Vino has a moan

iainf72

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... dec13news2

I'd like to read the book when he writes it. I suspect the "whiter than white" reference must be the French teams.

DaveyL

He exhibits a state of denial not seen since Tyler Hamilton. These guys are all so out of touch with the reality of the pro race scene in 2007 that they may as well be inhabiting a parallel universe.

andyp

DaveyL wrote:

These guys are all so out of touch with the reality of the pro race scene in 2007 that they may as well be inhabiting a parallel universe.

What makes you so sure of this? It may be that we, the fans, are the ones so out of touch with reality that we are inhabiting a parallel, clean universe?

LangerDan

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/dec07/dec13news2

I'd like to read the book when he writes it. I suspect the "whiter than white" reference must be the French teams.

I think Vino is just going off on (another) one. There is some amount of ballcocks in that article. If Kazakhstan had an older brother, they'd probabaly be threatening us with that too.

In any case if the book ever gets written (and it is possible to identify anyone from it) he's unlikely to target the French too much - seeing as he's planning to open his hotel and restaurant there. Is there any "whiter than white" rider he'd have spent time with in Telekom / T-Mobile? (Mick Rogers didn't join until after Vino left, just to save you looking it up!)

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

He exhibits a state of denial not seen since Tyler Hamilton. These guys are all so out of touch with the reality of the pro race scene in 2007 that they may as well be inhabiting a parallel universe.

What reality is that?

The one where practically ever major race was won by someone with a question mark over their head?

DaveyL

The reality that doping is no longer being implicitly accepted by the governing bodies, fans and sponsors.

DaveyL

andyp wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

These guys are all so out of touch with the reality of the pro race scene in 2007 that they may as well be inhabiting a parallel universe.

What makes you so sure of this? It may be that we, the fans, are the ones so out of touch with reality that we are inhabiting a parallel, clean universe?

You have a point. Reading the article, the thought struck me that all these guys like Vino, Tyler, Floyd et al could go off and form their own "real cycling" league - call it a DopeTour if you like. There must be enough of them by now that they could have a decent number of teams. Marvel at the riders as they climb Alpe d'Huez in 30 min! Gasp in amazement at the first sub-15 '10' ! Etc etc...

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

The reality that doping is no longer being implicitly accepted by the governing bodies, fans and sponsors.

Would you not suggest Di Luca's presence at the Giro launch paints a different picture?

What about teams like Quick.Step, Saunier, Rabobank etc etc?

DaveyL

There is a growing tide of opinion, from fans, sponsors (a few of whom, you may have noticed, are pulling out) and the UCI that the current situation is unacceptable and cannot continue. Maybe critical mass has not been reached yet, but things are moving in the right direction.

Unless of course you see things only in black and white, and expect an instantaneous change from decades of doping cultures to clean - kind of like shifting what side of the road we drive on... In that case, yeah, things are still just as bad as they were in 1993.

jimmythecuckoo

DaveyL wrote:

The reality that doping is no longer being implicitly accepted by the governing bodies, fans and sponsors.

and that is a step in the right direction.

dave_1

Will Vino spill the beans on Liberty and the riders from there? I wonder...has anyone new at Astana got reason to worry? At T Mobile Vino will have ridden with 2 high profile Americans and an Aussie, and at his previous French team, who was the director? Also, Syndey 2000...Ullrich, Kloeden...is his pissed at them?

DaveyL

My last word on this - well they are Michael Ashendon's words, from his interview on the Competitors Radio show. It is WELL worth a listen (after the first 20 min or so on the Landis case).

“I truly believe that it now comes down to the public and the media. And I guess I’d explain that by saying, in my view, what’s got to change in sport is the federations need to really get serious about getting rid of the problem. I think they’ve got enough tools within their reach to make a start in that direction. The lack of motivation that they’ve displayed in the past, I think stems from the fact that no-one does really care. And the reason no-one cares is because the media aren’t telling the public what’s really going on. And so, to sort of turn that on its head, what I would like to see is for the media to really tell the people what’s going on, to show them the dark underbelly of sport. The people would then – I hope – walk away from the sport and say, “I’m not going to go and watch this any more”. If the people walk away, then the sponsors are going to leave with them. And when the sponsors leave the sport, then you will see that sport start taking the problem seriously. So, in a lot of ways, the viewing public, the spectators, should feel empowered that they’re actually the ones now that can do something. As a scientist, I can see what’s on the horizon, I can understand what we can and can’t do, and we can certainly improve things, but as far as giant steps forward, I think the giant steps will come when the federations are motivated to implement everything they possibly can to get rid of drugs.”

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=68

(Above quote is from about 43 min into the show)

dave_1

DaveyL wrote:

My last word on this - well they are Michael Ashendon's words, from his interview on the Competitors Radio show. It is WELL worth a listen (after the first 20 min or so on the Landis case).

“I truly believe that it now comes down to the public and the media. And I guess I’d explain that by saying, in my view, what’s got to change in sport is the federations need to really get serious about getting rid of the problem. I think they’ve got enough tools within their reach to make a start in that direction. The lack of motivation that they’ve displayed in the past, I think stems from the fact that no-one does really care. And the reason no-one cares is because the media aren’t telling the public what’s really going on. And so, to sort of turn that on its head, what I would like to see is for the media to really tell the people what’s going on, to show them the dark underbelly of sport. The people would then – I hope – walk away from the sport and say, “I’m not going to go and watch this any more”. If the people walk away, then the sponsors are going to leave with them. And when the sponsors leave the sport, then you will see that sport start taking the problem seriously. So, in a lot of ways, the viewing public, the spectators, should feel empowered that they’re actually the ones now that can do something. As a scientist, I can see what’s on the horizon, I can understand what we can and can’t do, and we can certainly improve things, but as far as giant steps forward, I think the giant steps will come when the federations are motivated to implement everything they possibly can to get rid of drugs.”

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=68

(Above quote is from about 43 min into the show)

I agree, and to some extent, Phil and Paul, though I enjoyed quite a lot of their commentary through the years, are slightly diminshed people in my eyes as they gloss over things too much and ..I don't expect them to trash cycling on TV as much of the general public could be listening , but in specialist cycling mags that are not read by the general public, on specialist cycling websites, they are still quoted and should really be tearing into the big names and asking for change rather than attacking the dope testing system-e.g. Phil Ligget saying Landis was not guilty ...Ligget should be more responsible and not attack the only thing we have to produce fair cycling-dope testing..his target should be the riders and managers implicated. Why don't they tear into Bruyneel or Valverde or whoever? Eeven david Milalr had a serious go at Disco for pulling out, saying it was so typical of that team...if he is saying this surely the commentators should be too

squired

I think the problem with guys like Vino is that when they get caught they don't necessarily seem to feel they have actually done something wrong. They've done what almost everyone else around them was doing, but they have lost their career as a result of testing positive, while the others continue.

What they don't seem to appreciate is the fact that they have made money at the expense of other riders who were doing it honestly. I found the comments on cyclingnews.com today about Miguel Martinez returning to road cycling interesting. For those who haven't seen them he essentially said that he got nowhere on the road riding clean a few years ago, but thinks that things are changing so is going to give it another try. Assuming he was doing things the right way he has potentially lost out on huge amounts of money by not taking drugs, while people like Vino can afford to set-up new businesses and have a comfortable life.

If Vino does name names somewhere down the line the people affected will obviously deny everything. They will say that he is just using their name to make money, they never tested positive, etc.

secretsqirrel

DaveyL wrote:

My last word on this - well they are Michael Ashendon's words, from his interview on the Competitors Radio show. It is WELL worth a listen (after the first 20 min or so on the Landis case).

“I truly believe that it now comes down to the public and the media. And I guess I’d explain that by saying, in my view, what’s got to change in sport is the federations need to really get serious about getting rid of the problem. I think they’ve got enough tools within their reach to make a start in that direction. The lack of motivation that they’ve displayed in the past, I think stems from the fact that no-one does really care. And the reason no-one cares is because the media aren’t telling the public what’s really going on. And so, to sort of turn that on its head, what I would like to see is for the media to really tell the people what’s going on, to show them the dark underbelly of sport. The people would then – I hope – walk away from the sport and say, “I’m not going to go and watch this any more”. If the people walk away, then the sponsors are going to leave with them. And when the sponsors leave the sport, then you will see that sport start taking the problem seriously. So, in a lot of ways, the viewing public, the spectators, should feel empowered that they’re actually the ones now that can do something. As a scientist, I can see what’s on the horizon, I can understand what we can and can’t do, and we can certainly improve things, but as far as giant steps forward, I think the giant steps will come when the federations are motivated to implement everything they possibly can to get rid of drugs.”

I have a problem with this in that the media are pre-occupied with what is going on. Everybody I work with, who have no interest at all in cycling, can tell me that 'they are all cheats'. It didn't stop the huge crowds from turning out in London for the Grand Depart, and remember this was still post Landis, Basso, Ullrich etc.
True, it would help if the media would also cover the drugs issues in other sports, I fully agree with Vino (Eurosport yesterday) that cycling is an easy target. But as with cycling would it necessarily turn people away? I suspect not. And as for Sponsors, they are happy to take the publicity that comes with success, they will only walk away when their reputation is at risk.

drenkrom

Vino is absolutely off the mark in terms of the cycling PR scene in 2007, but I say more power to him. Most of the repentant dopers have used extreme caution not to implicate anyone else in their revelations. It's about time we get a bitter doper who's completely pissed off at it all and doesn't care who he slights.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't forgiven his offenses, but I say let him go ahead in his ranting. We might actually get answers out of it, instead of the wussy dilly-dallying we have come to accept as revelations. Whatever attitude the fans and media have, the offenders must be called on their BS if this is to become a crusade to rid the sport of doping, rather than a crusade to present a nice clean image to the magazine journos.

As for those who now appear whiter than white and on whom Vino could have some dirt, dare I utter the initials C.E. ? No. That would be pure speculation.

secretsqirrel

I say Vino should spill the beans, it would take a very strong willed, resilient guy to do it. But a lot can be learned.

IN VINO VERITAS!!

LangerDan

drenkrom wrote:

As for those who now appear whiter than white and on whom Vino could have some dirt, dare I utter the initials C.E. ? No. That would be pure speculation.

What about a 36 year old FM who beat Vino

DaveyL

The Crab?

Martin Van Nostrand

SecretSqirrel wrote:

I say Vino should spill the beans, it would take a very strong willed, resilient guy to do it. But a lot can be learned.

IN VINO VERITAS!!

The same vino with "too much blood in his thighs" and complaining that off-season testing was a "violation of human rights".
One wonders how much of this guy's racing style was due to PEDs.
It's interesting he's choosing to retire during his suspension. I predict a comeback after the suspension period is over. I'm sure it's a coincidence that retired riders don't get PED tested.

In Vino Pharmicuticum

secretsqirrel

WHATEVER.........
Nevertheless, the guy feels hard done by and he has an axe to grind. If he chooses not to go alone and quietly, it could get extremely embarrassing for the whoever the 'whites' might be.
He is in a fairly unique position where, he is still idolised in his own country (unlike poor old Ullrich!), he is never likely to go hungry, and he feels that he owes nothing to the European scene.
Unlike Sinkewitz, he has no dependancy on getting back into racing, and if he chooses to 'tell it like it is' it will be at least interesting, at most will blow apart the smug establishment that is trying to keep the myths alive.