Wind Tunnel Testing - Would you use it?

aero blob

hi all

This question is aimed at Time Trial riders mostly - I know I'm posting it on the road section here - and also putting it on CTT etc. So please forgive me.

I know many road riders are testers too - It's nothing to be ashamed of!

We're just embarking on a really (I mean really really) exciting new project offering personal wind tunnel testing to cyclists and trithletes etc. I should say that we are Kinetic-One and Veloscience.

I'd really like to ask the forum membership if this is something that you'd be interested in using. partly this looks like shameless promotion (never!) but there's a serious question here too so please indulge us!

The idea is simple. There is so much talk of aerodynamics and speed and time saving and till now there has been no way for all but pro team cyclists to get measured to see whether they are in fact aerodynamic and whether their speed could be increased by making positional changes.

What we're doing is using the same specialists and equipment that the pro's get (at Shrivenham Wind Tunnel) targetted at amateur riders. it's unique in europe as far a we know - With Kinetic-One providing the bike fitting base and Veloscience the aerodynamics and power measurement expertise.

For details of what we're talking about please see http://www.kinetic-one.co.uk/).

The questions I'd like to ask are:

1. Would you want to use a service like this?
2. Its not cheap - Will cost a few hundred pound. - If you said yes to the first question does this make you change your mind (Its highly rigorous and specialised and tunnel time is pricey and we've got to make a living!)
3. Would you be prepared to travel to get to us - and to have to wait up to several weeks for your tunnel session? (to make it affordable we'd need to book up for whole days at a time).


We'd really appreciate your comments, thoughts and ideas

Andy
Kinetic-One

Please contact me through the forum or through http://www.shop.kinetic-one.co.uk/contact-us-2-w.asp

oldwelshman

I would use it if it was free, if not I would spend the money on a better pair of wheels and get some fat off my belly to be more aerodynamic.
By the way, last time I looked TT's were also on the road so not sure wht you mean by road riders also do testing.
Cost wise, anything more than £100 would be to much for me.
Can proably do something similar with a camera and software counting pixels for cross sectioanal area to determine most aerodynamic position, but then again that is not necessarily the best position as some riders may generat less power in most aero position so guess it is a matter of trail and errors for some.
I elieve David Millar rides in a position which is not his most "aero".

skavanagh.bikeradar

Blimey! If I had a lo-pro, regularly did 22 or less for a 10 even in the wind on a slow course, had all the gear, exhausted my own testing and setup options, lost as much weights as feasible without hurting power, had a power meter, then I might consider it if it cost £100. So, erm, no I wouldn't use it! I'm the wrong market. But three are probably a lot of people with pointy hats and disc wheels that'd want to give it a go perhaps a few people clubbing together to make it worthwhile and to use the full day?

kieranb

I wouldn't but then I don't TT, I would guess it depends on what you mean by a couple of hundred pounds. I don't think a few hundred is out of the reach of many. A good bike fit will cost about 100 pounds alone in some shops. People buy power meters for £1000 to improve their training so I think there is a potential market for you, especially people going for high PBs, club records etc

timoid.

Surely it only benefits professionals?

But then again for most riders there is no need to jump from Chorus to Record, but they still do it and shell out the readies.

edeverett

I'm not the market for something like this (although I like the idea), but I guess a lot of it would depend on what sort time differences people would get out of it. Can you show that your wind tunnel testing has increased people's performances?

(You might get a more positive response on weightweenies, propably more your target market?)

Ed

off the back

I think you have to consider that while it may be £x00 to do the test you then have to make the necessary changes. that could be anything from new frame to bars, helmet, skinsuit. I would be very surprised if you walked away without spending £1000 to fully implement the changes. Then the question is how much better will you be for all that - if you are 22min it may be as little as 30sec. So how deep are your pockets. I think you can go a very long way yourself. If you do some analysis of the pros positions (particularly similar sized pros to yourself) you will prob get a lot of the benefits.

kieranb

re the cost of equipment to take on board the changes, I would have thought people would do this when thinking about upgrading or getting a new bike? I got my bikefit done just prior to getting a new setup, makes sense that way.

aero blob

Thanks guys

Some interesting feedback!

Some of the most accessible and compelling research is highlighted by Cevelo - the conclusion is very clear and this is borne out by a growing body of scientific and empirical research. Well worth a read: See

http://www.cervelo.com/content.aspx?m=E ... rodynamics

Some interesting conclusions - and very quantifiable!

Very interesting too that the debate in some ways becomes focussed on whether to get aero equipment or a wind tunnel session - as if there might be an "either / or". ("Do i get some wheels,a fancy lid, a frame or a wind tunnel test") .

I'd like to ask those who referred to the aero-kit issue a question:

What made you choose your wheels, frame etc - Did you have scientific info to hand which demonstrated quantifiably that it made ahuge improvement. Or did you buy for other reasons. Did you buy for example because the pro's ride Zipp's or because they look really amazing. We really want to understand the factors that drive peoples decisions!

Our view is that the purchase of aero equipment needs to go hand in hand with a proper and testable use of it. Thats in terms of fit, position, aerodynamics, power, efficiency and of course not forgetting the much forgotten component... comfort! I f you use that fancy aero frame in a poor aero setup you will actually be slower than if you never had it in the first place! Also if you don't spot that a partly collapsed foot arch is causing your knee to track heavily and costing you huge amounts of avoidable power loss the it'll be worse still and you'lll end up injured too.

Thanks everyone for your comments. I think we'll certainly be working harder to describe the science behind the service and to convey that its about more than aerodynamics in isolation and more about the harmonisation of all the factors described above!

It's such a fascinating sport we're in isn't it!

Andy

off the back

I think thing is if you have a wide selection of equipment that people can try out then people would be more interested i.e. try out different frames (size and types) and equipment (bars etc) then it would be worth while. If you just go in with what you have and make modifications then your are a lot more limited in what you will achieve.

Good luck!

scherrit

Yup, as my event gets ridden off at 40mph plus (match sprint) I would be very interested in such a service!

I would have though t that a TT crazy island like this would yield lots of eager customers... especially if you have loads of aero kit on hand to try out!

Mike Willcox

If you can't afford a wind tunnel test or it's too much hassle then it might be worth investing in a large mirror.

Place your TT bike on the turbo, get on it and place the mirror in front of you. Then adopt the position which shows the least frontal area, keeping your back. straight and parallel with the floor.

Keeping this position if you can then ride at a level you would use in a TT then you can't be far off getting your position about right.

scherrit

Mike, I like the mirror idea, and with digital photography getting cheaper, it's easy to take a digital photo against a contrasting back ground and use software to work out the area..... the bloke in the US who runs biketechreview.com has used this method, and there is a bit of a write up on his web site....