Is there are forgiving hard tail (back end)
Celtic Dragon
Posts: 57
My GT Avalanche 2 got nicked recently so I'm shopping for the replacement.
1 think I did notice with the GT, my back didn't like the amount of rigidity of the frame.
My question is there a hardtail (sub 500) that has a forgiving tail?
1 think I did notice with the GT, my back didn't like the amount of rigidity of the frame.
My question is there a hardtail (sub 500) that has a forgiving tail?
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Comments
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this is going to sound a bit like im tying to cheat you as i have one for sale, but you cant go wrong with a full carbon framed bike (ive got a cape wrath for sale!!)
they are plenty stiff for good acceleration but the carbon material acts as a massive damper so it reduces trail buzz and you can remain seated over some relatively uncomfortable terrain. i got rid of my old p7 as i found it uncomfortable even though its made of steel but the wrath is a whole different ball game.
im open to offers but it is up for 500.0 -
Celtic Dragon wrote:My GT Avalanche 2 got nicked recently so I'm shopping for the replacement.
1 think I did notice with the GT, my back didn't like the amount of rigidity of the frame.
My question is there a hardtail (sub 500) that has a forgiving tail?
Hate to say it but you are looking for the "Holy Grail" and it's not for sale. Most bicycles
are made up of 2 triangles. These triangles are used because they form a stiff
unit with the least amount of weight. Key word being "stiff". "Forgiving" sounds to
me a lot like major manufacturer hype or load of s**t if you will. If you want forgiveness buy
a full suspension.
Dennis Noward0 -
Its not hype or BS.
Yes, triangles are used for the reason you state, however all materials flex under load. How much flex depends on the matieral used.
What I'm after is a frame that flexs more than the old GT.0 -
Sheepsteeths right carbon does have a certain amount of flex quite a few bikes on the market with carbon seatstays now both road and mtb my roadie mate seems to think that titanium is the answer to all your problems though! Saying that he does think ti is the answer to just about any question at the moment! lol0
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I think what he is trying to say mate is that a steel frame will flex more than alu., and as this other chap here rightly says carbon flexs more than anything else, except poss. Ti which is like building a bike out of platinum as far as a budget is concerned.
However, the difference is difficult to quantify not knowing how uncomfortable you find/ found the other materials in the first place? If it really was detracting from the ride then to be fair I personally don't think carbon will make that much difference? but if it is more of an irritation then carbon could be just what you are looking for? For example, I too have a really sore backside on the last couple of dales on the red route at Dalby Forest and it really really hurts but I still enjoy it all.
Try the carbon option and see. Lets be honest you'll know for definate if this doesn't cut the mustard."If you think straight enough, you can see round corners"0 -
sheepsteeth wrote:this is going to sound a bit like im tying to cheat you as i have one for sale, but you cant go wrong with a full carbon framed bike (ive got a cape wrath for sale!!)
they are plenty stiff for good acceleration but the carbon material acts as a massive damper so it reduces trail buzz and you can remain seated over some relatively uncomfortable terrain. i got rid of my old p7 as i found it uncomfortable even though its made of steel but the wrath is a whole different ball game.
im open to offers but it is up for 500.
What size is the frame Teeth? Can you ride aggressively on a full CF frame?
WOW!! easy's first post for like ages and its within seconds of mine!!! Alright mate?
I might fancy this carbon frame?
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from my experience, carbon is alot more comfortable that steel which is more comfy than alu.
alu is deliberately stiff as it means every ounce of energy you use will propel you forwards but in my opinion, going fast shouldnt mean you have to feel beaten up by your bike.
steel, when well made (most folks will agree a p7 is very well made) is designed to flex and therefore be more comfortable and whilst still being stiff enough to provide a direct drive, it should still dampen out trail buzz.
carbon fibre is designed to be stiff but also to act as a damper so the bike is more forgiving to ride. it is a common falousy that carbon fibre frame are always lighter than alu. carbon fibre tubes need to be wider to remain strong and sometimes this makes the frames just as heavy as an alu one. the difference is that carbon fibre frames are much more comfy to ride (and to be honest are often lighter than other materials)0 -
Personally I think there is a difference in frames, but the biggest difference must come from the tyres. I've had stiff ally hardtails (ID Mr Hyde) and steel (On-One 456) theres a definate springyness to steel- but its not suspension. Try something with room for a 2.3 or 2.4 tyre in the back- I've seen a few 456's go for under £500 on ebay, and would suggest that as a good all round steel hardtail.
If you want smoother riding without suspension tho' look at a 29er.0 -
the wrath is a size large i think, im 6 feet 1 and it fits me perfect, would fit someone an inch or so taller and definately an inch or two shorter.
i weigh in at a not particularly svelt 19 stone and find the bike is lovely to ride and as said before, much nicer than my p7 was.
i only used it for its designed purpose as a xc machine and didnt thrash it, but big boys put big stress on bikes and it handles it perfectly.0 -
"GT's mind starts to wander off into the carbon fibre land"
Why would a rider want this carbon fibre frame instead of an Orange Crush frame? If he is intending to ride quite hard?
Whats the travel allowance for the forks?
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Everyone seems to think that all these different materials deliver "vastly" different
ride qualties. I'm more than willing to listen to arguements that prove me wrong
but show me the science that proves all of these wild manufacturer's claims of
"smooth as silk ride" and the like. Prove to me that any one top of the line frame,
road or mountain, flexes, twists, or bends any more or less than another.
Real comfort is a Lazy Boy chair not a bicycle.
Dennis Noward0 -
This will suprise some: steel is stiffer than aluminium, not the other way round! Its how the frame is constructed, taking into account the materials properties which governs how stiff the overall structure is.
Dennis, I have seen testing (some results on the web) of road frames that measure flex and deflection. Whether this transfers into a more comfortable ride I am not sure, but frames do flex, that is for certain, some more than others.
What hasnt been mentioned is vibration damping. This is a little different from flex taking the sting out of a hit. Certain materials (such as a well laid up carbon frame) have inherant vibration absorbancy that can damp high frequency trail buzz. Certain butting techiques can hava a similar effect.
There are other factors too: the tyres, wheels, seatpost and saddle. A long seatpost can flex and absorb hits, and we know that tyres and wheels can. You have to view the package as a whole, and test out different combos and frames.0 -
Sheepsteeth, Think the Wrath is going to be too big for me, I'm looking for a 16" - 17" frame, but thank you.
Now the only question is do I buy 1, and ride it rarely over the next couple of months, or do I build my own and hav a nice shiny new machine for the spring mud
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If the latter, round what frame and forks?? The LBS recomended a Cove Handjob.
I only ride XC /AM so wouldn't even need huge travel.0 -
AM frames tend to be naturally stiffer as the whole structure is beefed up to cope with more stress. Most bikes around 500 quid tend to be built for XC and trails, bar a couple like the Sracen Mantra and Marin Northside.
Building your own is always more expensive, but can be more rewarding. The Cove frame isnt cheap! And once you put all the parts on you are looking at double your budget.0 -
I know in the long run, building my own will prove more expensive, but it does mean I don't have to compromise on components.
The cove frame I know is about £350 to start with, this was just 1 suggestion, I'm hoping members here can come up with more suggestions?
Also spreading the cost of a build is less painfull than 1 lump sum, but as you said I get the pleasure of building it.0 -
Handjob has got many good reviews. The tubing is good stuff, Columbus Nivacrom, though it is oversized and builds into a stiff frame. Another good steel frame is the rock Lobster Tig 853 - many good reviews as a hard riding trail machine. For a bit less you have the perennial favourite, the OnOne 456.0
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Thank you Supersonic The short list is growing. 0
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Get yourself a suspension seatpost You can get a post moderne bracer for about £50 you wont get the same comfort as a full suss bike but the post will take the sting out of a long ride I cant ride my bike without one Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap0
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supersonic wrote:Handjob has got many good reviews. The tubing is good stuff, Columbus Nivacrom, though it is oversized and builds into a stiff frame. Another good steel frame is the rock Lobster Tig 853 - many good reviews as a hard riding trail machine. For a bit less you have the perennial favourite, the OnOne 456.
Just looked at the On One, and had a heart attack!!! I was expecting 300 odd quid, not 150!!!0 -
stubs wrote:Get yourself a suspension seatpost You can get a post moderne bracer for about £50 you wont get the same comfort as a full suss bike but the post will take the sting out of a long ride I cant ride my bike without one
Suspention seatposts are crap, as there is no damping. The result is that you are still bouncing up and down 2 years after going over a bump. On a really bumpy trail it feels like you are riding a pogo stick, not a bike!
What sort of back problems do you have? If it is a jolting pain resulting from hitting big bumps, then the only way to prevent this is either ride standing up over bumps, or go full suss. Steel or carbon frames only reduce trail buzz, not the effects of a big hit.
Andy.0 -
andyturner28 wrote:stubs wrote:Get yourself a suspension seatpost You can get a post moderne bracer for about £50 you wont get the same comfort as a full suss bike but the post will take the sting out of a long ride I cant ride my bike without one
Suspention seatposts are crap, as there is no damping. The result is that you are still bouncing up and down 2 years after going over a bump. On a really bumpy trail it feels like you are riding a pogo stick, not a bike!
What sort of back problems do you have? If it is a jolting pain resulting from hitting big bumps, then the only way to prevent this is either ride standing up over bumps, or go full suss. Steel or carbon frames only reduce trail buzz, not the effects of a big hit.
Andy.
Some are damped. If only in a linited fashion.0 -
destroyer, the wrath is designed for a maximum 100mm fork and to be honest, if you are after something like a crush, i dont think the wrath will do the same job, it really is just an xc machine.
that said, it is a lovely machine and i dont mind keeping it.
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Get yourself an On One 456, they're a bargain. I've got a standard Inbred and it's a fantastic ride but I intend to swap to a 456 next year simply because it has a better climbing position - crucial for my steep local loops.I'm only concerned with looking concerned0
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This will suprise some: steel is stiffer than aluminium, not the other way round! Its how the frame is constructed, taking into account the materials properties which governs how stiff the overall structure is.
you hit the nail on the head, steel as a material is stronger, stiffer and less prone to stress fatigue than aluminium alloy , which means you can use less of it to build a frame
it all depends on how the material is used when the frame is designed...you can make a steel frame feel more "forgiving" because steel is stronger and stiffer you can use smaller diameter tubing with thinner walls which can feel more "springy"
with aluminium you generally have to use larger diameter tubes with thicker walls to get enough strength to make the aluminium frame durable, which can often result in a harsher ride than a steel frame
with carbon fibre it completely depends on how the frame / carbon layup is designed, carbon can be made very stiff for racing, or softer for trail ridingcheck out my riding - www.robcole.co.uk Banshee Factory Team rider, Da Kine UK Team rider, www.freeborn.co.uk www.eshershore.com0 -
jpembroke wrote:Get yourself an On One 456, they're a bargain. I've got a standard Inbred and it's a fantastic ride but I intend to swap to a 456 next year simply because it has a better climbing position - crucial for my steep local loops.
I'm going to How could I resist at that price?
Just wish they came in colours other than red!!!0 -
sheepsteeth wrote:destroyer, the wrath is designed for a maximum 100mm fork and to be honest, if you are after something like a crush, i dont think the wrath will do the same job, it really is just an xc machine.
that said, it is a lovely machine and i dont mind keeping it.
I was being tentative really. I just saw the full CF frame and thought OOh! that looks good!
Thanks for the info though Teeth.0 -
Celtic Dragon wrote:jpembroke wrote:Get yourself an On One 456, they're a bargain. I've got a standard Inbred and it's a fantastic ride but I intend to swap to a 456 next year simply because it has a better climbing position - crucial for my steep local loops.
I'm going to How could I resist at that price?
Just wish they came in colours other than red!!!
I actually quite like the red frame - that'd be my preferred option - but it's a shame that they aren't doing the light blue and 'that' green anymore. Also, looks like no frames in stock at the moment. May have to email Brant to find out when 456 frames are back in.I'm only concerned with looking concerned0 -
Dont knock suspension seatposts till youve tried one I do about 4,000 miles a year commuting and offroading and ive never had this pogo stick problem :shock: but then i read the instructions and tuned the seatpost for my weight using the different supplied elastomers.
You cant go wrong with an on-one frame they are well designed for british conditions ie loads of mud room I got my on-one scandal so clogged with clay that the gears wouldnt change and the brakes barely worked but the wheels kept turning I was carrying an amazing 10 pounds of muck Fig rolls: proof that god loves cyclists and that she wants us to do another lap0 -
Celtic Dragon wrote:Thank you Supersonic The short list is growing.
Some more up-market ones to consider -
Cotic Soul
Cotic BfE
Dialled Bikes Prince Albert
Chromag Samurai
Charge Duster
Best of all about these five? All bar the Chromag are British...0
