titanium or carbon frame bicycle your help appreciated

disney

I have a cross bike with an 'alu' frame and the ride is rather stiff and distance is a slight problem. I now want to buy a pure road bike next year.I have 'nearly' ( great lack of knowledge etc ) decided on a titanium frame for the so called ride, longevity of frame etc ( what I have read) that it is supposed to produce. I am a little bit suprised by the price differences between the makes such as Litespeed, Merlin, Moots through to Van nicholas, Enigma, Sunday bikes etc. Does a top of the range one really ride and feel that much better, accepting the law of price increase and diminishing returns, with say Ultegra based across the ranges. Does anybody have experience of various TI makes, opinions or any comments would be appreciated. I quite fancy the Sunday or Enigma brand ( I like the idea of a British company and what I have read). Or should I just buy a Trek, Specialize or mail order carbon frame etc at a cheaper price and be done with it. After reading many forums and reviews I am even more confused. The only thing that I do know is that it will probably fit into the more sportive category frame dimension.

Monty Dog

The main difference between the low-end and top end bikes is that cheaper frames are made in Taiwan, China, Russia i.e. Sunday, Setavento, Enigma, VN and high-end frames are generally made in US. There are also a small number of builders - Passoni, DeRosa and Bertoletti in Italy, again are quite pricey. Apart from Litespeed and Merlin (same company & factory) most of the US makers are small scale and pride themselves on quality and workmanship - custom is the typical option too. Don't believe the bull about US titanium being better - 99% of the world's titanium comes from Russia and aerospace qualification means diddly when it's a bike frame - unless you'd like to know the exact traceability back to the lump of titanium ingot your frame tubes were drawn from! To be honest, if this is your first ti frame it's unlikely that you'd notice the difference and hence could justify the price premium, just make sure you get a proper bike fit done and therefore select the right bike for your requirements. As far as comparisons go, a friend who has a couple of Roubaixs recently bought a titanium Van Nicholas and couldn't believe how much better the quality of ride was i.e. smoother and less vibration. I have a 2 ti bikes plus a carbon one and the two ti bikes give way better quality rides - the carbon is harsh and chatters in comparison.

woody-som

Last year I was at the stage of deciding on a new bike, carbon or TI, and after trying a few I went for TI, mainly because of the life and I bought a Van Nicholas Zephyr. The ride quality is amazing over alu, and some carbon frames.

Also VN come with a lifetime warranty, and I know someone who has used it. He crashed his bike into a wall, and put a crack in the headtube. No problem, new frame at half price as it was his fault and not a manufacturing defect.

I've not riden any other TI bikes, but the higher priced bikes use the same grades of Ti tubing, maybe just a bit thinner and a lighter bike, although is this always best?

PHcp

Plain gauge or butted tubing will make a big difference to a frames price. Titanium isn't a particularly expensive raw material, the cost is in working it. Even from the same manufacturer the different tubesets add a lot to the price; Sunday’s Silk Road Pro double butted frame is £1,099, the plain gauge Silk Road is £750.
I've no idea how much difference it makes. It's just useful to know what you're looking at to compare like with like. If a frame isn't described as butted it probably isn't.
I'd add Reynolds new stainless steel to your options, it's supposed to have similar properties to titanium, with the advantage of being used by UK frame builders. Have a look at this example;
http://www.brianrourke.co.uk/images/953_800.jpg

kenbaxter

I went from Alu Giant TCR to Litespeed Vortex and the ride is miles different. My fillings stay in now and I can ride the Litespeed all day without being rattled to bits. Big difference in ride for me.

edeverett

For me the decision came down to how durable the material is. I wouldn't feel happy riding a carbon frame everyday when it might get a knock and be written off - my current aluminium frame has had it's share of falls.

I started to look at custom steel bikes, but ended up ordering a custom titanium frame from Justin Burls. For less than the price of the off-the-shelf competion I get a full custom design and a light but virtually indestructable frame that won't rust. I can't wait to for it to arive.

Reynolds 953 has some cost issues at the moment. It ends up at about £1400 for frame and forks, which I couldn't sensibly justify compared to ti (as much as I lust after a 953 Rourke).

Before you make a choice, I'd reccomend getting in touch with Justin. His frames are lovely and he has a refreshing lack of bullshit when it comes to bike marketing.

(He also made a huge difference to my current bike just by sorting out my saddle position.)

disney

Many many thanks so far for your kind replies and helpful suggestions. I think titanium looks like the way to go. Next question is that I prefer a more upright position, so a relaxed frame would be useful. Now that is also a minefield. SOoooo which make and model? I have Litespeed/ Merlin tastes but having purchased my first bike 6 months ago with all the extra gear, economics and restraint ( the other half !! ) what would be a good direction ( apart from Mr Burls who I will look up ) as a good suggestion. Best bang for buck! I believe is the phrase. I note that better gear sets seem to be appearing on cheaper frames such as dura ace on the PBK team issue. I do not deserve that quality gear set,( would I notice?) but I presume we all lust after top quality components. Dare I look again at Wiggle who I note now carry Litespeed.

phil s

selling a medium omega alchemy if ur interested. £650 with reynolds ouzo pro forks, record headset and deda black magic seatpost.

disney

Very kind but , I shall probably buy shiny new as I tend to keep bikes for a long time. I still have a Raleigh Pioneer now 19 years old and perfectly fine ( so why do i now want yet another bike you ask?).

McBain_v1

I bought an Enigma Esprit and I have to say that I am very[i/] happy with it. It is a lovely light bike and the geometry of the frame is precisely how I wanted it - this was the major factor for me in making the purchase. I am still considering getting a custom-made Rourke frame out of Reynolds 953 because I think that tube set looks utterly wonderful (my other three road bikes are all steelies). None of my bikes have any carbon fiber on them, and I've never ridden a carbon fiber bike so can't really comment...

ClintC

This is my first post here so please go easy on me. I have been reading this post with interest as I recently went through the exact same decision process and would strongly suggest that you contact Greg from Sunday Bicycles. I have just purchased a Silk Road Pro frameset off him, and can only commend him on his efforts to help me out. He wasn't pushy and took the time to understand all of my needs. And the price was favourable as well. Now I can't wait it get the frame built up in the new year, and to hit the road!

kant314

I've heard good things about the VN frames

henderson_mk

i'd like to jump in and heartily recommend the sunday bikes ti frames. i've a silk road pro i picked up off them at the end of the season and it really is the cat's pyjama's.

marty

Johnny G

ClintC wrote:

This is my first post here so please go easy on me. I have been reading this post with interest as I recently went through the exact same decision process and would strongly suggest that you contact Greg from Sunday Bicycles. I have just purchased a Silk Road Pro frameset off him, and can only commend him on his efforts to help me out. He wasn't pushy and took the time to understand all of my needs. And the price was favourable as well. Now I can't wait it get the frame built up in the new year, and to hit the road!

I bought a Silk Road in January and have ridden it on various sportives and TTs and for general riding up until November. You won't be disappointed. Greg is extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

disney

Thanks for the replies.These are the sort of replies that bode well for these new companies, time, effort and a good product? Titanium it shall be and I will definately look at Sunday and Enigma( who I now know I can visit and try out, which sounds a really fine way to sell the product).
My other desire would you believe is not only to buy such a bike,but also I want to (help) build the thing as well and learn about the key critical bits. This in my reasoning would be part of the price. Expect to see a bike going backwards in your area next year. As with computers I find the mechanical and tweaking side fascinating but know zilch about bikes in comparison.

Eurostar

Of course, you could build your own frame from 853 on Dave Yates' course - I just did. If you tell him you want it extra comfy, it will be. And nearly as light as ti. And repairable. There aren't many people who repair ti frames.

I also did a wheel-building course. The bike will be 100% home made!

Andy140

Very similar position, could not decide whether to go for carbon or titanium. Been used to a Reynolds 535 frame for 12 year and aluminium for last two - such a harsh ride. Having spoken to many people and visited many shops have finally decided on ti, but then which make. Have an order in with Lynskey for the frame (they founded Litespeed but sold it to American Cycles (?) who also build Merlin. Lynskey now build under their family name and have been fantastic to deal with. The 2008 range have higher head tube which may be of interest to you, in giving a higher bar position. Only drawback is they are only available through Bikelab in Poole, who have been brilliant to deal with. Can’t wait fro frame to arrive - they are building it this week.

http://lynskeyperformance.com/

disney

Ahh yes! I have read that they were the original Merlin people. I should think they build excellent products today.
Now here we go again, another excellent suggestion. I now notice the gradual creep of steel into the equation of suggestions. I think that I could go on vacation just visiting the makers locations. Tenneesee via Herstmonceux, Poole, Macclesfield and onward in the quest for the Holy grail, a perfect Ti frame, build by craftsmen and ridden by a moron.

craigwend

So what the budget?

pliptrot

Disney,

you are doing yourself a disservice with your self deprecating comments. If you need a new bike, it's already too late. If you want one, it's about time. Let us know what you end up buying. I'm in the market for a new bike (we should always be at this stage) and will look for your lead...( I would recommend a carbon bike...2003 Trek Madone.... but I'm sure that doesn't help).

greg roche

As some of you know i keep an eye on various forums. I'd like to say thank you to the customers who've said positive things here. Obviously, we're small and we don't yet have a massive customer base, but as sales continue to grow i hope this'll just get better and better.

What some of you might not know, but that i'm immensely proud of, is that we were recently listed by The Observer On Sunday newspaper as one of their 'Future 500' businesses of 2007 - basically a listing of the 500 most exciting and fast establishing businesses in the UK.

Right, self congratulatory post over, you can get back to deciding between carbon and ti....

Thanks

Greg

wildmoustache

Carbon generally has a higher stiffness to weight ratio and at the top-end is getting lighter, but still with lots of stiffness comfort (e.g. Cervelo , Look , Storck, Isaac...).

Ti on the other hand is less stiff and a bit heavier (though still pretty light) and beats most carbon on comfort.

the comfort/stiffness thing is a personal issue ... i would happily trade off some comfort more a more direct, stiff feeling bike ... though having done double centuries on harsh alu, appreciate some comfort.

Ti can also withstand more knocks, though doesn't "last forever" just like carbon won't fall apart if you look at it. For many people the greater durability will swing it for Ti , while others feel they'll probably buy a new frame every three or four years anyway...

then there are aesthetics ... where again it's each to his own ... I personally think most Ti bikes are bit boring looking ... let me guess ... silver with black fork??? ... but one man's boring is another man's classy...

I'll probably add a Ti bike to my stable soon, but if i had to choose one or other, would go for carbon for the better stiffness to weight and aesthetics

mercsport

My dilemma happened in the early spring this year when my Raleigh 'Special Products' Ti. frame gave up on me via the downtube snapping in two . There were good reasons why it did that and considering how long it had held together for me ( years ) it was a wonder that it hadn't happened sooner . But , it was the frame that turned me into a 'Titanium forever' nut . It was simple and uncomplicated , Russian 3.25 tubes with nice weld beads and the ride was the best I'd ever had .
When I got around to researching for another frame , after dismissing the carbon option , I discovered a plethora of really nice frames to be had , and nice people selling them -such as Greg from Sunday , Jim Walker -Enigma - and so on , but I kept coming back to Litespeed and wondering what it was that made them different . Price notably , ( US labour rates and import dues on top of the usual scalping from the retail agent ) but what else exactly ? What I worked out was that straight round tubes were unusual in their high end frames and that cold worked swaged and shaped artful tubes were the norm . Additionally they used -depending on model - .a good deal of 6.4 ti ( stiffer ) and the welding appeared to be perfection . And so on .
I ended up with a new 2006 Litespeed Ultimate ( mercifully , they'd given up messing up the integrity of Ti. with carbon of the previous years , a wholly different frame to previous 'Ultimate' incarnations ) . It's a beaut' . I suppose what I mean to say is that if you are a wee bit techie' and intrigued by 'new ideas' , top build quality and the rest , then Litespeed has it in spades .
P.S. Wildmoustache's assertion that carbon frames are lighter than titanium is plain wrong as Litespeed make the fabulous Ghisallo frame which comes in at 0.75 kilo . which is about the same as some of the lightest carbons I believe . Also , Litespeed aren't averse to painting their frames .
http://www.litespeed.com/2008/home.aspx

redddraggon

greg roche wrote:

As some of you know i keep an eye on various forums. I'd like to say thank you to the customers who've said positive things here. Obviously, we're small and we don't yet have a massive customer base, but as sales continue to grow i hope this'll just get better and better.

What some of you might not know, but that i'm immensely proud of, is that we were recently listed by The Observer On Sunday newspaper as one of their 'Future 500' businesses of 2007 - basically a listing of the 500 most exciting and fast establishing businesses in the UK.

Right, self congratulatory post over, you can get back to deciding between carbon and ti....

Thanks

Greg

You have some good bikes, I'd definitely consider getting one if there was stockist near enough to me, macclesfield is the closest but it's not easy to get to when you don't have a car.

disney

pliptrot wrote:

Disney,

you are doing yourself a disservice with your self deprecating comments. If you need a new bike, it's already too late. If you want one, it's about time. Let us know what you end up buying. I'm in the market for a new bike (we should always be at this stage) and will look for your lead...( I would recommend a carbon bike...2003 Trek Madone.... but I'm sure that doesn't help).

My sense of humour and you have not seen me ride

giant_man

Disney, I have been on a similar quest to yourself ie. finding a good ti framebuilder, looked at loads including Enigma, Sunday, Burls, Seven, Merlin, Rourke (US), Guru (US), and a few others, eliminating Litespeed and VN early on (just personal preference), and quite honestly I am still looking for the right build quality/finish/price package, there are just so many ti names out there now.

It's a buyer's market alright but I do hope you come across something you fall in love with and make a good decision that's right for YOU.

gkerr4

I think if you have that sort of inclination then you should definately go for a self-build option.

especially if you can afford the time to put it together over a few months - i.e. a winter based project to build a new summer bike.

I;ve said it before - bikes are not nuclear submarines - they are not complex to put together and service - there are one or two jobs where you won't want to buy the special tool - i.e. headset bearing instal - get a shop / supplier to do that for you.

The rest - well the big players in groupsets provid plenty of technical instruction, there are a few good technical manuals out there and then you have a wealth of good knowledge on here. You will get immense satisfaction from building your own bike and be fully prepared to upgrade it / service it as you go along!

wildmoustache

mercsport wrote:

P.S. Wildmoustache's assertion that carbon frames are lighter than titanium is plain wrong as Litespeed make the fabulous Ghisallo frame which comes in at 0.75 kilo . which is about the same as some of the lightest carbons I believe . Also , Litespeed aren't averse to painting their frames .
http://www.litespeed.com/2008/home.aspx

Granted that the Ghisallo is one of the lightest frames ever ... you can make a very light Ti frame, but you can't make it stiff The Ghisallo is reknowned as being a dreadful handling frame, flexy frame, not fabulous.

and the range of colours /designs on Ti frames is far smaller than carbon

disney

greg roche wrote:

As some of you know i keep an eye on various forums. I'd like to say thank you to the customers who've said positive things here. Obviously, we're small and we don't yet have a massive customer base, but as sales continue to grow i hope this'll just get better and better.

What some of you might not know, but that i'm immensely proud of, is that we were recently listed by The Observer On Sunday newspaper as one of their 'Future 500' businesses of 2007 - basically a listing of the 500 most exciting and fast establishing businesses in the UK.

Right, self congratulatory post over, you can get back to deciding between carbon and ti....

Thanks
I sure hope that you succeed. Maybe I should buy into Sunday. I missed on Google. For £50,000 at one stage, you could have got the Google algorithm or a major part of the setup, but like all crystal ball gazeing it requires a bit of lateral thinking and most of the big companies missed it also. After the event it is all too easy to see why a company is successful. The formula is always the same and works every time.
Greg

Iain Roche

Just to add my (brief) 2 pennies worth….

Both Ti and carbon fibre are fabulous materials to make bike frames from. We plan to talk about this in more detail on our website in the new year but until then here are a couple of explanations that may be of use to this post.

Firstly just to clarify over any confusion, if a Ti manufacturer uses a specified ASTM grade of titanium then that is what it is, whether it is made by us (Sunday bicycles) or any other brand, the chemical composition of that material will be identical (within the tolerance set out by standard its self).

The properties of the finished tube will be a combination of the chemical structure of the material itself, how the material is worked, its geometry (inc wall thickness), and any post processing. Then how it is designed into the rest of the structure will have the final say on how it will perform “in situ”.

“Carbon fibre” bikes on the other hand are not as easy to define. Composite bikes are made up from the reinforcing component (the carbon) the matrix (the glue) and sometimes other filler materials. The materials propertied propagate from the reinforcing materials properties, its orientation in the matrix (where applicable), the composition of the matrix its self, the properties of any fillers used and perhaps most critically the interface between the matrix and the other materials. Then the final geometry, and its location and orientation with respect to the rest of the frame become important factors.

Obviously this is a simplified explanation, and I don’t want to get too technical and boring. However, the point I am making, is we should try to compare apples with apples. Saying a bike is made from carbon is similar to saying its made from metal. Its properties could vary hugely.

There are however some generic properties of both material that you have already mentioned in terms of their durability etc etc.

anyway, just though you may find this helpfull

Iain

dcj

Granted that the Ghisallo is one of the lightest frames ever ... you can make a very light Ti frame, but you can't make it stiff The Ghisallo is reknowned as being a dreadful handling frame, flexy frame, not fabulous.

I have a Ghisallo from 2005. I test rode this version for a week as I had heard negative comments about wishy-washy handling and lack of stiffness on the 2003 version.

Sometimes comments are hearsay, misinformation, no longer relevant, or in one case a magazine review that focused criticism on the own-brand forks which was not relevant to me as I did not purchase those forks.

I also have a new carbon bike with carbonsports wheels which I am extremely very pleased with.
However, the Ghisallo has a far far smoother ride, and is just as responsive out of the saddle.
Pushed hard on the alpine descents of the 2006 Etape it felt close to perfection, especially under hard braking from high speeds.

Where the carbon bike is good is it was so much cheaper albeit you give up the wonderful smooth ride quality.

So in my experience - cost no object - for some riders a Ghisallo would represent a near perfect blend of handing, agility and real comfort, to which can be added durability of finish.