Mayo Negative

Squiggsy

The David Walsh book (Lance to Landis) makes the allegations stated above.

It's a one-sided argument in the book but still pretty compelling. Think it all depends who you want to believe to start with.

aurelio_-_banned

Squiggsy wrote:

The David Walsh book (Lance to Landis) makes the allegations stated above.

It's a one-sided argument in the book but still pretty compelling. Think it all depends who you want to believe to start with.

That's not the whole story. The revelations of blood doping within Discovery actually came to light when various pieces of evidence, including a now-famous transcript of an instant messenger conversation were subpoenaed during the Armstrong/ SCA court hearing. (SCA being the company due to pay Armstrong a $5 million 'bonus' on winning 6 consecutive Tours). The outcome of this case was that SCA had to pay the bonus, not because the evidence of doping by Armstrong was discredited (as Armstrong later tried to claim), but rather because the fact of whether he doped or not was ruled to be immaterial and all that mattered was whether he was or wasn't officially the winner of six straight Tours. Walsh's book merely collated all this evidence (and more) and put it together in his book.

That IM conversation:

An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005.

---

Cyclevaughters: frankie - hey - thanks for talking the other day

FDREU: no problem, where are you

Cyclevaughters: back in CO

FDREU: nice, I just got home, isnt' it like 5AM

Cyclevaughters: sometimes i think i'm going to go nuts

Cyclevaughters: yeah

Cyclevaughters: it's 5am

FDREU: I agree, I came home and the air conditioning is broken

Cyclevaughters: ouch

FDREU: did your kid grow twice it's size in the two weeks you were gone

Cyclevaughters: yeah, his feet look bigger for some eason

FDREU: funny

Cyclevaughters: anyhow, i never can quite figure out why i don't just play along with the lance crowd - i mean shit it would make my life easier, eh? it's not like i never played with hotsauce, eh?

FDREU: I know, but in the end i don't think it comes back to bite you

FDREU: I play along, my wife does not, and Lance hates us both

FDREU: it's a no win situation, you know how he is. Once you leave the team or do soemthing wrong you forever banned

Cyclevaughters: i suppose - you know he tried to hire me back in 2001... he was nice to me... i just couldn't deal with that whole world

FDREU: I did not know that

FDREU: look at why everyone leaves, it's way to controlling

Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now all the teams got 25 injections every day

Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO

FDREU: you mean all the riders

Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole

FDREU: it's crazy

Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of shit when he'd say everyone was doing it

FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the Tour and lance but it's just playing the game

Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39%

FDREU: when in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - whtever

FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not

FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff

Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone

FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group

Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the method

FDREU: explain that, classics to climber

FDREU: when did you talk with floyd

Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George

Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal

Cyclevaughters: or at least i did

FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan

Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells

FDREU: they have it mastered. good point

Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine

FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed

FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig

Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers

Cyclevaughters: on the rest day

Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing

FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels

Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it

FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so pissed at them this entire tour

Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys

Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the shit when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird

FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason

FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest

Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies"

FDREU: they won't stop

FDREU: I agree

---

Foer more on this story the following American radio shows are good start.

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=150

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=151

http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154

iainf72

What I love about this is

Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

Uh huh. okay.

timoid.

iainf72 wrote:

What I love about this is

Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001

Uh huh. okay.

Maybe he was racing at 42% in 2001. The new test for EPO had been developed and they hadn't figured out how to get round it yet. JJ went clean in 2000 I think for the same reason.

iainf72

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe he was racing at 42% in 2001. The new test for EPO had been developed and they hadn't figured out how to get round it yet. JJ went clean in 2000 I think for the same reason.

Not convinced. I reckon Jan was juicing good and proper through his whole career. You don't come 2nd in the Tour with 42% - Or if you did, you'd have to be maintaining that for the entire Tour.

timoid.

iainf72 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe he was racing at 42% in 2001. The new test for EPO had been developed and they hadn't figured out how to get round it yet. JJ went clean in 2000 I think for the same reason.

Not convinced. I reckon Jan was juicing good and proper through his whole career. You don't come 2nd in the Tour with 42% - Or if you did, you'd have to be maintaining that for the entire Tour.

But Moreau was 4th on 38%

iainf72

Timoid. wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe he was racing at 42% in 2001. The new test for EPO had been developed and they hadn't figured out how to get round it yet. JJ went clean in 2000 I think for the same reason.

Not convinced. I reckon Jan was juicing good and proper through his whole career. You don't come 2nd in the Tour with 42% - Or if you did, you'd have to be maintaining that for the entire Tour.

But Moreau was 4th on 38%

Mmmmm. Yes, good point. If we believe him I suppose. He does live in Switzerland and is experienced though :P

skavanagh.bikeradar

So was that the cleanest Tour in recent history?

timoid.

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

So was that the cleanest Tour in recent history?

Possibly 2006 as all Fuentes clients had no access to their stored blood and had to ride on just the 8 pints.

aurelio_-_banned

Timoid. wrote:

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

So was that the cleanest Tour in recent history?

Possibly 2006 as all Fuentes clients had no access to their stored blood and had to ride on just the 8 pints.

Maybe. The word is that Landis didn't get his usual "800 ml of packed cells" on the rest days either! It's a pity that he was still charged up on artificial testosterone in an attempt to counter it's natural depletion throughout the race, so aiding his day-to-day recovery! (By the way, anyone else remember how Boardman once said that the fact he suffered from a depleted testosterone level in a stage race was a major reason why he would never win the Tour unless he took to boosting it artificially?).

I was actually on the Joux-Plane that day and don't think I have seen a more knacked-looking bunch of riders than those in the group chasing Landis. Landis looked well composed in comparison and given his performances immediately beforehand it was obvious many simply couldn't believe what they were seeing, especially when they saw the state of those in the chasing group.

iainf72

aurelio wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe. The word is that Landis didn't get his usual "800 ml of packed cells" on the rest days either! It's a pity that he was still charged up on artificial testosterone in an attempt to counter it's natural depletion throughout the race, so aiding his day-to-day recovery!

Ahhh, but his hematocrit apparantly went up during the Tour.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20 ... andis.html

aurelio_-_banned

iainf72 wrote:

aurelio wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe. The word is that Landis didn't get his usual "800 ml of packed cells" on the rest days either! It's a pity that he was still charged up on artificial testosterone in an attempt to counter it's natural depletion throughout the race, so aiding his day-to-day recovery!

Ahhh, but his hematocrit apparantly went up during the Tour.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20 ... andis.html

That is hardly 'natural' in a stage race is it? The quote I read stated that Landis didn't get the blood pack which was due just before the stage to Morzine, with the rider saying that because of this his ride was truly amazing. He may well have got a few "packed cells' earlier on in the race.

I've seen the story you link to before. I found this bit particularly interesting!

“Clinger told me that while he was racing in 2002 on the United States Postal Service Pro Cycling Team he used HGH, testosterone and EPO along with Floyd Landis. David told me, and I quote, 'Landis used more HGH than anyone he had ever witnessed before. He would use entire vials of HGH and he is crazy.' ”

timoid.

aurelio wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

aurelio wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Maybe. The word is that Landis didn't get his usual "800 ml of packed cells" on the rest days either! It's a pity that he was still charged up on artificial testosterone in an attempt to counter it's natural depletion throughout the race, so aiding his day-to-day recovery!

Ahhh, but his hematocrit apparantly went up during the Tour.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/20 ... andis.html

That is hardly 'natural' in a stage race is it? The quote I read stated that Landis didn't get the blood pack which was due just before the stage to Morzine, with the rider saying that because of this his ride was truly amazing. He may well have got a few "packed cells' earlier on in the race.

I've seen the story you link to before. I found this bit particularly interesting!

“Clinger told me that while he was racing in 2002 on the United States Postal Service Pro Cycling Team he used HGH, testosterone and EPO along with Floyd Landis. David told me, and I quote, 'Landis used more HGH than anyone he had ever witnessed before. He would use entire vials of HGH and he is crazy.' ”

That would explain the forehead and chin alright.