to make a submission? Is it up to us?

The other avenue I am exploring is exploiting the land ownership by East Sussex County Council. I work in government and there's a lot of talk about local government picking up responsibility for outcomes such as 'healthier citizens' etc. So you see councils partnering with health and police authorities in local area agreement. This can have strange impacts on previously forgotten policy areas. So cycling is no longer see as just a liesure or transport issue but a health one. I'm trying to find out if ESCC has joined up cycling with these policy drivers. It would seem odd for them to ban cycling and at the same time promote it...

Also if you go to www.number10.gov.uk and look for epetitions (on right hand side) , search on Ashdown Forest, you'll find a petition calling for more democracy in the body that runs the Forest.

Cheers

Nick

GhallTN6

A big thanks for those MTB enthusiasts who turned up at the Ashdown Forest meeting last night, I think we can all agree that it was a very productive meeting and that we were suprised at the positive reaction we received, not only from the Conservators, but the public as well.

We are on the way to creating an action group, and if we can get the correct information together, create a proposal that persuades the conservators that mountain biking can be sustainable while increasing funding for the benefit of Ashdown Forest, we could be on our way.

It's not going to happen overnight, It may take a couple of years, but there's a spark there we need to pursue.

Watch this space, and if you think that you can help, or have any experience in this kind of field, please let us know.

cheers

mudslinger

Excellent, that sounds positive. Can you give a summary of what was discussed?

I guess with these things it is a case of continuing to apply some pressure otherwise the MTB view will be forgotten.

GhallTN6

I'm guessing that you don't really want to know about how grazing of sheep or the need for culling of deer is a bit of an issue, but we did have to wait a curious hour and a half to mention the MTB issue.

Basically, we thought there was going to be a missive debate which would surely end in chairs (or zimmer frames) being thrown.. but there was no real objections to the suggestions we had, the main issue that the Conservators have is with control, how can we guarantee that if mountain biking is allowed, it can either be controlled to certain areas, or to a specific MTB trail whilst ensuring that unruly riders won’t be ripping up sensitive areas of the forest.

I think we are thinking more along the lines of one or two MTB trails on the forest, similar to that of Friston/Bedgbury (but better), with perhaps one or two linking trails. Revenue could be raised by introducing day or season passes and improving the visitor centre to accommodate for the after ride welsh rarebit, bike wash etc.

Don't worry about keeping the pressure on, now we've got a foot in the door, we'll inch our way in, but it's a sensitive issue and will have to be taken and presented in the correct format with case studies and other material to back us up.

mudslinger

After recently going to a Mid Sussex council meeting about traffic calming measures I can imagine what it was like.

Sounds very positive. Keep us posted on updates & whether there is anything anyone else can do to help the cause.

TonyS

Good to hear there is dialog.

Noclue

This is all great news, perhaps if we could get someone from the forestry commision to speak up on the sustainability and benefits of MTB.

duncdan

Following the meeting in Crowborough last week I thought i would start putting together a proposal in the style of a buisness case that could be presented to the conservators. I have communicated with the concervators on this subject for a few years and i am so glad this forum has got us all talking!!

I realy want to have a list of as many interested mountainbikers as possible so that we can all keep in contact and up to date. I emailed Hew prendergast today and would be happy to circulate this to anyone interested. If you let me know your email i will endevour to keep you informed with my communications.

If anyone has experience in writing business cases i would appreciate some help, I have a degree in forestry so i can realate to some land management issues but other expertise and ideas welcomed!

Duncan

duncdan6@lineone.net

duncdan

I got court by the ranger Roger... cant remember his surname a few years ago, after a few stern words he realised i was human and we had a very civilised discussion before he directed me to the best decent down the hill with the words "if i was your age i would want to ride here" . Nice bloke but armed with a camera!!! The Rangers are just court in the middle. Another lady hurled abuse at me once but i kept cool (just) and after 15 mins she said "well i dont see why people like you cant ride on the forest" Another nice person who is completly misguided and ignorant of what it is all about. I dont ride much on the forest now as I hate those type of confrontations.

stumpymark

Hi,

I was riding with 6 others last weekend (you know who you are) and we got caught riding on Ashdown Forest by a female Forest Ranger! Some of the guys chatted with her but she was pretty stern about us not riding. The way I see it is we keep our heads down and don't raise our profile too much on this issue, - although this maybe too late! OR we really get a strong case together and represent ourselves to the right dept/council - although it does sound like some of you have tried this?. Also... from what I can find out the fine for breaking any by law is £100, has anyone found a precedent on this subject? I've searched the internet, but nothing.

Anyway the debate seems to be gathering momentum so hopefully we will get somewhere soon.

TonyS

Also... from what I can find out the fine for breaking any by law is £100,

And a criminal record which can be a real downer.

Byelaws are supposed to be used to address a local problem/behaviour, when this one was sealed and confirmed by DEFRA (if not it's not worth the paper it's written on) the council/conservators basically shafted 15% of the population (number of people recorded in 2000 and something as having one or more off road cycling trips) whilst providing 130km of off road trails to the equine users (5% for same survey) for a moderate £80 pa fee (which is rarely paid by all accounts). I don't see they stand up under the current test (see http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countr ... s/bcr1.pdf) but the cost of challenging established Byelaws is more than it's worth IMHO. Help the CTC and others campaign for the Scottish system were bikes are allowed on all RoW.

Remember the area is owned by East Sussex County Council and 'managed' by the Ashdoen Forest Conservatores under the Ashdown Forest Act 1974. Several views seems to exist about the exist state of affairs ranging from outright hatred of MTB to a willingness to enter dialog. The latter means keeping goodwill by not breaking the Byelaws and staying to the (limited) bridleway in this area. Contact they guys at www.daysofspeed.com for more information as they have several routes around the area and their site has more detail about the MTB issue.

In the mean time there is some new 'permissive' bridleway to the west of the Forest area, starting at West Hoathly and finishing at Stone Hill rocks. The area is managed by FC who are generally supportive of MTBers as long as you stay to the trails. If you want more detail drop me a PM




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mudslinger

There is a group on Facebook promoting MTB on Ashdown Forest. I don't know if the people behind it are the same people as on here but it would make sense to unify.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=12043864543

LegaliseBikingonAshdown

Hi,

There is going to be an event called THE BIG PUSH on the 20th July 2008 at Kingstanding car Park Ashdown Forest.

EVERYONE is welcome to attend. We will all push our bikes round as this is legal. Everyone is invited. Kids, Girlfriends, Wives, Dogs, even the Mother in Law. !

Come and show your support .

Thank You.

GhallTN6

http://www.daysofspeed.com/Images/Big_push.jpg

The more people the better!