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are we been ripped off

giner1961giner1961 Posts: 135
edited December 2007 in Pro race
Yet another recall, this time by specialized for one of there helmets.

you have to wonder, a lot of manufactures charge a fortune for there products, helmets shoes, frames, you name it. And then when you get them the label inside says made in china or similar.

i'm sorry but it's about time we started boycoting these manufactures until such time that they actually make the items them selfes and not made in some far flung eastern country.

Posts

  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Welcome to the real world - most 'brands' these days are in fact 'marketing' companies, sourcing products at around the world for the lowest possible price - which these days means China. It's the same with vitually every products these days - even if your car was assembled in the UK, it probably comprises a whole lot of components made in the far east. The days of 'vertical integration' in industry are long gone and far too expensive in today's economic climate.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • MichuelMichuel Posts: 269
    Monty Dog wrote:
    Welcome to the real world - most 'brands' these days are in fact 'marketing' companies, sourcing products at around the world for the lowest possible price - which these days means China. It's the same with vitually every products these days - even if your car was assembled in the UK, it probably comprises a whole lot of components made in the far east. The days of 'vertical integration' in industry are long gone and far too expensive in today's economic climate.

    That still doesn't alter the fact that we're being ripped off.

    We're in a cycling culture where "conspicuous consumption" is the norm. Where riders try to improve their physical performance by buying exotic equipment. Where appearance is given a greater value than substance.
  • andy_wrxandy_wrx Posts: 3,396
    Michuel wrote:
    That still doesn't alter the fact that we're being ripped off.

    We're in a cycling culture where "conspicuous consumption" is the norm. Where riders try to improve their physical performance by buying exotic equipment. Where appearance is given a greater value than substance.

    That doesn't sound like 'being ripped off'

    It sounds more like 'being a mug'
  • mr_hippomr_hippo Posts: 1,051
    giner1961 wrote:
    Yet another recall, this time by specialized for one of there helmets.
    you have to wonder, a lot of manufactures charge a fortune for there products, helmets shoes, frames, you name it. And then when you get them the label inside says made in china or similar.
    i'm sorry but it's about time we started boycoting these manufactures until such time that they actually make the items them selfes and not made in some far flung eastern country.

    You saw the product and you liked it then you saw the price and decided to buy it; now where is the rip-off? Did you look on the packaging to see where it was made? Are only products from China subject to recall notices? Haven't British products ever been recalled?
    You mentioned Specialized helmets, these conform to British Standards - if they did not then they would not be on sale in the UK and are manufactured to Specialized specs. If your 'Made in China' but conforming to British Standards and company specs cost you £40, how much more would the same helmet cost if it were to be made in the UK and would you pay the extra cost?
  • MichuelMichuel Posts: 269
    andy_wrx wrote:
    That doesn't sound like 'being ripped off'

    It sounds more like 'being a mug'

    "Mugs" is a perjorative term for often very intelligent people.

    Rather rational value-based decision making is made difficult by media and tecnical/industry/supplier sources obscuring fundemental facts and exploiting emotional contra-factual arguments/biases for their own self-interest.

    There are a few who pierce through the pseudo advice which is proffered us. MTB riders in increasing numbers opt for simpler specs such as single speeds. Michael Hutchinson in his columns and book makes clear that performance and training rules are very simple and have been known for years. Obree similarly focuses on fundementals and contemptuous of cyclings decorative aspects.
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    What do you mean by being ripped-off? A product that sells for £100 retail in the UK, probably has an ex-factory cost of about £8-10 in China - but then goes through two-layers of distribution, shipping, vat and duty before it arrives in your LBS.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • MichuelMichuel Posts: 269
    Monty Dog wrote:
    What do you mean by being ripped-off? A product that sells for £100 retail in the UK, probably has an ex-factory cost of about £8-10 in China - but then goes through two-layers of distribution, shipping, vat and duty before it arrives in your LBS.

    It's clear in my text what I meant by "ripped off". Something far more fundemental than your example of high profit margins (which can be justified in certain circs eg pharmaceutical research gfor drug products).

    For example cyclists are ripped off by buying unneeded products which aren't relevent to their ultimate needs. It doesn't matter if they're high margin or low margin. My note was quite clear and I don't need to repeat it.
  • mr_hippomr_hippo Posts: 1,051
    Michuel wrote:
    My note was quite clear and I don't need to repeat it.

    About as clear as the driven snow! Do you belong to the BBB school of English? The OP is talking about price and you, I think, are talking about the power of advertising. I have never heard of anyone being forced into their LBS or anywhere else and being forcibly parted from their cash to buy a product that they do not want, have you?
  • MichuelMichuel Posts: 269
    mr_hippo wrote:
    Michuel wrote:
    My note was quite clear and I don't need to repeat it.

    About as clear as the driven snow! Do you belong to the BBB school of English? The OP is talking about price and you, I think, are talking about the power of advertising.

    Very roughly although I was talking more generally about information. I don't want to give an exhaustive list of examples but I'd cite hypothetical case of person with limited means (youngster, unwaged ...) attracted to cycling/racing but deterred by perceived need to buy high-priced bike etc so goes into running, jogging, football.... I'm saying his perception is ultimately formed by cycling industry/media which overhypes product.

    Maybe my answer is more appropriate in Campaign forum than here

    Giter1961 was talking about product quality and high margins.
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    I have a 2D helmet. It fits perfectly, is well ventilated, and has passed all the relevant standards. I've had several £50 to £80 helmets which I found myself giving up on after a few rides, because they were all uncomfortable. The 2D means I am now happy to wear a helmet. Which helmet is poor value, one that is expensive,fits properly and gets worn, or one that costs a little less and ends up in the cupboard?
    As regards the recall, it only applies to American spec helmets, and one would suspect is more a victim of the American litigation culture, than having any major fault.
  • peanutpeanut Posts: 1,373
    oh dear here we go again. It seems we can't have an informative discussion on this forum without someone making a personal attack on someone else because their views differ .
    If you want an argument or shouting match and feel the need to hurl insults at others I suggest you go down your local pub :roll:

    Incidentally, to be `ripped off' doesn't necessarily need to involve money or price :wink:
  • giner1961 wrote:
    Yet another recall, this time by specialized for one of there helmets.

    you have to wonder, a lot of manufactures charge a fortune for there products, helmets shoes, frames, you name it. And then when you get them the label inside says made in china or similar.

    i'm sorry but it's about time we started boycoting these manufactures until such time that they actually make the items them selfes and not made in some far flung eastern country.

    Spesh DON'T make ANY of their products Bikes included so do you boycott them all. 90% of your car is outsourced so do you walk. Come to think of it your clothes and shoes are rarely made by the name in the label. Where do you stop.
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting
  • peanutpeanut Posts: 1,373
    giner1961 wrote:
    Yet another recall, this time by specialized for one of there helmets.

    you have to wonder, a lot of manufactures charge a fortune for there products, helmets shoes, frames, you name it. And then when you get them the label inside says made in china or similar.

    i'm sorry but it's about time we started boycoting these manufactures until such time that they actually make the items them selfes and not made in some far flung eastern country.

    Spesh DON'T make ANY of their products Bikes included so do you boycott them all. 90% of your car is outsourced so do you walk. Come to think of it your clothes and shoes are rarely made by the name in the label. Where do you stop.

    yes you are right but surely we must start somewhere or nothing will ever change. Hopefully lack of sales would filter back down the line to the manufacturers and hurt someone in the pocket where it counts.

    I'm an armchair critic but I have to admire those people that have started this huge eco movement from little beginnings like the lady who persuaded all the shops in her home town to use recyclable shopping bags ! I have a lot of respect for people like that. They make up for lazy barstewards like me :wink:
  • Smarties are now no longer being made in England, the factory in York is closing and 645 jobs with it, production is being moved to Germany.
    Are we therefor to boycott Smarties?, or is it OK because they're still being made in Europe? Who actually makes any cycling products in the UK? Raleigh still making bikes in Nottingham? Nope, shut years ago and the site demolished and student flats built there. Or is is just items made in China we should boycott? Your helmet cost £100, would you buy it if it cost £150 due to extra production costs but was made in the UK, Europe or America?
    Where's your car made, and not just assembled?
    We have a global economy, your item made in China is providing work for them making it, work for someone elsewhere designing it, work for others marketing it, distributing it and work for someone selling it to you. All likely in different countries.
    Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.
  • phelimphelim Posts: 91
    to say we are being ripped off is bullsh*t. do u want to pay for a bike that is made in england, i think not as production & labour costs are too high which would have to be passed to the public, so it makes more sense to keep costs down have bikes made in the far east and pass the saving on to us.

    plus nobody forces u to buy a product of if u don't want it. :D
    pjmcg
  • I'm unclear as why you think we may be being ripped off. Because products are made in China?

    My brother is a clothing supplier and has all his garments made in the UK. He is constantly being asked to reduce his prices but cannot because he would have to resort to the Far East for manufacture and he really believes it is important to support the local community. He may indeed go bust with this attitude eventually, but for the moment his advantage is that if anyone wants a bespoke item they can have it the next day. Something very few companies can do because of foreign sourcing.

    Customers have suggested in the past that he is ripping them off because ASDA do something similar for much less.
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    I'm still trying to understand the original argument. We had someone on here the other week trying to make the same poorly-informed argument - but nobody's forcing you to buy the stuff and relative to income, everythings a darn site cheaper than 20 years ago. Years ago product recalls were rare because manufacturers had no decent quality assurance systems which meant that the product quality was inconsistent and there was little need to demonstrate control of their processes. You're also implying that foreign made products are somehow inferior - which shows both ignorance and arrogance. One of the reasons for the signifcant decline in the UK manufacturing was the fact that the products were rubbish, the factories poorly managed and chronic under-investment in new technologies. One of the appeals of cycling is that a lot of people in the industry still have a passion for the products and the sport. The scale isn't big enough to warrant the extortionate and exploitative manaufacturing of the likes of football and other sports kit.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • top_bhoytop_bhoy Posts: 1,423
    In some ways you are being forced to buy it - if I had a real choice, I wouldn't buy Chinese goods (and from one or two other countries) but so many things are made in these type of places now that its difficult to avoid it. The ethics of it all, etc, is a completely different argument to being ripped off.

    Now having been in Oz for near 2 years, seeing the cost of UK cycling goods is almost an envy, to the point that I think the stuff in the UK is good value now :D
  • ademortademort Posts: 1,924
    Hi Its presumed that you think that because this helmet was made in china that you feel it,s sub standard and sold at the rrp, this is what you mean by being ripped off.I suppose you feel that if the same helmet was made in the U.K. or A merica the standard of manufacture would be higher, and therefore no recall would (should) be required.During manufacture of anything ther are qualiy control checks carried out to ensure that the product is up to standard or meets clients requirements, however there can always be that (one) that slips through the system. It shouldn,t happen but it does. There are regular recalls for a wide variety of goods, car parts, foodstuffs,clothing e.t.c. and many are top well respected manufacturers. It,s something we have to live with. Higher wages are a major problem for manufacturing anything in the U.K. If some cycle parts or accesories were to be made in the U.K. there would be no guarantee that end product would be any better than what is produced in China and the price would certainly be higher. Greetings Ademort
    Merry Christmas everyone have a good day.
    ademort
    Chinarello, record and Mavic Cosmic Sl
    Gazelle Vuelta , veloce
    Giant Defy 4
    Mirage Columbus SL
    Batavus Ventura
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