braking from the hoods

benny2891

Apologies for the really naive question.

I just went out on my spankin new Giant SCR3. I think I've got everything set up properly, but I'm not stopping quickly when I brake from the hoods. It's as if my hands aren't able to apply enough pressure to the levers. I can stop just fine from the drops, and there is just a few millimetres between the rim and the brakes. This makes me think it's not an adjustment issue.

I'm only wondering because up to this point, I've only ridden v-brakes on my old Ridgeback Cyclone.

Should I be able to "endo" from the hoods?

mea00csf

your hands aren't in a great position to be able to pull brake levers hard from the hoods. I can't quickly stop myself dead from the hoods, takes me a second or two to stop dead, but you should be able to stop yourself relatively quickly

Garybee

It's not as easy to apply pressure to the levers with your hands on the hoods. There is usually a disclaimer with brake parts to this effect telling you to ride on the drops. If it really bothers you you could fit cyclocross levers which work in conjunction with the drop bar levers.

Eat My Dust

Your hands will get used to it, when I first started riding my road bike(s), the muscles between my finger and thumb use to ache like hell after even short rides from the effort of trying to brake efficiently, now I don't notice any difference between the hood and drops when it comes to braking.

redddraggon

Eat My Dust wrote:

I don't notice any difference between the hood and drops when it comes to braking.

Same here, never had any problems braking from the hoods.

benny2891

Thanks for the replies.

Looks like things are set-up properly, and I just added another set of muscles that need working on. Like I didn't have enough of those already...

i might go for the cross type levers at some point. I can see that they would be handy for commuting, etc.

Would upgrading to better blocks help in the meantime?

ColinJ

benny2891 wrote:

...there is just a few millimetres between the rim and the brakes. This makes me think it's not an adjustment issue.

I prefer to leave a bigger gap than that. I think pulling more cable gives you better modulation (fine control) of the brakes and I also think I can brake harder with the brakes set up like that.

I don't have particularly strong hands but I can do all but full emergency braking with just one finger on the front brake lever from the hood.

Going down the sort of long steep hills we have in Yorkshire I do prefer to have my hands on the drops though because it is too tiring trying to continuously exert enough force from the hoods.

amircp

Changing brake pads may help? I had this problem with my new bike until I changed the pads arfter they wore out (in the Lakes!).

McBain_v1

Get some Kool Stops on your bike, they make a difference.
I wouldn't want more than a few mm between brake block and rim, I think that nearly all of my bikes are set up to have less then 2mm space - more than that is just wasteful!

Clever Pun

redddraggon wrote:

Eat My Dust wrote:

I don't notice any difference between the hood and drops when it comes to braking.

Same here, never had any problems braking from the hoods.

they obviously have small hands

redddraggon

Clever Pun wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Eat My Dust wrote:

I don't notice any difference between the hood and drops when it comes to braking.

Same here, never had any problems braking from the hoods.

they obviously have small hands

I don't get that, my hands aren't small, I must just have good grip strength.

richardast

After years away from road bikes, I found braking from the hoods a bit disconcerting.
I can certainly get the pressure to stop, in fact, if a sudden stop is required then the elevated position sometimes makes me feel like I might go over the top of the bars.
If I'm going really quick I make sure I'm on the drops for exactly that reason, arse planted very firmly on the seat gives the back wheel better grip and more efficient braking.

fossyant

All about practice and muscle training - I can stop almost as fast on the hoods as in the drops...

Practice makes perfect !!!

Find some stop start rides, like your commute, and hey presto... !

peanut

If you have to use the drops to stop satisfactorily it sugests that you may either have the wrong brake shoes fitted or the brakes are not set up to suit you.
make sure that the levers move a reasonable amount before the shoes hit the rims or the lever action will not be working effectively for you. You need a reasonable amount of travel. The closer the levers get to the bars the more advantage the pivots will give you especially if you have a short reach or lack strength in your fingers.

I would simply adjust the brake shoes clearance on the brake adjusters and experiment.

sloxam

i have an ocr 2 which will have the same/better brakes (tektro) than your scr 3. i upgraded to ultegra pads and they're still sh*t. on my old bike i had 105 brakes and they were much better.

peanut

sloxam wrote:

i have an ocr 2 which will have the same/better brakes (tektro) than your scr 3. i upgraded to ultegra pads and they're still sh*t. on my old bike i had 105 brakes and they were much better.

would it surprise you to learn that bike brake shoes are engineered to wear out your bike rims as much as to pull you up ? I could fit a 25 year old rubber block to your brakes that would outlast and out brake modern brake shoes and cause zero wear to the rims ... but Shimano are not going to sell many wheelsets and brakes with that are they ! Mmmm

vermooten

I keep the gap twixt brake block and rim at about 1mm. I've bene riding for just a tickle over 2 years now and have only just started ot get used to braking from the drops - incredible I know. And my brakes never seem to have much effect when it;s raining, just a kind of benign influence on my speed.

Fab Foodie

Change to Koolstop Salmons, I replaced Ultegra blocks with Salmons and the difference is unbelievable, waaay better particularly in the wet.
Really simple, cheap and effective upgrade.
Don't collect much grit either.

crackle

How do you do it? I only have small hands but I keep my thumb on the hoods and my fingers spread down the levers. My thumb is not wrapped around the top but the side.

This way I can reach the ends of the levers with my fingers which gives me maximum leverage and braking force. If I wrap my thumb around the top I can't get as much leverage.

similarly I don't keep my brakes super close to the rim for the same reason. As I squeeze the levers, the further into the bar they go the more leverage, hence force, I can get on them. If the brakes are too close I can't get the same force, though I imagine someone with larger hands wouldn't have this problem.

Going downhill I brake from the drops and sometimes even adopt a weird lopsided, one hand on hoods, one hand on drops technique (in the wet when I need more force on the rear).

Aidocp

vermooten wrote:

I keep the gap twixt brake block and rim at about 1mm. I've bene riding for just a tickle over 2 years now and have only just started ot get used to braking from the drops - incredible I know. And my brakes never seem to have much effect when it;s raining, just a kind of benign influence on my speed.

I only had my road bike since May but I still feel more comfortable braking from the hoods too, so I know how you feel

peanut

shimano STi levers have adjusting pads you can insert to increase/decrease the distance of the levers from the drops

dazzawazza

Fab Foodie wrote:

Change to Koolstop Salmons, I replaced Ultegra blocks with Salmons and the difference is unbelievable.

I agree. My brakes used to be awful until I changed to Koolstop Salmons.
Now they're just as good as the V-brakes on my MTB (fitted with Koolstop as well).
When I’m on the drops I now have to be careful not to lock-up when braking.

For £13.00 (£6.50 pair) it will be the most cost effective upgrade you'll make on the bike.

Fab Foodie

dazzawazza wrote:

Fab Foodie wrote:

Change to Koolstop Salmons, I replaced Ultegra blocks with Salmons and the difference is unbelievable.

I agree. My brakes used to be awful until I changed to Koolstop Salmons.
Now they're just as good as the V-brakes on my MTB (fitted with Koolstop as well).
When I’m on the drops I now have to be careful not to lock-up when braking.

For £13.00 (£6.50 pair) it will be the most cost effective upgrade you'll make on the bike.

Actually, I use Salmons on the front and blacks on the rear...otherwise I'd be forever flat-spotting the rear PR2.

On my 40mph ave descent of Ventoux the braking power of this combination was phenomenal

crackle

peanut wrote:

shimano STi levers have adjusting pads you can insert to increase/decrease the distance of the levers from the drops

yup! I don't have any yet but I intend to get some which, exactly as you imply, will mean I can keep my brakes closer to the rim and still get the leverage I need with small hands.

SteveR_100Milers

Just keep practicing. Braking from the drops and the hoods should be equally effective. Then again, there are no rules, whatever works best for you use it.

benny2891

I'll try some Kool Stop salmons. Extra stopping power in the wet is always welcome in sunny Glasgow...

I'll also play around with my positioning on the hoods to see that makes any difference.

Thanks for all the advice!

richardjallen

ColinJ wrote:

benny2891 wrote:

...there is just a few millimetres between the rim and the brakes. This makes me think it's not an adjustment issue.

I prefer to leave a bigger gap than that. I think pulling more cable gives you better modulation (fine control) of the brakes and I also think I can brake harder with the brakes set up like that.

I hope someone who knows physics can back up the argument that you will probably be able to apply more pressure once you have already begun to close your grip on the breaks. Think of a weight lifter squatting down to lift a bar-bell. I think perhaps due to leverage that the muscles become more effective once they the lifter has begun to stand up. So I suggest it follows that when your hand is stretching to grip the break from the hood you will not be able to apply as much force as once you have begun to squeeze it. Some initial slack would be useful.

pw1brown

I had the same concerns about braking from the hoods when I switched from flat bars and V-brakes. Ergonomically there is no way you can exert as much force from the hoods, because you're not pulling the levers directly, but at an angle to the plane of your palms. But actually you don't normally need much force to brake, so you soon get used to using the brakes from the hoods most of the time. Try to anticipate to avoid emergency stops. I still haven't got that sussed myself.

Panter

peanut wrote:

sloxam wrote:

i have an ocr 2 which will have the same/better brakes (tektro) than your scr 3. i upgraded to ultegra pads and they're still sh*t. on my old bike i had 105 brakes and they were much better.

would it surprise you to learn that bike brake shoes are engineered to wear out your bike rims as much as to pull you up ? I could fit a 25 year old rubber block to your brakes that would outlast and out brake modern brake shoes and cause zero wear to the rims ... but Shimano are not going to sell many wheelsets and brakes with that are they ! Mmmm

That would surprise, and alarm, me greatly.

That can't be true surely?


Cheers

Chris

chunkytfg

Panter wrote:

peanut wrote:

sloxam wrote:

i have an ocr 2 which will have the same/better brakes (tektro) than your scr 3. i upgraded to ultegra pads and they're still sh*t. on my old bike i had 105 brakes and they were much better.

would it surprise you to learn that bike brake shoes are engineered to wear out your bike rims as much as to pull you up ? I could fit a 25 year old rubber block to your brakes that would outlast and out brake modern brake shoes and cause zero wear to the rims ... but Shimano are not going to sell many wheelsets and brakes with that are they ! Mmmm

That would surprise, and alarm, me greatly.

That can't be true surely?


Cheers

Chris

If it's not true then why to rims have wear indicators on them?

ColinJ

richardjallen wrote:

I hope someone who knows physics can back up the argument that you will probably be able to apply more pressure once you have already begun to close your grip on the breaks. Think of a weight lifter squatting down to lift a bar-bell. I think perhaps due to leverage that the muscles become more effective once they the lifter has begun to stand up. So I suggest it follows that when your hand is stretching to grip the break from the hood you will not be able to apply as much force as once you have begun to squeeze it. Some initial slack would be useful.

Well, I do have an Engineering degree but I don't tend to think of Physics when cycling because I ride my bikes to clear my head not to clutter it up even more .

Having said that, I did find myself thinking about this braking issue on yesterday's ride so I observed carefully how I used my brakes. This is what I came up with...

Having blocks set close to rims effectivly gives you 'Digital' control of braking (pun not intended) - the brakes are initially fully off, but then with a few mm of pull they are full on. It is tricky to apply fine control that way.

As I mentioned above - I set up my brakes with more clearance and this gives me more 'Analogue' control. I pull the levers about 1/3 travel to start braking and then go to full braking over the second 1/3 of travel. It is much easier to exercise fine control over a longer pull. It is also possible to get a better grip on the lever as it gets closer to the bars and hence pull harder.

It is obviously important not to overdo the clearances because you don't want to be in the situation where you have so much pull that the levers are against the bars and you still aren't stopping :shock:! Example - I was about to go out mountain biking with a friend once when I noticed that her brakes were really sloppy. I pulled both levers hard against the bars yet I could still push the bicycle forward with the wheels turning - scary!

The bike I was riding yesterday has a mid-range spec. - Mavic Open Pro rims, Michelin Krylion tyres, Campag Athena (earlier version of Centaur) dual-pivot brake callipers, Campag blocks. I have average size hands, average length fingers, and average hand strength (all for an adult male). If I can lock my wheels up easily, which I can, anyone who can open a jam jar and who has a decent well-adjusted bike should be able to!

On yesterday's ride I tried braking from the hoods using just my index fingers. I normally do this when riding in the middle of a group because it is difficult to accidentally over-brake and cause crashes. I was alone yesterday so I pulled the levers as hard as I could and almost locked the wheels, but it was too much like hard work. Using 3 fingers on each hand from the hoods, I could brake hard enough to lock the wheels in an emergency.

If I had time to anticipate the need for heavy braking, I'd definitely do it from the drops. It is easier and places the rider in a lower, safer position i.e. less likely to go over the bars.

richardast wrote:

After years away from road bikes, I found braking from the hoods a bit disconcerting.
I can certainly get the pressure to stop, in fact, if a sudden stop is required then the elevated position sometimes makes me feel like I might go over the top of the bars.
If I'm going really quick I make sure I'm on the drops for exactly that reason, ars* planted very firmly on the seat gives the back wheel better grip and more efficient braking.

I had to descend a 20% twisty, turny hill yesterday. The tarmac was worn smooth, it was wet and there were soggy leaves everywhere. I definitely didn't want to go down that on the hoods... :shock: !!! I was on the drops, with 3 fingers on each lever. If my little fingers had been longer, they'd have been used too! I had my bum back as far as it would go on the saddle. It was a bit dodgy because with too much braking the wheels would have slid out. Too little braking and I'd have built up too much speed and overcooked the bends. I wouldn't recommend going down a hill like that with brakes adjusted too close to the rims for the reasons stated above.

Finally, some braking advice for less experienced cyclists:

Make sure you know which lever controls which brake! The front brake gives the most stopping power. In an emergency on a good dry surface, the back brake has very little effect, but using the back brake is useful when conditions are less than perfect. At all costs, avoid locking the front wheel. It is almost impossible to recover from a front wheel slide - I know from painful experience! It is often possible to escape from a back wheel sliding out if you release the back brake quickly enough, but it is obviously something to try and avoid.

It would be sensible to practice emergency braking away from traffic. You don't want to be doing it for the first time in heavy traffic on a wet road! If you can find a corner of your local park, that might be ideal - falling off on grass hurts a lot less than on tarmac.

While I've been typing this, other posts have been coming in...

peanut wrote:

Would it surprise you to learn that bike brake shoes are engineered to wear out your bike rims as much as to pull you up ? I could fit a 25 year old rubber block to your brakes that would outlast and out brake modern brake shoes and cause zero wear to the rims ... but Shimano are not going to sell many wheelsets and brakes with that are they ! Mmmm

That reminds me - don't try and get the last couple of miles out of your brake blocks. I did this on my previous mountain bike which had conventional brakes (i.e. not disk brakes). I went flying down a steep descent and wore the last of the rubber away halfway down. Result - one destroyed front rim :evil: !!!