fore - aft- advice

tobciocc

I recently did the full cyclefit position analysis in london and am struggling to get comfortable with the position I've been given. The main problem is the fact they've moved my saddle hugely forwards so I'm 8.7 cms behind the BB, trouble is I'm now running a 140 stem and have bad backache as I'm too close to the bars in my opinion. I'm wondering if the 8.7cms has a limit like within 1 cms of 8.7, or does it just have to be bang on.

I have emailed personaly the chap at cyclefit but got no response. I'm only 6ft 3ins and have had to buy an enormous frame to try and accomadate the new position, thus far the problems i was trying to solve have worsened.

Any advice is welcomed.

robbarker

I had a quick look at your previous posts - are you running this sort of frame?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=15558

If so, a 61cm seat tube length and 57.5 top tube is not at all excessive for a 6'3" rider, assuming you're reasonably proportionate. In fact I'd have said the top tube length was less than I'd expect on a 61 road frame, so it's not all that suprising that you have a 140 stem.

If you're not comfy at the moment you have three sensible options as I see it:

1. Soldier on with your curent position and see if you start to find it more comfortable as you get fitter and more flexible. Stretch out well after a ride - particularly your hamstrings and lower back.

2. You presumably payed an arm and a leg for the bike fit, so hassle them until they have you back in and get a position you find comfortable. They may have you in triathlon style saddle-forward position which is great if you have to run off the bike, but not something that roadies tend to go for.

3. (What I'd do) Record your position accurately - see here for how to do it:

http://www.parktool.com/repair/readhowto.asp?id=130

Then get the turbo trainer out and make some adjustments - one parameter at a atime - to see what works for you. You can always get back to the cycle-fited position if you want to.

You might want to try a closer and higher bar position - a 130 15 degree rise stem would achieve this, as would raising your stem if you are able to - that's if you have one or more spacers above the stem.

A good club coach will be able to help - if you join one of the larger road clubs there is likely to be one who is happy to help if you stick around for a bit.

tobciocc

Well the top tube measurement is 57.5 virtual and 59.5 actual which was a good reason why I bought it. My previous frame was 58 actual and I was running a 120 stem with the seat pulled right back. Thanks for your advice.

John.T

Is the 8.7 cm the distance that the front of your saddle is behind the vertical line from the BB. Also do you sit back on the saddle or perch on the front. This distance is fairly average for a taller rider. I am 5' 10" and mine is about there. I run a 55.7 top tube with a 120mm stem. Are your bars lower than before. All this can affect your back but a forward or lower position usually gives you arm ache first. Try moving the saddle back 1cm, then 2. Flip the stem if it will. Note any changes you make so you can reverse them.
As Robbarker says, get back on to the bikefit people and tell them your problem.

tobciocc

The bars are much higher now, the previous drop between top of saddle and bars was 13cm. Currently its 5.5cms and feels much too conservative, I've had to flip the stem to achieve that along with 5cms of spacers. Also previously I was 11.1cm behind the centre of the BB.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking cyclefit as it obviousy works for lots of people. I'm just after advice as I've actually worstened my problem with this rather conservative setup. Mainly that its ok to deviate between 1-2cms away from the recomended fore-aft position.

I do feel like I'm perched too far forwards

Blonde

I would suggest that the position of the saddle has nothing to do with the ideal reach to the bars. Rather, the fore/aft position of the saddle is about getting you in the 'right' position relative to the bottom bracket, so it is probably about right in terms of the angles your knees make when pedaling. Can you fit a longer stem? Especially if your stem is now raised so that you are effectively not reaching as far as before. The handle bar higher up but further away works better than lower and nearer because you wont be 'hunching' your back or craning your neck upwards so much. The back will be almost flat which is better for aerodynamics, pedalling efficiency and your general back health. It is also much easier to engage the abdominal muscles when the back is straight. In terms of the 'lowness' of the position, there is little difference - the effect is similar but you wont be straining any back muscles or pinching nerves to achieve the same result. The only problem I have had with it is that keeping a very straight back involves me sitting on delicate bits rather than tucking my pelvis under to protect them (and thus hunching my back) If it doesn't effect you in that way I'd suggest this position is worth trying with a longer stem. I wonder if your frame size is a bit too small in the top tube? A longer top tube would mean you'd be comfy with your current stem. That's the problems with trying to retro-fit a bike you already have. If it's not big enough to allow sufficient adjustment, you will struggle to really replicate the measurements you've been given.

John.T

Blonde. You can not get much longer than a 140mm stem and even that would affect the steering somewhat.
tobciocc. I would suggest you resort to the old 'knee over pedal splindle' check. I know that this is not as popular as it was but it is a good place to start setting a position. As I said earlier, record the position of everything that bikefit set, then sit on the bike wearing your normal cycling shoes and move the saddle until the bottom of your knee cap is vertically above the pedal spindle. Then set the bars to what feels comfortable while keeping your back as straight as is comfortable. You should always set the saddle position relative to the BB and for height before anything else.

tobciocc

Well the frame I have I bought specifically for its larger size, as in a top tube of 59.5. I'm currently using a massive 140 stem with that. I don't think frames get much longer than 59.5 and its not as if I'm a giant at 6ft 3ins.

Once again, thanks for your helpfull comments

Tom Butcher

It's the virtual top tube measurement that is the relevant one though isn't it.

tobciocc

Yes the horizontal one which is 59.5, thats long isn't it. With a 140 stem flipped and 5cm of spacers it looks a bit daft, and feels very flexy. The only frame I've seen with a longer top tube is one of the Kinesis Racelight range.

John.T

The top tube is not especialy long. It sits just below the Trek Madone Performance fit 2008 62cm which is 59.8cm and below the 61cm Specialised Roubaix at 60cm. These are all virtual sizes including the seat tube C to top. The head tubes on these are 230mm and 235mm to the Scotts 215mm so if you like a more upright position then 50mm of spacers is not excesive but getting that way. If you had no problems with your back before I would be tempted to move towards the old position to see if it is better.

nickwill

I think that this post illustrates the problem with programmes like cycle fit.
I was measured up on a jig by Paul Hewitt. This involved very fine adjustments of all the different parameters. How the position felt, was always taken into account, rather than just a theoretical position based on numbers. However complex a number based programme is, it can't allow for all the variables on a real body. This is where an expert, interactive fit from someone like Paul Hewitt is invaluable.

Tom Butcher

tobciocc wrote:

Yes the horizontal one which is 59.5, thats long isn't it. With a 140 stem flipped and 5cm of spacers it looks a bit daft, and feels very flexy. The only frame I've seen with a longer top tube is one of the Kinesis Racelight range.

I may be wrong but if the actual top tube is 59.5 then the horizontal measurement is the virtual one - which is 57.5? That's a bit on the short side for someone of your height I'd have thought - obviously it depends on your dimensions and other measurements but especially if you have the seat relatively far forward then at first sight it does sound unusual. Apologies if I've misinterpreted.

John.T

No Tom. The virtual top tube is usually longer due to the angle of the seat tube. On frames with a very sloping top tube this may not be the case. Just imagine where each tube would be on any frame and measure it.

Tom Butcher

I wasn't judging which was longer - just saying that the virtual top tube was the horizontal measurement. Tobciocc said it had a 57.5cm virtual top tube but then later said that it had a 59.5cm horizontal measurement.

Tom Butcher

tobciocc wrote:

Well the top tube measurement is 57.5 virtual and 59.5 actual which was a good reason why I bought it. My previous frame was 58 actual and I was running a 120 stem with the seat pulled right back. Thanks for your advice.

Right with you now John - sorry I was taking the above but yes you are right it's obviously a typo.

Tob - Having paid for the fit I'd still be tempted to stick with it for a while - not a lot of use I know but if you've been riding a while in the old position I wouldn't expect the new one to feel right straight off. Let us know how you get on anyway.

tobciocc

Sorry for the confusion chaps, but yes its 59.5 which is 1.5 more than my old frame.

I think your right about sticking with Cyclefits measurement, but the original point of the post was about whether I could/should move the saddle back to ease any backpain. The saddle feels too far forwards and I was thinking of maybe trying 9.2cms rather than the recomended 8.7cms behind the BB.

BTW the Sidas footbeds from Cyclefit are fantastic.

John.T

As long as you don't loose the cyclefit measurements you have nothing to loose by experimenting. See where your knee cap is relative to the pedal spindle with the pedal at 3 o'clock. For normal riding I would not want it to be in front of the spindle. As I said earlier record each change and how it felt and experiment. You can always go back to the cyclfit set-up.
Tom. Sorry I missed that post. I thought it was a typo at the time and forgot it was there.

bikeit65

Tobciocc i too had the Cyclefit experience, i set my bike up to the computer print out they give you and i kept with this setup for about seven weeks going cycling three times a week.
I can only say that i have never felt more uncomfortable on a bike. the saddle was moved back about 2.5cms and i had to get a smaller stem so i could get the reach right ,but my hands were in agony after 30 minutes on the bike,
i have since put the bike back to the way it was before the bike fit and the hand pain is gone.
The position they set my cleats at decreased the power, i felt ,so i have fiddled about with them also.
I too emailed J.... but as yet no reply.
One of the cyclefit technicians contacted me on another forum about posting inaccurate claims on the site, but i was only reporting what i was told buy their own technician.
Unlike you i cant get to London that easy as i live in N ireland i went there in the summer while i was on a few days holidays.
Keep in touch and let me know how you get on.

tobciocc

Hi Bikeit65 ... I don't really want to be critical of cyclefit as its not an exact science and the changes are a big leap.

Sorry to hear yours worked out so badly, what were the key differences then in how your postion difered from their recomendations?

bikeit65

Hi Tobciocc i am in no way being critical of Cyclefit, but i would have at least expected Ju....the technician who i was with answering my emails.
The changes i made were, moving the saddle back 2.5cm, and changing the stem from 11cms down to 8cms, i think i give the new position a fair bit of time so as i said before i gradually moved it back to where it was before i visited Cyclefit.
They also fitted shims to my shoes three on the left two on the right, as Ju.... felt my left leg was slightly shorter than my right leg.

tobciocc

Hi Bikit65

Agreed, I had one response to an email I sent them asking a question. I had a further question and no response this time. Maybe your expected to pay for a follow up consultation, not much of a duty of care really.

I had my saddle brought forwards from 11.1 behind the B/B to 8.7, I think this has helped in my pedaling style and delivery of power. I'm really just struggling with the reach and the recomendation tha the bars should be 5.5cms below the saddle, feels more like a mountain bike. Anyway, I need to give it a chance.