Hamilton to Rock Racing

iainf72

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13825.0.html

Botero and Tyler.

They are officially team Evil now.

phil s

I would like to hear a statement from Andreu with his thoughts on why an unreformed drugs cheat should be allowed this chance.

hommelbier

According to an Italian news source (ANSA) quoting Ivan Fanini (owner of Amore & Vita) he may well be joined at Rock & Republic by Mario Cipollini.

"Initially he would only ride some criteriums, but if his form is good enough and he has the competitive desire he might even come over to Europe to race"

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13825.0.html

Botero and Tyler.

They are officially team Evil now.

am not so bothered...he's wrecked his career. What he has left are the ashes of his career and he won't be able to blood dope so easily. Let him back I say. He's not a kashekin type in my book.....all he's done is lie about blood doping and until proof is demonstrated that he doped with Fuentes , he should be allowed back.

andyp

I rather hoped we'd seen the back of the righteous bunny loving mom's apple pie eating wholesome fraud.

Same on Rock and Road for being so desperate for publicity.

LangerDan

In a way, I'd rather have them where I can see them - "inside the tent" and all that. Theres nothing stopping someone like Tyler running a team or becoming a coach / advisor. At least as a rider he can be tested.

On a business level, I'm developing a grudging regard for Michael Ball. They are becomong the Millwall of cycling - No-one likes us, we don't care. For a fraction of the cost of the "Next Big Thing" on a Pro-Tour team he has gained massive publicity which must surely bring out the punters for the races, particulary if he continues to paint the picture of persecution by the regulatory authorities - "The Character Assassination of Tyler Hamilton by the Coward Pat McQuaid".

His sporting ethics still stink, though.

iainf72

phil s wrote:

I would like to hear a statement from Andreu with his thoughts on why an unreformed drugs cheat should be allowed this chance.

There is a rumour he might be getting the sack from Rock....

We shall see.

dave_1

Tyler has effectively been banned for 3 years now..Sept 04 to Start of 08......he lost 2007 , so really...it may as well be like a lifeban...he's history as a garnd tour winning force in cycling. I don't mind seeing him back as I want to see how he riders in the cleaner era..e.g. maybe was a decent ike rider after all? :?

vermooten

From VeloNews:

Dear VeloNews,
How is Rock Racing's decision to hire Tyler Hamilton really all that different than Slipstream hiring David Millar? Both are convicted dopers, yet Millar has been lifted up to this golden boy status on his new dream team, while Tyler remains smeared with blood.

Maybe their post-doping actions have been slightly different, but let's not lose perspective here, both were dopers, and both are riding again. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
Casey Weaver
Long Beach, California

Good point. I can think of two reasons why it's different:

1. Millar owned up (albeit after he was caught?), Hamilton hasn't AFAIK.
2. Rock Racing's owner's approach is aggressive and doesn't have an anti-doping flavour, Slipstream's does; so I reckon that RR's owner would turn a blind eye to doping if it was getting results.

I write this as one who isn't a fan of Mr Millar whatsoever.

dave_1

Millar owned up cause he was in the can with the cops threatening to take him up to Paris...he could have done a Basso otherwise...IMO we can't strongly differentiate between Millar and Hamilton...as Tyler didn't have the cops interogating him in a jail cell with threat of being taken to a longer custody in Paris which was what Millar said he was threatened with

Kléber

Millar owned up and then sung like a canary, grassing up team mates and blowing the cover of the Euskatel team dealer, sorry team doctor. And good for him. He might be a bit sanctimonious at times, but that's TV soundbites for you. Only a minority of riders weren't doping, the whole system is rotten and those who can face up to their problems and then openly condemn it are the (relative) good guys. Everyone should get a second chance and be able to talk freely.

But many aren't so liberated. Most riderslive in denial, from Hamilton to Basso to Vinokourov etc, these are the bad guys.

As for Rock and Road, it's meant to have a dangerous image. But whilst fashion is all about image, I worry that the perception of "bad guys" will be, literally, more than skin deep and that riders will be adopting old habits to survive.

Ultimately, so long as pro cycling as a whole hasn't blown up, we'll see who's in the game in a few years time, if Rock and Road has vanished, if Vaughters is still evangelising.

iainf72

Interesting comment in the Guestbook section of Tyler's website

Met Frankie in SF during Tour of CA and he really wanted to see you back racing.

cerireid

Difficult isn't it? Ethically, I feel someone like Hamilton, who dopes and dopes and dopes, then lies and lies and lies, should be excluded from the sport. But to reduce doping, we have to allow people to refrom themselves. If not, then we encourage the fanciful Landis/Hamilton type defences, as there's no downside to fighting and denying any drug test results; and we discourage riders who know they've made a mistake from ever coming forward - we force them to continue the code of silence in the peloton.

You can't force people to confess after a positive test, otherwise you'll occasionally force a confession from an innocent person, won't you? And a forced confession is worth very little, anyway. We'd like genuine contrition - which Millar really seems to have shown (I'm a Scot, though, so I may be biased).

The most annoying thing to me is that the US cycling public (I guess I mean people who watch Versus?) seem to buy into the crap that guilty US riders sell them. Stuff they wouldn't believe for a second it it came from a European rider. (Basically: I'm too honest to cheat, so your tests must be wrong.).

off the back

Am I missing something or is tyler liable to be kicked out of teh sport for good if he takes out a licence. He served his ban for blood doping at Tour Of Spain but was linked to puerto. Can US cycling not open an investigation (stop him from competing) and force him to do a DNA on the bags of blood ...?

off the back

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10868.0.html

What was the outcome of this ....?

iainf72

off the back wrote:

Am I missing something or is tyler liable to be kicked out of teh sport for good if he takes out a licence. He served his ban for blood doping at Tour Of Spain but was linked to puerto. Can US cycling not open an investigation (stop him from competing) and force him to do a DNA on the bags of blood ...?

No. The evidence (ie. blood bags) is not available for testing or for usage in sporting sanctions.

Ullrich's blood was tested against the bags because of a criminal case.

cerireid

Dunno, on either count. A bit of googling didn't turn up any USADA action/decision about the Puerto evidence. I don't know if any of the blood is thought to be his?

Can you imagine the screeching, even if DNA evidence results in identiying blood as Hamilton's? It would be another round of 'how beastly Europeans are victimizing poor US riders'. Obviously the evidence would be faked, or the blood would have been tampered with, or the dog ate his homework...

I'm guessing that he knows that there isn't blood in the hands of the authorities - as a private citizen he can probably prevent them getting DNA, but as a rider he can (probably?) be compelled to.

Maybe someone out there has more than just opinion and speculation to go on?

iainf72

cerireid wrote:

Dunno, on either count. A bit of googling didn't turn up any USADA action/decision about the Puerto evidence. I don't know if any of the blood is thought to be his?

Can you imagine the screeching, even if DNA evidence results in identiying blood as Hamilton's? It would be another round of 'how beastly Europeans are victimizing poor US riders'. Obviously the evidence would be faked, or the blood would have been tampered with, or the dog ate his homework...

I'm guessing that he knows that there isn't blood in the hands of the authorities - as a private citizen he can probably prevent them getting DNA, but as a rider he can (probably?) be compelled to.

Maybe someone out there has more than just opinion and speculation to go on?

Okay, here's the facts. The blood bags are not available for testing in sporting cases. End of. That's why only Ullrich's have been tested because it was a criminal case. Tyler doesn't have to do anything because it's not currently possible to test again the blood. Ditto using any of the evidence from the case.

Maybe this will change but I very much doubt it.

I'm sure the USADA have got a case file from the UCI but decided not to go after it. And I think the USADA are one of the best ADA's out there and are probably more equipped than most to deal with Puerto type cases. But if a judge says "you can't use the evidence", what are you going to do?

I'm not sure there ever was any blood which is supposed to be Tyler's from Puerto - I know there were documents detailing when to take blood / drugs but I can't see blood bags hanging around for a couple of years.

off the back

Thanks Iain

What made Basso crumble and incriminate himself ..? Certainly wasn't his conscious given his pathetic excuse?

Hamilton is past it as an athlete - watching him last year in races he was way down. But I would not like to see him back in the peleton given his strong links to puerto. I know that it is not case proven but we have seen previous nicknames been correct. It is not rocket science ........ now if only we could work out who the mysterious "Valv" character is....no sorry cant think of anyone!

iainf72

off the back wrote:

Thanks Iain

What made Basso crumble and incriminate himself ..? Certainly wasn't his conscious given his pathetic excuse?

It was his conscious to a degree. The net was closing with CONI and with the big races refusing to take Puerto suspects it made his life difficult. If someone like Basso can't ride grand tours then he may as well quit.

New interview with him

http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2007/ ... asso_dec07

As for his excuse - He will be welcomed back to cycling (probably to Barloworld). Pat Sinkewitz will not. Ivan did the intelligent thing in the current climate - You get nothing for fessing up properly.

mtb_roadie

Tyler is not listed as a rider on the rockracing website

http://rockracing.com/api/Index.cfm/cms ... eam-Staff/

iainf72

mtb_roadie wrote:

Tyler is not listed as a rider on the rockracing website

http://rockracing.com/api/Index.cfm/cms ... eam-Staff/

No but when the owner confirms it, then it's a done deal, eh?

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13826.0.html

cerireid

Thanks for the summary of the legal position, Iain. It still staggers me that there isn't any way of bringing Hamilton to book, but that's life, I guess. Hopefully he's one of the last of a dying breed... (or is that just wishful thinking?).

How an athlete who presented 4 different positive doping samples in 1 year can continue to strut around proclaiming his innocence (and apparently be believed by some people) is beyond me. And he's got someone else's Olympic gold...

On the suject of Hamilton going to Rock Racing - their website features this year's team, so we wouldn't expect Hamilton to be on it, but the 2008 team is here: http://www.velobios.com/teams.rockracing2008.htm
- I'm guessing it is based on information coming directly from the team.

Martin Van Nostrand

cerireid wrote:

Dunno, on either count. A bit of googling didn't turn up any USADA action/decision about the Puerto evidence. I don't know if any of the blood is thought to be his?

Can you imagine the screeching, even if DNA evidence results in identiying blood as Hamilton's? It would be another round of 'how beastly Europeans are victimizing poor US riders'. Obviously the evidence would be faked, or the blood would have been tampered with, or the dog ate his homework...

I'm guessing that he knows that there isn't blood in the hands of the authorities - as a private citizen he can probably prevent them getting DNA, but as a rider he can (probably?) be compelled to.

Maybe someone out there has more than just opinion and speculation to go on?

The OP case is in limbo because at the time of the doping, this was not against the law in Spain, so while evidence exists with Hamilton's codename in ledger books (his famous dog's name), the evidence is not in the hands of the UCI. That's why Astana dumped him, while the UCI has done nothing. If the Spanish courts don't follow through, the evidence will never be turned over to the UCI. The problem is some major Spanish footballers involved in this, so politics are coming into play.

A colleague of mine at MIT was one of a few that championed the theoretical idea that Hamilton may have naturally heterologous blood due to the vanishing twin syndrome. While theoretically possible, it would have been really cool if they could prove this. Hamilton used these scientists and their reputations as his defense. Hamilton was asked to provide blood samples for testing over 6-9 months, to monitor his blood antigens and prove that he may have a transient heterologous blood cell population. The science behind this was excellent, but Hamilton then backed off and would not allow this testing. He left some major reputations out in the wind.

Blood PCR testing could definitely prove without a doubt guilt or innocence for riders associated with OP, but NONE have agreed to let them selves be exonerated by providing a blood sample. Bettini is another one who refuses to give DNA.

Regardless, Hamilton is now 37 and without doping will likely not even finish a major tour. I'll be glad to see him enter the broom wagon.

cerireid

Am I right in thinking that the chimera/vanishing twin defence disappears as soon as you have one definitively natural blood sample from an individual (and it proves to have no foreign cells)?

Or, to put it another way, if you have ever passed a blood test for homologous blood doping, you can never use the vanishing twin excuse for any future failed test?

I guess that would explain why he backed away from the MIT guys ...

It would also mean that the vanishing twin defence could only be used in the first season the test was introduced ... as indeed it was.

iainf72

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

Blood PCR testing could definitely prove without a doubt guilt or innocence for riders associated with OP, but NONE have agreed to let them selves be exonerated by providing a blood sample. Bettini is another one who refuses to give DNA.

Except the blood is not available for testing.

Bettini said he would provide a DNA sample as part of an investigation. I think his beef was with generally taking DNA samples which is completely understandable.