Et tu, Miguel?

andyp

Deejay - I'm not arguing with you but I think we have to be of the view that as bystanders to all of this we have no idea who doped or what they took. We can have suspicions but unless someone confesses we just don't know.

When Moser beat the Hour Record in Mexico City in 1984 he was coached by Francesco Conconi, who was assisted by Michele Ferrari. My educated guess would be that they used blood doping to do this (and the Wikipedia entry on Moser claims he admitted as much in 1999, personally I have no recollection of this). Given their success here you have to wonder who else they worked with and when.

I think EPO was first used around 1989 and, by 1991 was fairly widely used and there is testament to support this from riders of the time, i.e. Peter Winnen. Ferrari made his name around this time but personally I don't know who either he, or Conconi, were working with before then or what methods they were using.

iainf72

Didn't Conconi advise Indurian before his first Tour win?

I know he told him to "lose weight" certainly and I'm sure helped him out with preperation.

Martin Van Nostrand

deejay wrote:

Yup I agree and saw a ANDY GREWAL (or somefink) out sprint Steve BAUER in the 84 event which I thought odd at the time. Whatever happened to him but Steve we all know as a gutsy (unlucky) rider.

That's Alexi Grewal. He was caught doping at the Coors race in 1983 and the UCSF did every political trick to get him back racing (sounds familiar?). US had a huge doping program in 84 (as did Canada).


http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm


He's no longer riding, but a (literally) toothless hippie living in a commune in the American southwest.

skavanagh.bikeradar

SEE! That's what drugs do to you!

deejay

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

deejay wrote:

Yup I agree and saw a ANDY GREWAL (or somefink) out sprint Steve BAUER in the 84 event which I thought odd at the time. Whatever happened to him but Steve we all know as a gutsy (unlucky) rider.

That's Alexi Grewal. He was caught doping at the Coors race in 1983 and the UCSF did every political trick to get him back racing (sounds familiar?). US had a huge doping program in 84 (as did Canada).


http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm


He's no longer riding, but a (literally) toothless hippie living in a commune in the American southwest.

Wow OK I give up and I concede.
You see I'm just a dumb sports spectator and new to this internet research vehicle and so I bow to the evidence you have produced.

I still feel the turning point in the continental road racing scene was when Riss took off up that mountain in 96 and that shook Indurain, that a non climber could achieve that performance. He got out of it but now I see you could be right.
I shall dream on though!!!!!

I still feel the place to draw a line is the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Prior to that it was all about one nation and another getting Olympic/World Championship Medals in the Amateur Sports, and thanks for the input.

bigdawg

Martin Van Nostrand wrote:

deejay wrote:

Yup I agree and saw a ANDY GREWAL (or somefink) out sprint Steve BAUER in the 84 event which I thought odd at the time. Whatever happened to him but Steve we all know as a gutsy (unlucky) rider.

That's Alexi Grewal. He was caught doping at the Coors race in 1983 and the UCSF did every political trick to get him back racing (sounds familiar?). US had a huge doping program in 84 (as did Canada).


http://www.stanford.edu/~learnest/cyclops/grewal.htm


He's no longer riding, but a (literally) toothless hippie living in a commune in the American southwest.

Isnt he also Rishi Grewall's dad??

oldskoolkool

aurelio wrote:

OllyBianchi wrote:

One of the problems with looking in the past and attempting to decide who was clean and who was not is that, doped or not, Merckx, Hinault, Indurain and Armstrong were all physical freaks. Merckx had the biggest lungs ever, Hinault's thighbones were longer than they should have been, Indurain had an oversized heart and Armstrong had a huge capacity to process lactic acid.

Armstrong was not the 'One in a million' rider it was claimed. I would take off the rose-tinted and stars and stripes framed spectacles and take a look at all the data presented at the SCA hearing showing why this is such a myth. I also wonder why such a 'physical freak' was only capable of finishing one of his first 4 Tours, and that over one and a half hours behind the winner! True Tour-winning natural talent usually makes itself apparent a little quicker than that! (I don't deny that Armstrong was a gifted one-day specialist).

What brought about the incredible increase in Armstrong's abilities post-cancer? The effects of chemotherapy? Come on! Next you will be claiming that if Ullrich (a genuinely exceptional athelete by all accounts, even if he was a doper) and so on had only done a bit of chemo rather than using Epo, steroids, blood doping and all the rest they might have beaten Armstrong!

Iv'e gotta agree with this view in that how many of the TDF winners have poor or mediocre TDF results in the early parts of their career only to suddenly produce dominating performances later on whereas Greg Lemond was 3rd in his first tour,then 2nd(and arguably could've won) in his second and then won at his third attempt.He was also 2nd in the world road race in '82 when only 20yrs old and won it the following year '83,the year before he completed and finished 3rd in his first tour.This shows what a true champion is made of...natural ability from an early age not like some of the riders who followed him,coming from relatively nowhere to be the best.

DaveyL

Yep, and Ullrich was 2nd in his first tour....

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Yep, and Ullrich was 2nd in his first tour....

Would he have been without chemical help though - Answers on a postcard...

DaveyL

Apparently he doesn't count, cos he was a nice guy and loved eating pies, boozing and dropping the odd eccy in the close season....