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PTP 08

iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
edited February 2008 in Pro race
I know we said we were going to form a calender roughly based on that 07 PT, but has anyone had any thoughts?

Are we going to include the Tour Down Under? Or include the first real race of the season (Het Volk) and bin some of the rubbish stage races no one cares about?

Olympics in or out?

Worlds in or out?
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

Posts

  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    iainf72 wrote:
    I know we said we were going to form a calender roughly based on that 07 PT, but has anyone had any thoughts?

    Are we going to include the Tour Down Under? Or include the first real race of the season (Het Volk) and bin some of the rubbish stage races no one cares about?

    Olympics in or out?

    Worlds in or out?

    I would like that we can mix up the Pro Tour with the old UCI classification of the 80s-90s...that would be my ideal, and true stalwarts will rise to the top :D ...or scrap the PTP and move to a UCI classification...would be a bit busy as we'd need to be on the ball every single day for races happening
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,490
    My two pence worth:

    IN - World's and Olympics (men's road only, incl. Time trials), maybe Het Volk and a couple of other biggish non-PT one dayers (1.HC).

    Out - Poland, Eneco, Eindhoven TT. Maybe one of Catalunya, Pais Vasco and Tirreno Adriatico.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Dave_1 wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    I know we said we were going to form a calender roughly based on that 07 PT, but has anyone had any thoughts?

    Are we going to include the Tour Down Under? Or include the first real race of the season (Het Volk) and bin some of the rubbish stage races no one cares about?

    Olympics in or out?

    Worlds in or out?

    I would like that we can mix up the Pro Tour with the old UCI classification of the 80s-90s...that would be my ideal, and true stalwarts will rise to the top :D ...or scrap the PTP and move to a UCI classification...would be a bit busy as we'd need to be on the ball every single day for races happening

    Ooh, can we include the UCI 2.2 races too? I have a dead cert for this year's Tour du Cameroon!

    Seriously though, I think picking winners in races like the TDU and the Tour of Langkawi is virtually impossible. The big teams don't care and the smaller teams are almost unknown quantities. Who would have got Karl Menzies and Anthony Charteau last year? You may as well pick names out of a hat (which judging by the 2nd half of last year would have got me more points).

    I think we should start with Het Volk and only do the big races.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I'd be supportive of removing Catalunya.

    T-A and Pais Vasco at least get onto the TV and get decent fields.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    I think we should boot out any race without long prestige history then...no dodgy new classics or Eneco tours...no unknown 'tours' ...simply the prestige early season stage races which are 3-Paris Nice and Tirreno, Crit International, monuments, grand tours and the 3 big prep stage races for them-Romandie, Dauphine and Suisse..then post TDF ....Lombardy, worlds..not PAris Tours as it in my book is another invented big race...not near a monument in my book..merely a bunch sprint and a boring event...leave everything else out e.g. TDU. I'd be in favour of Het Volk be included ahead of Paris Tour as it is worth a lot more than a TDU in my book , no Tours of California or Georgia
  • calvjonescalvjones Posts: 3,850
    Dave_1 wrote:
    I think we should boot out any race without long prestige history then...no dodgy new classics or Eneco tours...no unknown 'tours' ...simply the prestige early season stage races which are 3-Paris Nice and Tirreno, Crit International, monuments, grand tours and the 3 big prep stage races for them-Romandie, Dauphine and Suisse..then post TDF ....Lombardy, worlds..not PAris Tours as it in my book is another invented big race...not near a monument in my book..merely a bunch sprint and a boring event...leave everything else out e.g. TDU. I'd be in favour of Het Volk be included ahead of Paris Tour as it is worth a lot more than a TDU in my book , no Tours of California or Georgia

    I think it would be a fundamental error to enter any subjective debate bout the quality of races. I would include the whole pro tour 2007 vintage, plus Lankgawi & TDU and WRR & Olympics inc TTs (scored as monuments).

    It's not fair that someone who (say) chose Nibali or Schumacher for ENECO cos the know a fair bit no longer get the chance to score extra points over those who can only be @rsed researching the 'big ones'). Anyone who doesn't want to bother with the crappy stuff, doesn't have to do they? Anyway, Its 100% up to afx :oops:

    [rushes off to look up Lankgawi in Atlas only to realise he can't even spell it]
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • richaricha Posts: 1,633
    I would be interested in joining in this year.

    I think the starting point should be how many days of racing everyone wants to get involved in pundit-ing. i.e. if it is 300 then all of the above could apply. If 100ish then it would be grand tours plus monuments, etc. [It would be great to have a 'fixture list'].

    I like the idea of the well known events populated with names. I think that these events work well. The beginners (me) have a 'name' to punt for... The experienced (you) have the insight to be able to make informed choices... 'Lesser' events might be a bit random and therefore less rewarding.
    Rich
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    edited January 2008
    OK I've taken a look at the race calendar from next year and come up a list of the races that have been mentioned so far. It's not a final list, just something to aid the discussion a bit more. Some races obviously need to go, but if anyone has any suggestions for ones I've missed, I'd like to hear that too.
    Feb  9-17 Tour de Langkawi ?????
        17-24 - Tour of California ?????
    
    Mar     1 - Het Volk
         9-16 - Paris-Nice
        12-18 - Tirreno-Adriatico ?????
           22 - Milan-San Remo
        29-30 - Criterium International ?????
    
    Apr     6 - Tour of Flanders
         7-?? - Tour of the Basque Country ?????
            9 - Gent-Wevelgem
           13 - Paris-Roubaix
           20 - Amstel Gold Race
           23 - La Fleche Wallone
           27 - Liege-Bastogne-Liege
        29- 4 - Tour de Romandie ?????
    
    May 10- 1 - Giro d'Italia
        19-25 - Volta a Catalunya ?????
    
    Jun  8-15 - Dauphine Libere
        14-22 - Tour de Suisse
    
    Jul  5-27 - Tour de France
    
    Aug     2 - Clasica San Sebastian
            9 - Olympic RR ?????
           13 - Olympic ITT ?????
        20-27 - Eneco Tour ?????
           25 - GP Plouay ?????
        29- 6 - Deutschland Tour ?????
        30-21 - Vuelta a Espana
    
    Sep 15-21 - Tour of Poland ?????
           24 - Worlds ITT ?????
           27 - Worlds RR ?????
    
    Oct    12 - Paris-Tours ?????
           18 - Giro di Lombardia
    

    Things to consider:

    Coverage Live TV or web streaming is better. Langkawi and Catalunya are at a big disadvantage here.

    Quality of field / competition GP Plouay and Eneco Tour are pretty duff. California and Criterium International are not / were not Pro Tour, but have a lot of big name riders.

    Timing Overlapping races usually get a lot fewer entrants. Catalunya was what, 3 pages long last year for a 7 day race? Eneco Tour is not a great race, but is at a quiet time and gets a lot of entries.

    Out of that lot I would start with California, and dump Catalunya, Plouay and Poland (I didn't even include the Eindhoven TTT in the first place).

    [Added San Sebastian]
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Looks good to me. Did you leave out San Sebastian on purpose?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    iainf72 wrote:
    Looks good to me. Did you leave out San Sebastian on purpose?

    Oops, missed that one!
  • calvjonescalvjones Posts: 3,850
    afx237vi wrote:
    OK I've taken a look at the race calendar from next year and come up a list of the races that have been mentioned so far. It's not a final list, just something to aid the discussion a bit more. Some races obviously need to go, but if anyone has any suggestions for ones I've missed, I'd like to hear that too.
    Feb  9-17 Tour de Langkawi ?????
        17-24 - Tour of California ?????
    
    Mar     1 - Het Volk
         9-16 - Paris-Nice
        12-18 - Tirreno-Adriatico ?????
           22 - Milan-San Remo
        29-30 - Criterium International ?????
    
    Apr     6 - Tour of Flanders
         7-?? - Tour of the Basque Country ?????
            9 - Gent-Wevelgem
           13 - Paris-Roubaix
           20 - Amstel Gold Race
           23 - La Fleche Wallone
           27 - Liege-Bastogne-Liege
        29- 4 - Tour de Romandie ?????
    
    May 10- 1 - Giro d'Italia
        19-25 - Volta a Catalunya ?????
    
    Jun  8-15 - Dauphine Libere
        14-22 - Tour de Suisse
    
    Jul  5-27 - Tour de France
    
    Aug     2 - Clasica San Sebastian
            9 - Olympic RR ?????
           13 - Olympic ITT ?????
        20-27 - Eneco Tour ?????
           25 - GP Plouay ?????
        29- 6 - Deutschland Tour ?????
        30-21 - Vuelta a Espana
    
    Sep 15-21 - Tour of Poland ?????
           24 - Worlds ITT ?????
           27 - Worlds RR ?????
    
    Oct    12 - Paris-Tours ?????
           18 - Giro di Lombardia
    

    Things to consider:

    Coverage Live TV or web streaming is better. Langkawi and Catalunya are at a big disadvantage here.

    Quality of field / competition GP Plouay and Eneco Tour are pretty duff. California and Criterium International are not / were not Pro Tour, but have a lot of big name riders.

    Timing Overlapping races usually get a lot fewer entrants. Catalunya was what, 3 pages long last year for a 7 day race? Eneco Tour is not a great race, but is at a quiet time and gets a lot of entries.

    Out of that lot I would start with California, and dump Catalunya, Plouay and Poland (I didn't even include the Eindhoven TTT in the first place).

    [Added San Sebastian]

    I second afx suggestion as above; from California to the Leaves, dumping the doper-fest, untelevised-Plouay and can't even be arsed to give it a nickname-Poland. All in favour say 'aye' and we can start reading the training dairies on CN to plot our picks :D
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • Damn the TTT is the easiest points all year, just three little letters...CSC :D

    Think starting with California is a good bet and not including Poland or Langkawi. I'd vote for keeping ENECO, Catalunya and Plouay though. How about adding the Tour of Britain in place of Poland?

    I shall start my training at once.
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    I'm a fan of the Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. Proper racers take it seriously and it along with Het Volk signals the real start of the season for me.

    Milano-Torino and Paris-Bruxelles are also worth considering
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • calvjonescalvjones Posts: 3,850
    Timoid. wrote:
    I'm a fan of the Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. Proper racers take it seriously and it along with Het Volk signals the real start of the season for me.

    Milano-Torino and Paris-Bruxelles are also worth considering

    Yeah but we can't throw out stuff because it gets no media coverage then include Paris Bruxelles, surely?

    I am also assuming afx wants to continue with some sort of life outside PTP?
    ___________________

    Strava is not Zen.
  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    I'll go along with whatever is decided.
    I wouldnae mind seeing Tour Down Under included as I reckon it'll be a nice wee start for some of the big teams. And get me some interest in the cold of January.
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,706
    As the reigning champion ( :wink: ) I think I'd prefer to see a reduced calendar next year as a lot of the time I felt I was just guessing on some inconsequential stage race in Spain, the low countries or Poland as it ground on.

    I'm sure we could put together an interesting calendar that still tested one's punditry skills through the course of a season but didn't burden afx with a ton of work. Something like this;

    March

    Het Volk
    Paris-Nice
    Milan-San Remo
    Criterium International

    April

    Flanders
    Gent-Wevelgem
    Roubaix
    Amstel
    Fleche Wallone
    Liege-Bastogne-Liege

    May

    Tour of Romandie
    Giro d'Italia

    June

    Dauphine
    Tour de Suisse

    July

    Tour de France

    August

    San Sebastian
    Olympic Road Race
    Deutchsland Tour

    September

    Vuelta
    Worlds

    October

    Zurich (if it runs)
    Paris-Tours
    Lombardy

    That's much more manageable but still tests your skills.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    andyp wrote:
    As the reigning champion ( :wink: ) I think I'd prefer to see a reduced calendar next year as a lot of the time I felt I was just guessing on some inconsequential stage race in Spain, the low countries or Poland as it ground on.

    Or is it so you can go to "training camps"? :D
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • mangamanmangaman Posts: 704
    As the champion before last ( :wink: )

    I'd like to agree with andyp (us champs like to stick together)

    I think lesss is more in this case, and concentrating on races where we know the big teams are all trying to win makes things fairer

    Second rate stage races are often won on day one by a monster breakaway and a lot of the picking is just guessing


    I'd support all of Andy's list actually - all quality races and evenly spread
  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    mangaman wrote:
    I'd support all of Andy's list actually - all quality races and evenly spread

    You two get a room! :lol:
  • deejaydeejay Posts: 3,138
    Timoid. wrote:
    I'm a fan of the Kuurne-Brussels-Kuurne. Proper racers take it seriously and it along with Het Volk signals the real start of the season for me.

    Milano-Torino and Paris-Bruxelles are also worth considering

    Sorry but K-B-K is just a club run (lot of chatting) until the last hour and half and they get on the 3 cicuits but I love the BEER and atmosphere tho.!!!!!!!...A bit of anticlimax from HV.
    I'm booked up for another dose this year on Chunnel again after a rough crossing a few years ago.

    The Torino was part of the closing week of Italian races along with Tour of Piemonte and Lombardy but Torino is now a week after Het Volk. !!!!!!!

    So no comments on the Tour of Mediteranian or the Trophe Laigueglia, as I remember Rolf Sorensen saying that is where the season started.
    Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 1972
  • Hi folks.

    I'd go with whatever afx says.

    I'm sorry to say I'm going to have to give it a miss this year. I've got involved with running the triathlon ranking stuff for the scottish federaration, as well being on the organising committe for 5 events this year... and membership secretary for my club, etc, etc.

    Between that and my own training/racing I'm just not going to have time to do the ptp justice this year. I've even cancelled my Cycling Weakly subscription... I'll have to start buying 220 instead.

    Good luck folks!

    Cheers, Andy
  • GreggyrGreggyr Posts: 1,075
    Dear all
    I'm happy to go with afx....

    Good luck for '08

    Ride safely

    Greg
  • I'd like to see the Basque tour retained. It's a good race and the only stage race I can see in April.

    ENECO should stay too as there's nothing else going on then and it's a competitive race with a good chance to show some punditry skills.

    And Catalunya should go due to the clash with the Giro and Tirreno can go to due to clash with Paris-Nice (even if that would have lost me over 100 points last year, so I'm not just picking for my benefit).

    But I guess I'll play along whatever's decided - no toys being thrown out of prams here!

    Rule No.10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster
  • ... oh but I really can't be arsed with TDU, Langkawi and Cali!

    My tuppenth!

    Rule No.10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster
  • weyayemanweyayeman Posts: 1,141
    Hi first of all may I say thank you to AFX for the PTP and how much I enjoyed it.
    Just a thought on the new season,why not include the tour down under but just run it like the classics where you just pick the winner,instead of every stage.That way you still have the interest.I like to see to Het Volk and KBK 2 as the season starts to take shape.
    Hope I remember to enter every race this year,its great fun.
    How son yee divent need gaan doon the Pit,coz thas plenty coal in the coal hoose
  • mangamanmangaman Posts: 704
    Thought I'd give this a bump

    Pro-tour season up and running (sort of) and Het Volk approaching
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    So whose calendar are we using, mine on page 1 or andyp's above? Tour of Cali or Het Volk to start? Tour of Cali starts Sunday, so be quick - yes or no?
  • mangamanmangaman Posts: 704
    I'm happy to go with your calendar afx

    Thanks for all your effort - much appreciated
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Andyp's choices are pretty much same as mine...not sure I would have the Tour of Germany on as it is an invented big race, not a really big race,

    I vote no tours of cali or Georgia, but I will happily go with the good AFX on whatever he choses to include in PTP 08
  • Yup you're calendar looks good to me afx, I've been 'preparing' for the Tour of Cali just down the road in Mexico...er I mean the Dolomites.
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