Overtaking traffic queues...

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

Hi folks. I realise I’m falling into the classic newby trap of multiple postings but it’s great to find this forum.

Anyway, I’d be interested in your thoughts on dealing with traffic queues. I commute in Bristol, and some mornings my route in is little more than a 7.5 mile line of stationary traffic. When I first started I tried lots of ways to deal with this: ‘undertaking’ (squeezing between cars and the kurb); pavement (naughty I know: sorry); or even just sitting in the queue getting gassed. It was awful and dangerous. So awful and dangerous that I gave up for months.

I did come back to it. And when I did I started to overtake in the traffic in the middle of the road (sometimes for miles at a time). First time round this feels counter-intuitive and dangerous, particularly on thin bits of road. But once I got used to it it felt MUCH safer, and it’s certainly faster. I think the trick is that it forces other cars (esp. oncoming traffic) to pay attention and to deal with you properly… instead of trying to pretend you’re not there and taking liberties. You can also clearly see what's coming and taking evasive action in time if necessary.

What does everyone else reckon? Am I taking my life in my hands here (it doesn’t actually feel like it in practice but then again it only takes one bad head-on knock...)? Anyone else use this approach and been caught out? Any other tips for dealing with this kind of traffic?

jedster

And when I did I started to overtake in the traffic in the middle of the road (sometimes for miles at a time). First time round this feels counter-intuitive and dangerous, particularly on thin bits of road. But once I got used to it it felt MUCH safer

All of that is correct -it is the best way of filtering. The counter-intuitive bit is exactly right - lots of people put themselves in danger by doing things that "feel" safer but are actually more dangerous.

You missed an important reason why it is safer - drivers spend a lot more time looking in their offside than near-side mirrors - they are more likely to be aware of your presence if you go up the outside.

Porgy

I tend to use the centre of the road in traffic queues. I reckon its safer as its the mirror that drivers tend to use - so you're more likely to be seen. I do get trouble from motorcyclists who think that the middle of the road is their exclusive domain - but I have a couple of special words I use when they complain.

Belv

I hate it, but do use it on occasions.

Watch out for people coming out of junctions on the left and cars you are overtaking turning right, or doing u-turns. They are the ones that will kill you.

Assume you are 10 times more invisible than normal since they don't expect you to be there as well as just not wanting you on 'their' roads.

clanton

One other thing is beware of motorcyclists behind you, most especially when you first slip out between the cars into the centre of the road.

graeme_s-2

I find it always looks very narrow between the two lanes when you're sat in the queue of traffic, but once you pull into it you realise there's stacks of room and you're actually very safe.

Small Fish

I do both inside and outside filtering/overtaking - both have pro's and cons depending on speed of traffic and width/type of road.

Apart from cars deciding to turn right without indicating/looking one thing I've experiened though when passing on the out(correct)side is that it seems to provoke even more hostility from cars than undertaking does.
I've been beeped by oncoming traffic even though there's plenty of room and also on more than one occasion I've been stranded on the outside when traffic has started moving (faster than I'm cycling) and no-one will leave a gap to let me in.

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

Thanks all. Most reassuring and familiar.

The only other hazard I'd add is the cretin in the approaching traffic that deliberately swerves towards you to sh*t you up (or maybe to actually try and kill you. Who knows with some rush hour drivers....)

Porgy

Another hazard - buses in London don;t seem to recognise the white line down the middle of the road. I often find myself facing down a double decker coming at me at full pelt - only to swerve out of the way in the last second - followed by verbal abuse from the driver - I don;t suppose they ever hear my protests that I was on the correct side o the white line - unlike the bus.

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

Sea_Green_Incorruptible wrote:

Thanks all. Most reassuring and familiar.

The only other hazard I'd add is the cretin in the approaching traffic that deliberately swerves towards you to sh*t you up (or maybe to actually try and kill you. Who knows with some rush hour drivers....)

At times like this I find the "professional wobble" is the best form of defence and they soon move back over.

il_principe

I combine the 2 depending on circumstance. Never undertake an HGV or bus though, v v dangerous. As someone else poiunted out be v wary of scooters and motorcycles when filtering on the outside. London scooters can be a nightmare for this as many seem to have no road sense at all and hate the fact that bikes can be as fast or faster than them!

hamboman

Small Fish wrote:

I do both inside and outside filtering/overtaking - both have pro's and cons depending on speed of traffic and width/type of road.

Apart from cars deciding to turn right without indicating/looking one thing I've experiened though when passing on the out(correct)side is that it seems to provoke even more hostility from cars than undertaking does.
I've been beeped by oncoming traffic even though there's plenty of room and also on more than one occasion I've been stranded on the outside when traffic has started moving (faster than I'm cycling) and no-one will leave a gap to let me in.

Yeah that happens all the time to me, but it doesn't really bother me. just stay on the right if that happens. simple

marmitecp

Slow up as you filter past buses/high sided vehicles too. You'll find cars and peds appearing from gaps you can't see.

Bassjunkieuk

I just tend to try and find a way past, admittedly I prefer to use the outside (pavement) side but it really depends on if the person has left me enough room! I do love my road bikes narrower handle bars that let me cut into even smaller gaps then my wide barred MTB :-)

Most times I try to watch where other cyclist are going and follow the flow, after all they might have spotted a better line through the traffic, sometimes it pays off to follow them, other times I'm the faster one - but then that's part of the fun for me :-D

snooks

If there's room up the inside, I'll go up there, if there isn't I'll use the outside...making sure there aren't any bikers coming down. There are times when one is blocked or will be a squeeze, so I use the other

If the road is narrow and I'm going up the outside, I'll look for gaps in the traffic ahead and make it easily to the gap before the next wave of traffic comes thundering towards me.

I find it's all about looking ahead...no use tearing up the inside if it's blocked...likewise no good rushing down the outside then panicing about a gap as you play chicken with a HGV.

If there's a traffic island I'll go up the inside or take my place in a queue until there is room for me to pass.

One other thing to be aware of, is that if you're going up the outside, look out for peds who have just come off busses and are crossing infront of the bus to cross the road. Because the bus is in traffic they don't look right cos the only cars they are expecting are from the left...and conversly when you're going up the inside, peds who have crossed the empty lane of traffic and are walking through the stationary traffic and usually pop out the other side of a panel van or something else you can't see past. Why do they do that?

Whichever way you choose keep a good look well ahead of you really :0)

misterben

For me it depends on the situation. In most queues on my journey I'd probably filter up the left-hand side (assuming it's a queue at lights), but watching out for bus stops. One of my usual queuing points is in the runup to some lights where I am turning right - I sometimes overtake on the right hand side for those, although it's a bit of a tricky place (coming up the Broomielaw/Lancefield Quay to the squinty bridge, for those that know Glasgow) so I have been know to use the left hand lane in line with the traffic in that lane until I reach the right-hand turn (the exit has a bus/bicycle lane for me).

pst88

I usually pass stationary cars on the left but tried it on the right at some traffic lights today. I stopped just short of the car at the front of the queue and I knew he saw me in his mirrors. The second car could quite obviously see me because I was right in front of him. So then the lights change green and we all move off, the second car in the queue comes to undertake me but can't actually get past because I'm going as fast as the car in front. I'm then stuck next to him in the middle of the road and he won't let me in. I had to slow down and cut in behind him. He had nothing to gain by undertaking me, seems like he just wanted to piss me off. I don't think I did anything wrong?

TheFoolio888

I tend to filter between the lanes of stationary traffic on the way into work...on the way back filter between lanes while the traffic is still choca-block and the rest up the wide and very empty pavement.

The main problem I have with filter is when the lights change before I can get to the front of the traffic or I can move into a lane...I'm then stuck between two lanes with maniac drivers doing 40mph to get to the next set of lights...it's how do poeple cope with this?

DavidTQ

I actually dont tend to filter at lights I mainly filter through normal traffic queues (the bulk of my journey is along a road with bumper to bumper traffic along the entire route - no quiet patches etc. I only filter for as long as I can see I have definite space to pull back in. at lights I tend to wait in the queue in primary position rather than be on either the inside or outside of traffic that suddenly starts moving in a hurry.

I just dont feel comfortable pushing my way to the front to try to get away from the lights first, no problems overtaking cars in normal traffic where I can get through faster though. I think Ive just seen too many cyclists trying to push through with inchs to spare to pull alongside a car on that hasnt seen them with 0 room to spare at the lights themselves. Ive seen cyclists who have been having to lean their bike at the lights to avoide the wing mirror of the car at the front of the queue that theyve pulled alongside...

I like my space I far prefer to sit back in primary and wait a bit longer unless theres an advanced stop line. Then I will filter down and take my place in the cyclist box (next to 2 moped riders normally)

I prefer to ride to what I can see and plan moves well in advance if I cant see the safe ending of a manouvre Id rather sit back and wait. I am that night mare cyclist who moves out of the cycle lane and claims the entire main lane well in advance of a right hand turn rather than being forced into some dangerous manouvre trying to break though traffic at the last moment... I do tend to get very protective of "my space" on the road hence I would feel uncomfortable squeezeing along side cars to try to get through lights faster.

Cyclegent

This comes up quite a bit. You have to do what's safest at the time.

The problem with overtaking on the right is you're exposed to oncoming traffic as well as traffic on your left, plus you've got Judge Dredd on his motorised shell-suit or Jean-Pierre and Marie-Pascal on their flying hairdryers up your backside beeping you because you've dared enter 'his' lane (though they seem quite happy to go in bus lanes when they're not supposed to).

Cars and lorries don't seem to like being overtaken on the right either - I think they don't mind so much on the left, as in their minds that's the unofficial 'slow lane', but being overtaken on the right by a bike is like a BMW in the middle lane of the motorway being overtaken by a 1985 Austin Metro.

BentMikey

In general it's much more dangerous to undertake on the left. Don't necessarily feel you have to if there is a cycle lane either.

Getting back in across the traffic is just a matter of sensible negotiation. Every now and then you get a tosser like PST88's, but it's no problem to then go behind him. Looks like you did everything right to me there PST, well done!

Gambatte

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

I prefer to use the outside (pavement) side

Thats actually the inside..

DavidTQ

Managed to grab a picture of part of my commute run, showing that there is often more space on the outside than the inside, the picture obviously isnt taken at peak traffic time hence it not being very busy, but it shows what I observe on my cycle as normal car lane positioning.



Ive marked the edges of the pavement from the cycle lane as best as I can, the actualy width of this so called cycle lane is about 50cm... narrower than my bike... If im coming up from behind where do I want to be? in that narrow little cycle lane which drivers naturally love to be close to, and they dont know im there yet? or down that whacking great gap down the middle?

This isnt a one off, its the rule not the exception heres a few more pictures from the same road, the pavement can be hard to discern from the cycle lane, the cycle lane NEVER exceeds 70cm...

I wouldnt have wanted to have been undertaking this caravan, they dont indicate and they dont check their mirrors when they pull lthis manouvre folks!!



A few more just showing how often the cycle lane can be a far smaller and more dangerous space than the central area, again this isnt anything like rush hour traffice but the lane positioning is the same.







Theres tons of images like this from my route obviously not all drivers are so scared of knocking their wing mirrors, but the vast majority do drive to the left presumably to avoid wing mirror overlaps... Which when you look down from above you can see arent going to happen often. From the inside of that cycle lane it might look as if theres too little space between the traffic but once you get out there it doesnt half feel safer I prefer to be between the two lanes as the oncoming vehicles DO see you. Depending on the road it can be tight in the cycle lane and spacious out there.

It took me a while to get over my fears of being stranded out there, but as long as im carefull and keep looking for spaces to "slot into" Im fine.

Gambatte

Never more than 70cm? The CTC wanted to set 700/750mm(? – I KNOW its one of these) as the minimum distance to the kerb that you should be in the latest highway code. In other words, for my $0.02, you shouldn’t actually be in the cycle lane, just use it as a guide as to a ‘no go’ zone.

DavidTQ

Gambatte wrote:

Never more than 70cm? The CTC wanted to set 700/750mm(? – I KNOW its one of these) as the minimum distance to the kerb that you should be in the latest highway code. In other words, for my $0.02, you shouldn’t actually be in the cycle lane, just use it as a guide as to a ‘no go’ zone.

Yep its a pittiful attempt a cycling facility, from memory it was painted down the side of the road about 17 years ago... obviously courtesy of someone who didnt cycle... I do believe there were grants involved and a fair bit of trumpet blowing at the time... I dont remember find the road as scary before the cycle lane was installed...

I use the white line as a guide to roughly where my tyres should be... with my panniers doing their magic car repelling bit if Im being overtaken I tend to get a useable space but if it comes to passing slower vehicles im far better off out on the outside.

When im on a road without a cycle lane I would be further out than that white line for the cycle lane even if im in secondary position...

Gambatte

BTW, nice pictures

BentMikey

Nice job David!!

mea00csf

that doesn't even look like a cycle lane to me, it looks more like a road that used to have a suicide lane in the middle which they've then got rid of by narrowing the lanes using paint down the outside.
FWIW i'd stay well out (prob riding roughly along the white line) during normal cycling then overtake down the middle when the traffics going nowhere

graeme_s-2

For those that are worried about returning to primary/secondary position once the traffic starts moving, I find the best thing is to keep your head up and your eyes open, really paying attention to when the traffic starts to move. As soon as it starts moving you should be able to work out when you'll overtake the last stationary vehicle, as the vehicle in front moves off, but before the vehicle you've just passed starts to move, you nip into the space between them. It sounds a bit of seat of the pants, but it really isn't once you get used to it.

I agree with DavidTQ, from primary position there often doesn't look to be much room in between the two lanes, but once you move into it, it's really very, very spacious.

jedster

I'm then stuck next to him in the middle of the road and he won't let me in. I had to slow down and cut in behind him. He had nothing to gain by undertaking me, seems like he just wanted to wee-wee me off. I don't think I did anything wrong?

Well, with experience you are able to time things so that you fit back into the flow of traffic before/as the lights change. I would always tend to trade getting passed one more car for a comfortable slip into the line of traffic. Often just as the lights change is a good moment because generally as gap opens up between any two cars as the first accelerates and the second lags this a bit.

J