Riding out of the saddle/spinning/walking!

carlstone

Following on from a current post about double/triple quandry I have another question.

I have a slicked MTB commuter with a triple and a racer with compact double (34x27 low gear). No local hill has beaten me on the MTB as I just bang it in granny gear and spin up. However I have not attempted the Nick of Pendle or Ramsbottom Rake on my racer for fear of getting halfway up and having to walk the rest.

The question is how do you get up a longer steep hill on a racer. I don't mind getting out of the saddle but am getting burnt out after about 100 pedal revs and so sit back down (on my triple) drop down 2-3 gears and spin. The lowest gear on the racer obviously isn't low enough for me to do this. In fact I usually spin from the bottom of the hill on my MTB to conserve my energy.

Is it just a case of getting fitter or is there something I am missing?

Cheers.

Ps. I won't put a triple on my Planet X as its only these extreme (for me) hills that would cause me concerne and I can avoid them but would prefer not to.

PhilofCas

doing 100 revs stood up is a decent effort, so this indicates to me you're reasonably fit, i'd try an effort of perhaps half this on the racer, do this then sit down for maybe twice that, then another stood up effort (whatever you can muster) then sit down again for a period, just mix it up like this, just stick in pretty much the lowest gear your PX has, i wouldn't feel too disappointed at failing on a hill, maybe just turn round and head downhill if you can't crack it on the first attempt

fossyant

I know the Nick and the Rake are steep, but you need to build core body strength as well - I got up Holme Moss on a 39 x 21 on the best bike easily on Sunday - but it was an out of saddle "honk" as they call it.

More hill training, bigger gears, cos you'll need to build up hand/grip and upper body strength, otherwise you are goosed..... your hands arms will pack in before legs... I'd never have got up earlier this year..

Long hard drags are the best training for the short nasty shocks like the Rake

MTB/Road bike climbing is different totally...

oldwelshman

Your doing about right.
The hills I train on I know how many pedal revs for each section so it is easy to judge efforts and 100 is pretty good for balls out effort if thats what you mean
You can try different things.
Sometimes I ride out of saddle for 400 revs but at less effort, other times I ride entire climb in saddle, sometimes I do max effort 100 revs at top.
It all helps as sometimes you will need to adapt climbing style

carlstone

Thanks for all the tips. 100 revs is definitely my max, absolutely sh4gged out effort, so I tend to knock off after 80 so there is some left to knock back a couple of gears and sit and spin.

The problem I find is that I want to be in a higher gear when out of the saddle than when spinning and I hate crunching through gears when under load. This means that say at the bottom of the hill the hill will start ramping up so I start spinning, then I want to get out of the saddle so I need to change into a higher gear I have to back off (so as not to cruch the gears) so I then loose momentum. I suppose the question is is it all right to crunch through the gears when under load. It sounds like it is doing damage to me, or am I being too mechanically sympathetic.

Or is the answer to stop in the same gear when in or out of the saddle so it will feel too 'easy' when out of the saddle and too hard when spinning and just get used to it?

Cheers.

Carl.

PhilofCas

i hear other people crunch their gears but i don't like it personally, though i do change gears on hills occasionally i lighten the load in the drivetrain at the critical moment, practice this and you should be able to change without a crunch,

OldWelshman - 400 revs out of the saddle, praise where praise is due !!!!!!

Bronzie

carlstone wrote:

then I want to get out of the saddle so I need to change into a higher gear I have to back off (so as not to cruch the gears)

Changing to a higher gear (releasing the rear mech to a smaller sprocket at the back) can be done under a bit of load, but you do have to lighten pressure thro' the pedals just a little.

Changing to a lower gear (moving to a larger sprocket on the rear) requires the chain to ramp up over the teeth of the larger sprocket, and you need to back off pressure on the pedals a bit more than changing down.

With practice, you should be able to change up and down on hills (unless very steep) without grinding your gears.

oldwelshman

I go with Bronzie. I also ease off on the pedals when changing up or down.
Sometimes to change down, you may have to accelerate to be able to do this, but hopefully you can judge when to do it a bit sooner

By the way, I cannot do 400 revs out of saddle max effort, that is sort ot between sat twiddling and balls out

oldwelshman

wow I just hot the millenium mark of 1000 posts

peanut

oldwelshman wrote:

wow I just hot the millenium mark of 1000 posts

congratulations ....guess you'll be retiring now then lol....

Monty Dog

Sadly, the only way to improve your hill climbing skills is to practise them! Style of riding is very much dependant upon the gradient of the hill and your ability to generate and sustain power. Generally, you can produce more power whilst out of the saddle, but often the increased effort tires you out quicker - being able to fluidly swap styles and change gears is the key, to both cope with changes in gradient and to give muscle groups a rest. Using a power meter, I've found that getting out the saddle can provide an extra boost of 100 watts plus - useful for making breaks or changes in gradient. Until recently it was considered that seated climbing was more efficient, but recent research suggest little difference between the two - but maintaining higher levels of effort will obviously tire you out quicker. Being able to judge your intensity against the gradient and length of hill is key and there's nothing like riding everyone off your wheel on a long hill to give you satisfaction.

carlstone

Thanks for all the advice guys. In a nutshell it seems I need to practice my gear changes and get out and hit the hills.

Chhers.

Carl

alfablue

Good answer from Monty Dog. My preferred approach to steep hills (except very short ones) is to select the right gear at the start (probably lower than you think you need at first), stay seated, and especially keep calm and as relaxed as possible - Its very much a mental thing for me. Over the weeks on the same hills you will find you may be able to use a higher gear for the same hill. I find that I pay severely for any out of saddle work. My guess is that by not getting shaged out by too much effort early on, setting a lower initial pace may mean you time for the whole hill will be similar or better than going all out, then losing power. On group rides I have often come from the back of the field to overtake everyone by setting a steady slower pace at the start (okay - not ridden with particularly hard core riders).

If you are not keen to change your chainset on the road bike, how about a cassette change, easy and quick to do, a lot cheaper, and you can readily change back later or for flatter rides.

scapaslow

The 2 hills that you mention were recently featured in a top ten killer climbs in the UK article in C+.
The Nick O'Pendle is a steady climb and has 140m of climbing over 1.9km with nothing too steep whereas the Rake is shorter and steeper (25%) in places and has 98m of climbing in 0.875km and seems to have a steep section about a third of the way and a very steep finish. So there ought to be a chance to recover between these points. You really shouldn't have any problem with the gearing you are using 34/27. A standard triple wouldn't give you many more lower gears than that.

The article was really about Hill Climb races and in it Chris Boardman states that he preferred a fixed gear bike for such events with a gear higher than you would normally use on a geared bike because of higher cadence. He also advocates short and meduim interval work as preparation.

The main point he made was timing - don't blow up to soon. Keep some energy in reserve for the second half of the climb or the really hard bits. So it may suit you to keep seated early on and keep the out of the saddle efforts only for the really steep sections?

Personally, i find that if i spin too easy a gear early on it seems to make things worse when a hill steepens and psychologically it's good to know that when you get to the really steep sections you still have a couple of sprockets left if needed. You'll definitely need to be able to change gears on the hill both ways.

An example of a local 'Killer' climb to me is Castle Campbell in Dollar (Central Scotland) which has 150m of climbing in 1.2km with sections of 30% increasing to the top. I have compact gearing of 50/34 with 12-25 cassette. I've never yet made it to the top but i have improved on how far i can go in the few times i've tried it. My best attempt has come when sitting down till over halfway then getting out the saddle with a couple of sprockets left. I must admit i hate trying to change down as the road steepens and i slow down finding myself zigzagging just to keep going and then just stopping. One day i'll make it :!:

There's no getting away from the pain and effort involved.

alfablue

Slight word of warning for really extreme hills, I damaged my achilles tendon on a long, steep hill in Wales during the summer when I just refused to get off and push (mind you, the bike was fully loaded for touring). I have now made a mental note not to let my "mind over matter" (or stubborn) approach to take over from common sense, and possibly lack of training!