Accident in Streatham Last Night

jimbo1964

My wife saw a badly mangled bike and lots of police and emergency vehicles at the junction of the South Circular and Brixton Hill last night. It didn't look good for the cyclist I'm afraid.

Cheshire_Cat

Hi ,

Sorry to report thet a cyclist was killed after being in collison with a Tesco lorry, sometime before 8pm at the junction of Brixton Hill and Christchurch Road Deepest sympathies to the family.

jimbo1964

I'm afraid that has confirmed my worst fears. As you say, sympathies to the family.

PO Paul

Sad news.
That's on my route. It is a big junction with many dangers, I always take a bit of extra care through it.
Due to Office Party and subsequent hangover, I've been off the bike for a couple of days, so cannot offer any further news.

afctumike

Deepest condolences to her family.
Report in Streatham Guardian

Brains

What is it about women and left turning HGV's ?

Statistically women are a minority of cyclists, yet the majority of those killed by HGV's turning left.

I personally know two cyclists who have been killed, both female, both by left turning HGVs

spen666

Brains wrote:

What is it about women and left turning HGV's ?

Statistically women are a minority of cyclists, yet the majority of those killed by HGV's turning left.

I personally know two cyclists who have been killed, both female, both by left turning HGVs

Speculation, but I suspect it is because generally women are less assertive on the road and tend to ride closer to the edge of the road. Thus marginalising themselves and making it seem easier for motorist to turn across them than if they were more assertively positioned.

This speculative idea of mine doesn't change the fact that the motorist should be ensuring the road is clear and it is safe to turn, before commencing the manouvere.

Buffalo Bill

Brains wrote:

What is it about women and left turning HGV's ?

Statistically women are a minority of cyclists, yet the majority of those killed by HGV's turning left.

No they are not!

The true stat is: 85% of women cyclists killed in London 99- 2004 were involved in a collision with a HGV.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article ... -1999-2004

Brains

Quote
The real statistics are:
from 1999 - May 2004:
87 deaths of cyclists of which 21 were female, 66 male.
Of those 21 females an astonishing 18 (85%) were killed by HGV drivers.
Another 28 of the males (around 50%) were also killed by HGVs.UnQuote

Which I think rather proves my point, if about one third of cyclists are female (which sounds high to me) then the 21f v 66m is about right, but that fact that 85% of the females were killed by HGV's is as the report says, 'astonishing'

Buffalo Bill

Sorry, it doesn't prove your point. I don't want to be a pedant, but you said

"Statistically women are a minority of cyclists, yet the majority of those killed by HGV's turning left."

Those stats show that female cyclist make up less than 50% of the total, which is the OPPOSITE of what you said.

Gavin Gilbert

Whatever the statistics, arguing about it here is somewhat distasteful.

Buffalo Bill

Gavin Gilbert wrote:

Whatever the statistics, arguing about it here is somewhat distasteful.

No, getting the fact right is important. If you think there is a problem, then you go and look at the evidence. And draw conclusions based on that.

You don't just make things up, or repeat untruths, and then when this is pointed out deny that you did any such thing.

It's not 'whatever', it's called building a case, based on facts. Cynthia Barlow of Roadpeace calls it 'evidence-based information' here

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article ... e-the-road

Adamskii

What ever the stats are just to many cyclists are involved in accidents with HGV's. Just remember to NEVER undertake an HGV or Bus unless it's stationary and you are sure it's not going to move until you're clear. It just isn't worth it.

Clever Pun

Buffalo Bill wrote:

Sorry, it doesn't prove your point. I don't want to be a pedant, but you said

"Statistically women are a minority of cyclists, yet the majority of those killed by HGV's turning left."

Those stats show that female cyclist make up less than 50% of the total, which is the OPPOSITE of what you said.

I think the point he was pushing was if a women cyclist is in an accident it's highly likely it'll involve some unpleasantness with a HGV... I think the % of women out on the roads is pretty much irrelevant as far as this discussion goes imo.

Either way, this is the important thing

ADAMSKI wrote:

What ever the stats are just to many cyclists are involved in accidents with HGV's. Just remember to NEVER undertake an HGV or Bus unless it's stationary and you are sure it's not going to move until you're clear. It just isn't worth it.

snooks

Adamskii wrote:

What ever the stats are just to many cyclists are involved in accidents with HGV's. Just remember to NEVER undertake an HGV or Bus unless it's stationary and you are sure it's not going to move until you're clear. It just isn't worth it.

I'd like to think that, as people who talk, type and waffle about cycling when we should be working, we are educated in the dangers of HGV's and busses whether they are turning or not.

It does however seem there are cyclists who are unaware of the dangers (lack of visibility, left turners, turning circle, bus stops etc) of undertaking large vechicles, and it's this group (be them male or female) who need educating.

If no cyclists went up the inside of turning HGVs then there would be no more deaths in this type of incident.

So what can we do?....I'd like to see stickers on the back of HGVs and Buses for example, rather than a massive campaign highlighting the "dangers" of cycling, which would probably scare cyclists off the road and dissuade others from taking it up

Underscore

snooks wrote:

If no cyclists went up the inside of turning HGVs then there would be no more deaths in this type of incident.

Just as an aside, the one time that I've been forced off the road was by an HGV on the approach to a roundabout. It was a non-articulated lorry towing a big trailer on an A-road. A few hundred yards before the roundabout (while I was still in secondary), it started to overtake. When it had got to the point where the hitch of the trailer was level with me, it had to start breaking for the roundabout - and it also started taking a line that cut across the bend of the road as it entered the roundabout. I started braking but, by the time the trailer had got to within a foot of the kerb, I was still a few feet in front of the rear of the trailer - fortunately, I was going so slowly by this point, that I was able to bail, with a half-step, half-fall, onto the verge.

So, it is still possible to have this kind of death when no cyclist go up the inside of HGV/buses, but, I agree, they would be hugely more rare - and more directly attributable to bad driving on the part of the HGV driver.

_

P.S. Before people respond to the above description, I know that I should have cycled more defensively and, were I faced with a similar situation again, I would.

squired

Being aware of impending hazards is one of the most important parts of cycling.

The thing is that most people walk round in life not paying attention to their surroundings. Last week when I was shopping, walking across a road in driving rain I spotted a £5 note on the road. A month ago I found a £10 note on my way to the train station. The response I got from people was along the lines of how come I'm always finding things like money, when they never do. My response was that I'm always aware of my surroundings. This feeds across to cycling. I'm always aware of what is going on around me, any potential danger spots I'm approaching, etc. The problem is that I think most people cycle the way they go through the rest of life.

One great cycling example I can think of is buses. You are 50 metres from a bus stop and a bus comes up behind you intending to overtake. The odds are good that he is probably going to have to stop in 50 metres. If you carry on at your current speed he is going to brake and you could be in trouble. Instead you adjust immediately to avoid the danger. Of course some people don't even register the bus, carry on and then almost (or possibly do) have a nasty accident.

Regarding this accident it is very sad news, which had happened on roads I've ridden many times over the years. Hopefully there were some witnesses, who can help the police get to the bottom of what happened.

overmars

jimbo1964 wrote:

My wife saw a badly mangled bike and lots of police and emergency vehicles at the junction of the South Circular and Brixton Hill last night. It didn't look good for the cyclist I'm afraid.

I only read about this today in the Evening Standard. The family live on the same road as me. I knew she rode a bike, was impressed how often she used it because there's a few short sharp hills where we are. Only said hello a few times.

Yes, sympathies to the family. I'll leave flowers later today.

danseur

There are already plenty of lorries on the roads with signs warning cyclists not to undertake. There was also a poster campaign in London about the dangers of passing large vehicles on the left.

I agree that there are a lot of other cyclists who don't seem to have got the message (and probably won't). Discussing things on a cycling forum is preaching to the converted.

snooks

danseur wrote:

There are already plenty of lorries on the roads with signs warning cyclists not to undertake. There was also a poster campaign in London about the dangers of passing large vehicles on the left.

I agree that there are a lot of other cyclists who don't seem to have got the message (and probably won't). Discussing things on a cycling forum is preaching to the converted.

I have never seen them...the "no entry" signs (ironically mostly on left hookers) seem to be a continental thing, as the "no entry" sign is usually on the wrong side.....but I thought they were for cars.....I also only recall seeing a poster sign for cyclist not to undertake buses (At bus stops) and again it's too little too late. At bus stops the responsibillity should be on the bus driver not to cut up a cyclist, a couple of seconds delay to the driver won't effect the timetables. (to be honest most of the drivers I've encountered do exactly that, hang back, pick up people, and burn past me - Hey I'm not that fast alright?!? )

So, I as a cyclist on the roads in the capital city, if I haven't seen the warnings, then I'm not too sure who has....

May be I'm too busy looking at the traffic, but I like to think I might have see some of the indicators you're speaking of

Bassjunkieuk

I to was shocked to read about this story and first heard about it via a local cyclist yahoo group for Croydon.

I regularly use that stretch of road on my commute to and from London but it really does bring home how dangerous it is cycling, it's no wonder my wife is quite nervous every time I leave the house!

I do have to agree with what Squired said though. Being aware of what is happening around you is very important when on a bike, I can still remember a few months back after using my bike in the dark for ages I had to use my car to go and collect a bulky item. It was dark and the rain was chucking it down. When I came to a junction I actually felt a bit nervous as I didn't have the same kind of visibility and awareness of my surroundings as I'd become accustom to on my bike! I think cycling has helped me greatly as I'm more aware of other vehicles on the road, helped by the fact that I used to do a lot of motorway driving in my previous job role, I just became quite used to dealing with traffic.

Unfortunately no amount of awareness of where the other vehicles are is helpful when a HGV suddenly decides to turn, as due to poor visibility on both parts (the driver of the cyclist and the cyclist of the lorry's indicators) it's usually not going to end well.

My deepest sorrows go out to the family.

BentMikey

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

I regularly use that stretch of road on my commute to and from London but it really does bring home how dangerous it is cycling, it's no wonder my wife is quite nervous every time I leave the house!

This bit is quite wrong. Do you really believe cycling is that dangerous? In the UK it's about as safe as walking anywhere.

DavidTQ

BentMikey wrote:

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

I regularly use that stretch of road on my commute to and from London but it really does bring home how dangerous it is cycling, it's no wonder my wife is quite nervous every time I leave the house!

This bit is quite wrong. Do you really believe cycling is that dangerous? In the UK it's about as safe as walking anywhere.

I dont believe thats true that its as safe as walking anywhere, I certainly feel safer walking than cycling, that pavement and the raised curb provide a decent disincentive for drivers to stray into you. You have a physically protected space, it doesnt matter if drivers have seen you or not.

Cycling you have to deal with the fact that you are manouvering around several tons of steel controlled by people who can be either unaware of your presence or outright aggressive. We can do what we can to minimize the risks but when cycling you are playing amongst machines that can kill you, when you're a pedestrian you spend the majority of your time in a pretty safe place.

The dangers for pedestrians come mainly at junctions and there as a pedestrian you have full control of where and when you enter the road and so can better choose to avoid proximity to cars completely, lights controlled crossings etc in built up areas really help.

its all very well looking at safety figures saying how many collisions or deaths there are per mile travelled, but do we have the figures broken down for age \ gender etc, The majority of car \ pedestrian collisions I read about in the local papers are secondary school age boy in collision with a car on the road not the car mounting the pavement, normally running out suddenly without looking or deliberately playing chicken or cahsing a ball etc etc.

The majority of bicycle collisions we read about are adults who know better than to run across a road without looking, but we are out there amongst all that high speed heavy metal in the firing line.

I think the death statistics show cycling is far from a guaranteed death sentance but mile for mile I should think adult cyclists have more near misses with vehicles whilst cycling than whilst walking...

Do we have accident rates to compare for adults commuting foot vs bike? comparing apples to apples would give a more accurate picture. The more information we have from statistics the more faith we can put in them.
I am certainly very much more aware of my vulnerability on the road as a cyclist than I am as a pedestrian on the pavement.

BentMikey

We're not talking about near misses, or perceived dangers. If we were, then yes, cycling would top walking, but we aren't, and it doesn't. Instead we're talking about real deaths and serious injuries as recorded in the UK, and that shows that the two modes are roughly comparable.

DavidTQ

BentMikey wrote:

We're not talking about near misses, or perceived dangers. If we were, then yes, cycling would top walking, but we aren't, and it doesn't. Instead we're talking about real deaths and serious injuries as recorded in the UK, and that shows that the two modes are roughly comparable.

Comparable for overall figures but I would guess breaking the figures down would show that adult males are at greater risk of death and serious injury whilst cycling mile for mile than walking. That is just a guess based upon my own experience, and regular news reading...

Personally I feel its a manageable risk, one that I can reduce substantially through my own actions, but I do still feel more at risk than walking, not enough to put me off but enough to make me very very alert. I recommend cycling to anyone, but I would recommend paying more care, attention and stategy than when walking.

BentMikey

If you're going to talk breakdowns, then let's have them all for both cycling and walking.

I know I feel the need to be careful for both walking and cycling, and I've seen rather more pedestrians hit by a car than I have seen cyclists, which is what you'd expect given the relative numbers.

I wouldn't recommend paying any less attention when walking, that's for sure!!!!!!

DavidTQ

just cobbling together some statistics not had time yet to drill down to exactly what I want to find. Please note Obviously im looking for figures to back up my own "feelings" on the road use I havent went out of my way to drill down to the "ultimate" truth. The sites I quote are listed as I find them with my own comments and interpretations on eacha s I find them.

http://www.roadsafetyweek.org.uk/index.php?p=2

"In 2006, 169 children were killed on roads, of which 71 were pedestrians and 31 were cyclists. From this I gather that in total overall amongst children theres just over twice as many childre pedestrian kills than there were children cyclists kills."

These figures would suggest to me that mile for mile amongst children cycling is more dangerous than walking as I would guess that children cover more miles walking than cycling on average.

Further to that I found this topic :-

http://www.jrsm.org/cgi/content/abstract/99/8/402

"Taking into account distance travelled, there are about 50 times more child cyclist deaths (0.55 deaths/10 million passenger miles; 0.32 to 0.89) and nearly 30 times more child pedestrian deaths (0.27 deaths; 0.20 to 0.35) than there are deaths to child car occupants (0.01 deaths; 0.007 to 0.014"

Which says exactly that mile for mile cycling amonst children is far more dangerous than walking...

if thats the case for children and we say the overall figures for the country mean cycling is safer than walking then adults must be at far higher risk walking than cycling will attempt to find some more figures...

Maybe Ive shot down my own theory here will post again when Ive found more figures later. Certainly for this age group cycling is more deadly than walking mile for mile, will see what I can find on adults mile for mile later age groups would be nice as well there can be a fair difference in safety awareness between a 30 year old and a 18 year old or certainly in my case

DavidTQ

BentMikey wrote:

If you're going to talk breakdowns, then let's have them all for both cycling and walking.

I know I feel the need to be careful for both walking and cycling, and I've seen rather more pedestrians hit by a car than I have seen cyclists, which is what you'd expect given the relative numbers.

I wouldn't recommend paying any less attention when walking, that's for sure!!!!!!

Hmm well when Im walking I will happily walk down the pavement chatting about the weather or looking shop windows as I pass etc etc, and pay far more attention at junctions etc, I dont believe the super awareness is necesary when walking on the pavement as a pedestrian, I believe that just as much care is needed when actually crossing the road, but crossing roads is a far lower percentage of the distance travelled as a pedestrian than the "safe" part of walking on the pavement.