Cyclosport

Ken Night

What is going on over at Cyclosport?

Tales of threads and posts being deleted by the editor, the site being threatened "by significant others"

I saw a post this morning, by Booboo, formerly of this parish, saying that he was no longer going to organise the White Rose Classic because of what had been said there.

I emailed the editor who I've met several times, to find out what was going on.

He emailed back right away-to the effect that if I didn't like it, I could correspond on other forums

Can someone say what is going on...Richboy perchance?

LangerDan

They've certainly got more up-front with their marketing emails. Yet again I've just been offered the oppportunity to buy another DVD featuring Mike Cotty. I'm sure he's a very nice guy and is certainly a good climber but he must have some compromising pictures of the editorial staff of most cycling magazines in flagrante delicto with some Pyrenean mountain goats. He's everywhere!

vermooten

Ken Night wrote:

... Booboo, formerly of this parish, saying that he was no longer going to organise the White Rose Classic because of ...

That's our Booboo!

moray_gub

LangerDan wrote:

They've certainly got more up-front with their marketing emails. Yet again I've just been offered the oppportunity to buy another DVD featuring Mike Cotty. I'm sure he's a very nice guy and is certainly a good climber but he must have some compromising pictures of the editorial staff of most cycling magazines in flagrante delicto with some Pyrenean mountain goats. He's everywhere!

Yea was having a sneak flick through the comic in Asda this afternoon and the first page i turned to was advertisment for a DVD of Mike Cotty doing next years Etape route at least thats what i think it was . He seems to have created wee niche for himself as you say he really is everywhere, in fact im sure i saw him on the backbenches during PMQs today :-)

cheers
MG

Booboocp

I have been kicked off again, simply for suggesting he (Mark Harding) sets up a thread to discuss the issues. He is not interested and has his own agenda - anyone who asks a question that might expose his lies is kicked off. I know he is lying because he is trying to make out BC is "out to get him" or take over cycling.

This is the second post that was deleted:

I have received many emails and my thanks to all those who gave their best wishes to me and Caroline.

However - it seems many are (wrongly) thinking it is because of conflicts between myself and the organisation I do volunteer work for. I had to promise Mark not to get involved, so I'm limited with what I can say, but I'd like to say EXACTLY why I want to have no more to do with this whole affair, and cycling. My one hope is that I am not censored and this post deleted for having the common sense to speak out.

I am not taking sides here, because there should be no side to choose. If anyone thinks this post is aimed at either side - YOU ARE WRONG - I am simply stating the bleeding obvious.

Firstly, I still have not been given a valid reason or for that matter had it explained what is going on, other than that there is a conspiracy to take over the (cycling) world. Utter Tosh!!

Why I am leaving is because this should not even be happening, if people truly have the interests of cycling at heart, then they should be working together. There is plenty of room in the sport for each organisation to have their own way of doing things and still work together.

For the record I've never heard of the IACO, which given that my event was seen as the flagship of my organisation seems very strange don't you think? Furthermore it has been suggested that my event may change to become a 'model' for future events, again utter tosh!!

I can state that neither The White Rose Classic or The Ryedale Rumble have or will ever be considered a mass start event. In fact steps have been taken to make this less likely in 2008.

There really is a lot of rubbish being put forward and anyone who asks the wrong question is removed from this site. That has to change.

Mark - would it not be a good a good idea to discuss this sensibly and politely on this forum? creating a thread say called "Cyclosport - it's future" and putting any relevant information in there would mean people could make up their own minds and possibly resolve this dispute. Censoring is not the answer.

And finally I'd like to post an email I got from a man who I admire and respect for his tireless work for cycling. He is on the Board of my organisation (both regionally and HQ) and I can't think of anyone I have ever met who is more honest. The email for me says it all.

Hi Derek

What's all this about, Matt has just rung to tell me about your posting on the Cyclosport site?

He also rang me earlier to say that according to them "Third World War has just broken out"...what's the problem? I've had no info from HQ to say that there were any issues unless it's the on-line entry topic that has ruffled feathers.Certainly there's no intention in Manchester that I'm aware of to undermine them on the contrary there's a lot to be gained from working together.

I'm heading off early in the morning to Seville but will be in email contact. Please let me know what's happened.

Bob

R E Howden FRSA

vermooten

Could someone provide some background for the 99.9% of the rest of us who haven't the faintest idea what this is about?

andyp

vermooten wrote:

Could someone provide some background for the 99.9% of the rest of us who haven't the faintest idea what this is about?

I don't know how long you've been cycling Andy but this is typical of the ongoing internecine warfare that the British cycling community seems to be world leaders at.

Too often people get fundamental in their beliefs on the sport, then get a position of authority and screw it up for the rest of us. By the looks of this particular spat Mark Harding seems to have a problem with British Cycling and his belief that they are moving in on the nascent cyclosportif scene in the UK to govern it. He obviously doesn't like that.

But to take it to the point where a well respected and committed volunteer like Derek walks away is just insane. What a fucking mess.

Thanks Mark :roll:

andyp

These guys might be part of the problem. They might also be part of the solution;

http://www.ukcyclosportives.org.uk/

ash68

seems there is alot of cloak and dagger stuff going on at the website at the moment. Alot of insinuations about possible organisations muscling in, mass starts being brought in etc.Sadly no facts or explanations at present. I thin k we all need some clarity on the situation and find out who, has vested interests in the whole scheme of things. Totally agree with Booboo, things look alittle underhand at the moment and not very pleasant at all. All most of us want to do is ride our bikes and enjoy the events on offer, is that too much to ask?

wildmoustache

i think andy is on the money. I know people quite close to harding who say he is, well, difficult to work with. he was it seems a bit put out by the british cyclosportive and IMO looks to be making a bid to in some sense own UK sportifs ... but he's not cut out for it so i'm told.

LMAO at the Mike Cotty comments above ... just how many seconds had elapsed after the Tour route was announced before Mike and film crew rushed out to Pau?

Anyone want to add to the Cotty DVD collection ... it's a wrap!!

Ken Night

Well done Derek for keeping a copy of your post-best wishes to you and Caroline

I had a chat with Mark Harding at the Iron Mountain Sportif-he was very put out by an approach by British Cycling to buy him out/or otherwise to take him over.

His take on it was they they would restrict access to sportifs-I didn't really get that

I'll send an email to Mark, pointing to this thread-and asking him for his point of view

Booboocp

vermooten wrote:

Could someone provide some background for the 99.9% of the rest of us who haven't the faintest idea what this is about?

OK here goes, but it's a long read!!

It all started with me posting on his site that entries were now open for the WRC 2008. This post was removed without any consultation with me. So I innocently asked why? (at this time I had no idea what was happening behind the scenes) and was promptly banned from the site. After many emails went ignored, then phonecalls left by me to find out what was happening, he finally rang me (details below). I asked (actually I begged) if I could make a posting to say goodbye to all my friends, but because he didn't like what I said he deleted the whole thread and banned me again.

This was my post, can you see anything that warrants me being banned?

I have not been active lately because of serious health issues, in as much as both myself and my wife are fighting cancer.

I was thrown off this forum last night for simply asking what was going on, as no-one had mentioned anything to me about the current state of affairs (it seems I'm the only fool who didn't know!). I've now been given a (brief) idea of the situation and have to say I am not going to get involved. I am not interested in politics, all I wanted was to help others enjoy cycling.

I was hoping the White Rose Classic would become an event I was remembered for long after I'm gone, but sadly this will not be the case. I'm standing down, not just from this event, but from cycling altogether.

In fact the only link remaining will be me taking photographs at events in an attempt to bring bread to the table, as both myself and my wife will shortly be unable to work.

I appreciate that many people may be under pressure, but the way I have been treated has finally made up my mind that I should be putting myself and my family first.

Regards,

Derek Boocock (booboo)
Ex White Rose Classic Organiser
and excellent event photographer (please feel free to book me)
www.derekbphotography.co.uk

Andy, I have been shut out myself and don't know any more than the version of events given to me over the phone by Mark Harding, who runs the Cyclosport.org website.

He ranted over the phone at me that BC wanted to take over the UK cyclosport scene and turn all the events into mass start races, and that anyone entering would have to be a member of BC and that they just wanted money and were not interested in the sport.

I listened and tried to point out that I'm on the BC staff, organiser of their flagship event and go to many BC meetings, yet had never heard anything of what he stated. Furthermore I explained that BC Yorkshire made a loss from the White Rose Classic because we had spent too much money on cycling projects for youths and juniors. I pointed out that we had set up the UK's finest youth league here in Yorkshire as a result of the WRC, but he still thinks we are doing it for profit.

Truth is (some) people will beleive him on his website, because he will not allow anyone else to post and say he is mistaken. I can only ask you to re-read the above email from Bob Howden. He is on the board of directors of BC and if he says he thinks we should work together, does what Mark Harding is saying ring true?

I'll leave you all to decide.

I honestly think that it is all about money (specifically Mark Harding's money) because he has put a lot into his site and setting up an online entry system cannot have been cheap. His beef seems to be that BC have also set up an online entry system and he needs to be seen to have an excuse for ranting that BC want to rule the world. For heavens sake there is more than enough events for more than one operator isn't there? I mean look at timing chips, there are lot's of operators to choose from and no-one seems to have a beef with that.

PS - Mark is losing credibility fast, even people on his own team are now voicing their concerns privately to me.

If you've got this far, thanks for reading.

Bronzie

Booboo - sorry to hear of you and your wife's poor health - I'm sure everyone on here wishes you all the best in your fight against cancer. Also very sorry to hear of infighting in our sport (yet again) - I'm sure you could well do without this at this particular time.

Many thanks for taking the time to post the details of what seems to be at the bottom of this mess.

BC have no doubt (perhaps a little belatedly) seen which way the wind is blowing, and seen the huge growth in "non-competitive" events as the way ahead, and the best way to grow BC membership. They say as much themselves in their latest annual report. Whether their intention is really to "take over sportives" is however debateable. They are still the ones that provide the majority of event insurance, so they can hardly be left out of the party altogether.

I can therefore sympathise to some extent with Mark Harding's viewpoint as he has undoubtedly put in a huge amount of time and effort into developing the Cyclosport site into what is currently the best reference source for the UK Sportive market.

Hopefully, for the sake of the sport, a mutually agreeable settlement can be reached between them.

vermooten

Bronzie wrote:

Booboo - sorry to hear of you and your wife's poor health - I'm sure everyone on here wishes you all the best in your fight against cancer. Also very sorry to hear of infighting in our sport (yet again) - I'm sure you could well do without this at this particular time.

Many thanks for taking the time to post the details of what seems to be at the bottom of this mess.

+1

Don't let the fcuker(s) grind you down Derek.

dbg

Sounds to me like Mr Harding is getting a little too big for his boots (power corrupts?) his site is excellent but that's no excuse for going Stalinist.

nickwill

This whole dispute is extremely sad. I'm particularly sorry for Booboo, whose name will always be synonymous with the 'White Rose Classic. I rode it last year and thought it was one of the best organised events that I had ridden.
I also had the pleasure of riding the last few miles of the Fred Whitton with Derek in 2006, and enjoyed his company and his enthusiasm. If you are reading this Derek, please don't turn your back on cycling, you will be missed.
With regard to the Cyclosport website, I think Mark has had a huge positive impact on the growth of sportives in this country, both in terms of number and the quality. He has also provided an annual calendar which has enabled riders and organisers to plan their year.

I am a member of British Cycling, and am a great supporter of many of the things that they do, but do have some concerns about some of their recent interventions in the sportive world.
I feel that the 'British Sportive' was a long way from the spirit of the events that most domestic riders are used to riding. The sheer numbers involved, and the unchallenging nature of the route would make a poor template for future events. Likewise, the'Tour of Wessex' worries me in terms again of its scale, and its blurring of the boundaries between racing and sportive riding. The White Rose and the Ryedale Rumble however are totally within the spirit and format of the UK sportive scene.
Surely, we are all cyclists with many of the same aims. It would be a shame if this dispute escalated and led to long lasting damage within this growing area of the sport.
Both Mark, and Derek, have had important roles within the sportive world, we can ill afford to lose either of them.

Booboocp

Bronzie wrote:

I can therefore sympathise to some extent with Mark Harding's viewpoint as he has undoubtedly put in a huge amount of time and effort into developing the Cyclosport site into what is currently the best reference source for the UK Sportive market.

I thought Mark was a friend and I supported him, until a friend who has access to the Cyclosport site posted the following, which I find quite shocking:

Derek

I have been watching Marks forum & watched a couple of your posts dissappear within minutes, then the entire thread & the forum regs thread disappeared because of how nasty they made Mark look, especially when he wrote a "thanks now get lost" post on your farewell thread then replaced it with an "I have apologized version" as the tide turned against him.

I'm afraid their is no excuse whatsoever for that kind of behaviour.

Anonymous

Nickwill wrote:

This whole dispute is extremely sad. I'm particularly sorry for Booboo, whose name will always be synonymous with the 'White Rose Classic. I rode it last year and thought it was one of the best organised events that I had ridden.
I also had the pleasure of riding the last few miles of the Fred Whitton with Derek in 2006, and enjoyed his company and his enthusiasm. If you are reading this Derek, please don't turn your back on cycling, you will be missed.
With regard to the Cyclosport website, I think Mark has had a huge positive impact on the growth of sportives in this country, both in terms of number and the quality. He has also provided an annual calendar which has enabled riders and organisers to plan their year.

I am a member of British Cycling, and am a great supporter of many of the things that they do, but do have some concerns about some of their recent interventions in the sportive world.
I feel that the 'British Sportive' was a long way from the spirit of the events that most domestic riders are used to riding. The sheer numbers involved, and the unchallenging nature of the route would make a poor template for future events. Likewise, the'Tour of Wessex' worries me in terms again of its scale, and its blurring of the boundaries between racing and sportive riding. The White Rose and the Ryedale Rumble however are totally within the spirit and format of the UK sportive scene.
Surely, we are all cyclists with many of the same aims. It would be a shame if this dispute escalated and led to long lasting damage within this growing area of the sport.
Both Mark, and Derek, have had important roles within the sportive world, we can ill afford to lose either of them.

Couldn't say it any better myself...one of the best posts i've yet seen. Hopefully learnings will be made from this episode which will maybe allow for more communication in future before strong actions are taken! None of us are perfect and we can all be too sensitive and reactionary at times...especially for things we feel strongly about!

I simply can't wait for the White Rose Classic this year...(hopefully with derek steering the way)

Matt Payne

A thought................................


Do the thousands of riders countrywide make the sportive scene?

Do the hundreds of organisers & volunteers country wide make the sportive scene?

Do the many forum debates make the sportive scene?

Does any one person make the sportive scene?

IMVHO it is a mix of EVERYBODY!

Take away or change any one part & the end result will be different.

Evolution of the uk sportive scene is inevitable,
the manner WE ALL go about this will shape not only how each of us are percieved,
enlighten those around us to our true natures & motives,
but be instrumental in what the future becomes.

Matthew

Anonymous

Matt Payne wrote:

A thought................................


Do the thousands of riders countrywide make the sportive scene?

Do the hundreds of organisers & volunteers country wide make the sportive scene?

Do the many forum debates make the sportive scene?

Does any one person make the sportive scene?

IMVHO it is a mix of EVERYBODY!

Take away or change any one part & the end result will be different.

Evolution of the uk sportive scene is inevitable,
the manner WE ALL go about this will shape not only how each of us are percieved,
enlighten those around us to our true natures & motives,
but be instrumental in what the future becomes.
Matthew

Gosh

martincroxall

Always wondered why there wasn't a Spotives section in this forum and maybe with the Cyclosport issues maybe there should be. Cyclosport have done amazing things for the sportive scene but perhaps here would be a good place for more "open" discussion all things sportive?

Bronzie

Booboocp wrote:

I'm afraid their is no excuse whatsoever for that kind of behaviour.

Absolutely not, I agree....................Mark seems to be of the opinion "it's my website and I'll do whatever the hell I like with it". In which case, he's welcome to his website as far as I'm concerned.

I was just pointing out that BC took no real interest in involving themselves with the growing sportive scene until fairly recently. In the past couple of years, they have set up the "Everydaycycling" site, which is pretty much in direct competition with Mark Harding's site and also started organising their own sportif events. Putting myself in his shoes, if I had put in as much time and effort to set up Cyclosport.co.uk, I too would be a bit miffed if it appeared that BC wanted to join the party a bit late and take over. This doesn't mean I condone him acting like a spoilt child, and he's lost a lot of credibility already in my eyes from his actions.

Doom

Nickwill wrote:

I feel that the 'British Sportive' was a long way from the spirit of the events that most domestic riders are used to riding. The sheer numbers involved, and the unchallenging nature of the route would make a poor template for future events.

To be fair I feel that you are wrong. While the organisation left a lot to be desired it opened the door to a few more riders than ever before and is certainly the way forward for all events to be run in order to maximise bums on saddles!!

It only takes a quick look at the South African events or those more close to home on the continent with rides such as the etape or marmotte to realise that mass start timed events attract more riders.

nickwill

Doom wrote:

Nickwill wrote:

I feel that the 'British Sportive' was a long way from the spirit of the events that most domestic riders are used to riding. The sheer numbers involved, and the unchallenging nature of the route would make a poor template for future events.

To be fair I feel that you are wrong. While the organisation left a lot to be desired it opened the door to a few more riders than ever before and is certainly the way forward for all events to be run in order to maximise bums on saddles!!

It only takes a quick look at the South African events or those more close to home on the continent with rides such as the etape or marmotte to realise that mass start timed events attract more riders.

To me that is the problem. The best British events have a maximum of 1000 riders, often many fewer. I don't subscribe to the view that bigger is better, particularly on British roads.
The lower traffic densities and more positive public attitudes make things somewhat different elsewhere. The best British events are relatively low key and low impact. I worry that we could end up with an equivalent to the marathon/half marathon boom, including cyclists dressed as rhinos. A once much respected half marathon, the Great North Run, has alienated many club runners as it has become a more and more commercial enterprise. I think too many mega events would bring about the demise of the sportive boom, because the great British public wouldn't stand for it, and a backlash would ensue. As I said earlier, I applaud British Cycling's involvement in events such as the White Rose and the Ryedale Rumble, but the British Sportive worried me for the above reasons.

Matt Payne

I don`t think that taking an event that co-incided with the rare occurance of the only TDF full stage in the uk for the last 10 years as an indicator of BC policy is reasonable!

Yes the Great British Cyclo Sportive followed the continental model, yes it certainly got new bums on saddles, yes it provoked a huge amount of positive media attention on the sport but given that the vice chair of the BC board is the organiser of the Ryedale Rumble & heavily involved with the WRC is that a more significant indicator of BC involvement?

I would also like to ask............Ok there were flaws to the Great British Sportive (do people really think BC are not going to be aware of these? Most of the BC staff were there to see them for themselves!) but given that the event sold out are people saying that next time (if ever) the tdf has a stage here there shouldn`t be a British Etape? Do you not want 5000 people riding there bikes?

Matt?

Ken Night

To get back to my OP....

I've had a number of emails (though no further reply from Mark Harding)

If there has been a "power struggle", it's because some rationalisation of the sportif scene is needed

That said, Mark's site went a long way in that direction, but was unable to control/police the quality/quantity of events-and possibly people didn't like the control he was exerting, and he sought to deal with their response in a robust manner

IMHO what will happen (and is needed) is a league, or more than one league of sportifs (as in France), and they would have different

The IACO would appear to be addressing that need and it appears they are aligned with Mark

(I notice the Dartmoor Classic appears on cyclosport and has British Cycling branding)

I don't understand why the point about mass starts

bobh

Hi I'm Bob Howden the Ryedale Rumble Organiser, crew member on the WRC and also for my sins a Director of BC and Chair of its Yorkshire Region. During the "blow up" I've been out of the country on business and so like many I've tuned in thoroughly bemused by some of the postings the removal of postings and so on on the Cyclosport website. Like many people with a BC title I'm a volunteer who never draws a penny from the sport. There have been a number of issues raised that I feel a "horses mouth" response is perhaps overdue.

1) We are all cyclists hopefully trying to develop our sport. The WRC and the Rumble aim to transfer their proceeds into getting kids off the streets and onto bikes. We haven't done too badly so far. In two years we have established the White Rose Youth League that now attracts 60 kids per night into a racing and coaching environment. Aside from this we also promote the Ryedale Grand Prix Premier Calendar Road Race that for 2008 will again be the National Road Race Championship, we also support our "independent" organisers in a wide ranging calendar of events. Funding for this is however achieved separately from the Sportive events. BC Yorkshire isn't a clique it's comprised of elected members who in turn get their chance to speak Nationally at our National Council tomorrow.

2) The Everyday Cycling brand shouldn't be seen as a threat to Cyclosport and in particular Mark Harding unless he wishes it to be that. The brand is about a much wider agenda than Sportives. Rather than being a threat it should be viewed as a portal feeder for newcomers into cycling who can then take the various routes available to them. Cyclosport is in fact a route that could benefit rather than be threatened. I understand that there are issues with the online entry formats, but BC has made no secret that it is trying to move towards a general online facility for all its services. Equally the Cyclosport website has only recently appeared to move towards a more commercial model that would appear to compromise its ability to accept postings from BC linked sources. These are issues that can be addressed by meaningful dialogue and not by teddy throwing.

3) A good many of the events posted on the Cyclosport website feature prominent BC members on their organisational teams at both Regional and National Board levels and why not. Thre's no hidden agenda here just a group of people trying to do their best for the sport and in most cases like me paying considerably for the privelege.

So come on guys let's take a reality check before all of this get's out of hand. I've not spoken to Mark but would be happy to do so at anytime he wants. In the meantime can we please restore some normality. In the absence of postings elsewhere I can confirm that The Rumble will be going live within the next few weeks and will feature On-line entries in addition to postal ones. It will follow the same structural format as last year with an even more challenging route that starts with Boltby Bank. Watch www.bcyorkshire.co.uk for further news and the link when it's live to the new website.

Cheers

Bob Howden (bobh)

ricadus

As an occasional user of the website I appreciate its value as an information-sharing hub, but personally have no interest in buying branded cyclosport.org kit etc.

I suppose the website is filling a gap caused by the absence of a focussed "sportives"magazine, such as Italy's Cicloturismo, that has feature articles and listings for all the following month's gran- and medio-fondo events, lots of adverts featuring pro-racers but no actual racing news or articles (unless you consider fondos pretend races).

I suppose, as a kind of middle-man, there is a risk to Cyclosport of diminishing future interest from cyclists, as UK sportive organizers (including ambitious bike shops like Evans) get organized with well-designed websites and alternative comprehensive information becomes available elsewhere (via the national cycling federation, for example).

leghurty

I've been reading the threads people are discussing here and at cyclosport and it looks like cyclosport may have some issues with how they moderate and maintain a neutral and balanced standpoint in UK cyclosportives - not just on the forum but right across the board.

I tend to use forum's where there are more moderators and they tend to let people just get on with saying what they want(within reason) - maybe the moderators are even asleep! Perhaps Bike Radar will now see even more cyclosportive discussion here due to this situation at cyclosport.

This and veloriders.co.uk are pretty well moderated in my humble but the latter tend not to cater very well for this growing aspect of cycling (yet!).

Bronzie

Don't mention the C-word on Veloriders - it probably falls foul of their aggresive *CENSOR* filter anyway

Doom

Nickwill wrote:

To me that is the problem. The best British events have a maximum of 1000 riders, often many fewer. I don't subscribe to the view that bigger is better, particularly on British roads.

More bums on saddles = greater awareness = greater acceptance by road users whether in an event or just out training. To me that would seem to be a win win situation.

Nickwill wrote:

I think too many mega events would bring about the demise of the sportive boom, because the great British public wouldn't stand for it, and a backlash would ensue.

Again I disagree. Look at your marathon example... It becomes a festive day out for participants as well as spectators. So what if someone was to ride/run in a Rhino outfit as long as the money goes to a good cause I am all for it!!

What is required is a greater level of organisation ensuring that the 'fast' riders are at the front and the rhino is at the back. That can be achieved as I have seen it done even in a 3rd world country such as South Africa.

Until such time cycling will be seen as elitest and open only to a minority of hard core riders and we all will continue to be marginalised on the roads.