Speccing a touring bike

sean65

Hi all,

My quest to find a versatile road bike has led me to Condor Bikes. I'll be checking the Fratello and the Heritage and arranging to test ride both.

The fratello looks great but I'm concerned as to whether it would be slightly less versatile than the Heritage due to shorter rear triangle and limited load carrying.

The Heritage seems to be built like a tank in comparison, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the choice of component groups available.

For the Fratello I could afford the Shimano 105's or the Campagnolo Veloce.

But for the Heritage the groups change slightly to give the following choices:-

Shimano :- Sora, Tiagra, 105's, Deore and Deore XT

Campagnolo :- Camp9, Race and Comp.

I'm only familiar with the MTB group sets so any advice you can give on the road sets especially Compagnolo would be appreciated.

The bike would be used for fun, utility, touring and Audax.

Thanks all

Eurostar

Gordon Bennett, that's a rather broad question!

Tell us first what's the most remote place you might want to go? Will there be proper mountains involved? (If not, why not? ) Will you be camping? What's your budget? And how do you feel about building the bike yourself? (Bear with me on this one!)

P_J_Rogers

Am also considering a heritage as a touring bike. Condor can mix and match components if needs be. I discussed their XT option with STIs and a TA chainset + Tubus rack as upgrade to the standard model.

Philip

andymiller

You can compare the quality levels by comparing the prices eg

Shimano 105 more or less equivalent to Deore XT more or less equivalent to Campagnolo Comp.

I think the major first issue for you is whether you you want MTB-type gearing (which many people touring do because they want gears for hauling heavily-loaded bikes up mountains). If you do then that pretty much means you need to go down the route of Shimano Deore or Deore XT.

If you don't, then you can choose between Shimano or Campagnolo. there often seem to be big silly fights between Shimano fans and Campagnolo fans but in all honesty they both do the job and you won't regret buying either.

Actually Shimano vs Campagnolo and 105 vs Ultegra etc are the simplest of the choices to think about.

One issue to consider is whether you want to combine drop bars with MTB gearing. A lot of tourers go down the route of using bar end shifters as the way to achieve this.

A lot of people prefer the ergonomics of the Campagnolo shifter but want to use a predominantly Shimano drivetrain.

Condor should be able to advise you on these issues - and if they can't I'd go somewhere else.

If you go down the bar end shifters route you can also think about v-brakes vs cantis!

And if your brain isn't hurting already, a lot of people prefer steel to aluminium as a frame material for touring bikes because of the way that it absorbs vibration.

The Heritage looks very nice, but I'd also suggest that you consider a Planet-X Kaffenback. I've had one for three years - it's tough and versatile, and has won its fair share of awards in its time. Oh and it has all the bits you need for mudguards and racks.

I'd also suggest looking at the Spa Cycles site if only to give you an idea of what else is available. Spa are touring specialists. For example they have a Dawes Ultra Galaxy which represents really excellent value for a touring bike (not sure about it as an Audax bike) the spec would be pretty much impossible to beat at that price..

Brains

I userd the Dawes Ultra Galaxy as my 'benchmark' bike. compare everything with it and see if you can improve it.

I eventually bought a Thorn Nomad by mail order having taken a very long look at Condor (which were 100m from my office at the time)

Eurostar

If I were you I'd choose the gear ratios before choosing a group set. (Which is why I mentioned mountains and camping gear.) Lots of touring riders who don't think this through end up with lots of really high ratios they never use, with double shifts and big gaps between their cruising ratios, and a bottom gear which isn't low enough for dragging yourself and your tent up an alp at the end of a long day.

I'm building a tourer at the moment. It's got a straight block (12-19) and probably 24/34/44 at the front. Thorn gives good advice on touring ratios in their 'Living with a Rohloff' download here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/downloads.html

You'll also need Sheldon Brown's gear ratio calculator http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Lots of tourists choose Deore and XT because it's reckoned to be bomb-proof. (I'm going for 8 speed Dura Ace, for reasons I won't bore you with.)

P_J_Rogers

When I went to London last month, I popped into Condor to see the Heritage plus Evans (sorry) to see an Ultra Galaxy. The Condor was better assembled and looked a better finished frame. Its Italian as opposed to the Dawes being made in Vietnam. However, I could swallow that on the basis that Spa are very good value and would let me upgrade to better handmade wheels.

Philip

culverwood

The what sort of touring question really needs to be answered before going any further?

With tent or without?
Weekend or Months?
Europe or Middle of Nowhere?
Road only or on a few paths?

andymiller

P_J_Rogers wrote:

When I went to London last month, I popped into Condor to see the Heritage plus Evans (sorry) to see an Ultra Galaxy. The Condor was better assembled and looked a better finished frame. Its Italian as opposed to the Dawes being made in Vietnam. However, I could swallow that on the basis that Spa are very good value and would let me upgrade to better handmade wheels.

What struck me most about the spec was the fact that the frame was made with 853 Reynolds tube which is claimed to have the best strength to weight ratio of any steel commonly used in frames (I tried not to overcomplicte my original post by intoducing different types of steel). Given that, I think I could live with having to do some reassembly and some upgrading.

P_J_Rogers

Yes true Andy, but I think its only 853 for the main tubes. The rest is unspecified cromoly. A Hewtiit is 725 throughout and a Thorn a 531/725 mix.

The Ultra Galaxy does have a good value spec components wise which does make it come in cheaper than the other options.

andymiller

P_J_Rogers wrote:

Yes true Andy, but I think its only 853 for the main tubes. The rest is unspecified cromoly.

Ah, right. Yes that makes sense.

Eurostar

My Dave Yates tourer is 853 main tubes and 525 for the rest.

sean65

Firstly, thanks for all your responses.

I guess it's not so easy to know what the future holds regards trips but planned trips include northern Spain and possibly a London to Marakesh trip later next year.

Now I know northern Spain is hilly. I used to live there and spent quite a few years climbing around Cantabria on a hard tail MTB with XT kit.

With regards to knowing the ratio's I need I guess a happy compromise that should have all bases covered.

I'm asking a lot from my next bike. It has to be able to cope with light or heavyish touring, buzzing around the shops, just going riding without any luggage just for the fun of it and whatever else comes along so ride quality would have preference over saving a few pounds of weight here and there.

It's a bike I'll be riding for many hours each week so comfort is also a concern.

From my research since posting the initial thread I've found that the Camp Race and Comp are triple chainset as compared to double but I'm guessing the shifters and deraileures are much the same with marginal quality differences.

Being unfamiliar with most of the group sets I was wondering if any one in particular jumps out of the crowd with regards to suitability and reliability.

Some of you have flagged up the subject of wheels as well. Hand built being the preference. But again do any of the groups offered have particularly maintenance free hubs that would be more suited to trouble free touring than others?

To give you a better idea of where I'm at with the choices, I'm tempted to go for the Campagnolo Race because their black.

Hardly an informed decission. :shock:

andymiller

sean65 wrote:

Now I know northern Spain is hilly. I used to live there and spent quite a few years climbing around Cantabria on a hard tail MTB with XT kit.

With regards to knowing the ratio's I need I guess a happy compromise that should have all bases covered.

I'm asking a lot from my next bike. It has to be able to cope with light or heavyish touring, buzzing around the shops, just going riding without any luggage just for the fun of it and whatever else comes along so ride quality would have preference over saving a few pounds of weight here and there.

[...]

Some of you have flagged up the subject of wheels as well. Hand built being the preference. But again do any of the groups offered have particularly maintenance free hubs that would be more suited to trouble free touring than others?

To give you a better idea of where I'm at with the choices, I'm tempted to go for the Campagnolo Race because their black.

Hardly an informed decission. :shock:

I know the feeling, I have a beautiful set of carbon Campagnolo Record levers but I've never used them simply because they aren't actually very practical for the sort of riding I do.

I know you want to be told to get something bling and Italian. but the a short, sensible answer to your question is Shimano XT. You know it works for you, why not stick with it?

sean65

andymiller wrote:

I know you want to be told to get something bling and Italian. but the a short, sensible answer to your question is Shimano XT. You know it works for you, why not stick with it?

Road rings seem much bigger on the front. XT would be the same as my MTB setup which is fine off road but lacks for road work when the speed picks up a bit. I'll count the teetth when I have a chance a see if there are options for bigger cogs than what I'me using at the moment.

P_J_Rogers

One of the suggestions Condor gave me was to use a TA Carmina chainset on the Heritage. This, with suitable chainlengths, be able to give you whole sets of ranges depending on what rings you were running on.

Philip

Eurostar

One set of gears for everything from audax to heavy touring in the mountains is a tall order, and you have to compromise somewhere. You can, as you say, 'cover all the bases' by having everything from 20" to 120", but you'll end up with biggish gaps between your cruising ratios, which personally I find frustrating if I'm trying to maintain a high average speed on a long day.

I'm trying to build a bike to do the same things as you, but because I want a straight block for fast cruising I'm compromising by having a bottom gear no lower than 32" and a top one no higher than 100" - that's 27 mph at a cadence of 90. Is that fast enough for your audaxing?

The compromise depends on your legs and how you like to ride, so I suggest you read the last page of the SJS download in my above post and have a good long think.

PHcp

Shimanos 9spd road and MTB stuff is interchangable, you don't have to make a decision for life. You could run the one bike with two totally different ratios, rear mechs are cheap and running two cassetts and chains has no extra cost in the long run, swapping is easy enough.

PHcp

P_J_Rogers wrote:

One of the suggestions Condor gave me was to use a TA Carmina chainset on the Heritage. Philip

I'm sure that's a very nice chainset, but you don't need to spend £200+ to get what you want. You'd get more practical advice from Paul Hewitt

Eurostar

PHcp wrote:

Shimanos 9spd road and MTB stuff is interchangable, you don't have to make a decision for life. You could run the one bike with two totally different ratios, rear mechs are cheap and running two cassetts and chains has no extra cost in the long run, swapping is easy enough.

Good point. Different blocks and chains for different trips.

nun

sean65 wrote:

Hi all,


The Heritage seems to be built like a tank in comparison, but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the choice of component groups available.

For the Fratello I could afford the Shimano 105's or the Campagnolo Veloce.
l

I just looked at the Heritage on the Condor website the geometry looks good for an Audax/tourerr.. However, the bike looks like a touring bike that a road cyclist would put together. The bars a way too low, the saddles all wrong, it has STI, Campy 10 speed, and a small cassette.

For a good tourer get a Surly LHT from Wiggle, a Galaxy, or a Mercian KOM. Put some well built 36 spoke wheels on it (Velocity Dyads are nice) and some good hubs, XT or if you can spring for them Phil Wood or Royce. Get an 9 speed XT 12-34 cassete and an XT derailleur. For a crankset use a TA Carmina or a Sugino 110/74 and put 46/36/24 rings on it, get a TA or Phil BB, Most triple front detailleurs will work. Do Shimano barcons and some good cantilevers like Avid, IRD or if you can Paul Componets. Saddle Brooks, some wide drop bars 44 or 46cm. Finally tyres min 28mm, 32 or 35 if they will fit

andymiller

sean65 wrote:

andymiller wrote:

I know you want to be told to get something bling and Italian. but the a short, sensible answer to your question is Shimano XT. You know it works for you, why not stick with it?

Road rings seem much bigger on the front. XT would be the same as my MTB setup which is fine off road but lacks for road work when the speed picks up a bit. I'll count the teetth when I have a chance a see if there are options for bigger cogs than what I'me using at the moment.

Erm if you go online to one of the online speed calculator you'll see that a bike with 700c tyres, a 44T front chainring, and an 11 rear cog will give you 30mph at 100rpm. 20 per cent faster before you start to spin out. But there would be nothing to stop you going to say a 48T chainring which should be fast enough.

In any event a quite common combination is an XT rear mech at the back and a road 105 mech at the front which gives you the optionof a larger chainring on the front plus (if you want it, an MTB cassette at the back. And there's nothing to stop you having a closely-spaced cassette for general use plus an MTB cassette for touring in the mountains.

But as with anything there are always tradeoffs to be made and in my experience I can never remember a time when I was reaching for a higher gear but plenty of times when I was reaching for a lower gear.

As I say, be guided by your experience of what works for you rather than stereotypes about road bikes. Also do check out the specs for touring and Audax bikes - they are usually specced that way for a reason.

culverwood

I think you really want two bikes.

A slinky audax with all the latest carbonfibre and black bits and a beast of burden for your touring. If you go the two bike route you will not have to make the comprimises you will be annoyed by all the time you ride.

Your beast of burden need not cost too much as long as it has many gears (ie mountain bike type XT is not necessary), light weight front and back racks and perhaps butterfly bars rather than drops. You can then avoid having to make changes to your favourite spec for your audax bike.

sean65

Thanks all,

A lot of good points again.

You're all speaking with a fair amount of combined experience and as such I think I should just go for a bike that I think is about right and let it naturally evolve over time.

As thiings wear out I'll replace them with components that I feel might be more suitable etc.

With regards the point about the Condor Heritage looking like it was designed by a road racer, I think that is what appeals to me. It seems like it's on the sporty side of touring and I could always flip the stem or replace it if I want a more relaxed ride.

Thanks again all

Cunobelin

Take advice from the builders - they will often know what does and doesn't work with their frames.

I bought two Thorns earlier this year and some of the ideas I had were non-starters, and some of the ideas they suggested have worked well.

edeverett

P_J_Rogers wrote:

Yes true Andy, but I think its only 853 for the main tubes. The rest is unspecified cromoly. A Hewtiit is 725 throughout and a Thorn a 531/725 mix.

I've got nothing to add on-topic, but I don't think Reynolds make chain/seat stays in 853, so seems a little unfair to critise a bike for not having them.

http://www.reynoldscycles.co.uk/downloads/PARTLIST.pdf

P_J_Rogers

Maybe. The point was Dawes use 853 for main tubes in the Ultra Galaxy, but we have little idea what the rest is made of. Thorn, for example, state they use 531 for the forks. I may still buy a Dawes on price.

Philip

wallabyhunter

Yes true Andy, but I think its only 853 for the main tubes. The rest is unspecified cromoly. A Hewtiit is 725 throughout and a Thorn a 531/725 mix.

Pardon the ignorance, How much difference does the grade of steel (853/725/531) make a) to the handling & b) to the price? I am buying a bike at the mo, & Hewitt is one of the brands I'm considereing, any thoughts on that frame builder?

gb

andymiller

wallabyhunter

In the great scheme of things I think the answer is 'probably not a lot'.

853 has the best strength-to-weight ratio, so you can get a lighter bike for the same strength or a stronger bike for the same weight.

The Reynolds website is full of information. though clearly they have an incentive to encourage people to order more expensive tubing.

SFAIK most frame builders offer it as an option for an extra £100, So if you're going to the expense of having a frame made, it's worth considering - but 725 if perfectly fine.

Probably worth starting a separate thread on framebuilders.

Carpe Diem

I have an Ultra Galaxy, bought from Spa cycles for £850 about 2 years ago.

Its an excellent bike that I use for touring on (panniers, but I dont carry camping gear) and with a lighter set of wheels (still 36 spoke) I audax on it.

It came with a 105 road triple chainset that I have changed the inner ring to a 28 from a 30 tooth, this with a 34 tooth cassette will get me up anything when I,m loaded up.

When I audax, I have a 25 or 27 cassette on the lighter wheels.

I have also swopped the Avid canti's for Veloce mini V's that are a lot better and dont squeal like the avids :evil:

It is a good stable bike, I find it very versatile, and stripped for audax (still with guards but no rear rack) it weighs in at about 23 lbs

wallabyhunter

Thanks andymiller, as you say Reynolds may have a vested interest, I will do as you suggest & try another thread.

gb