Kids running riot - a modern PC disease?

SteveR_100Milers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6972809.stm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7052267.stm

When will the PC stupidity stop, and when will people realise that some form of physical punishment is required in order to train boys/young men into adults. It's the way in the animal kingdom, and frankly 12 yr old kids getting away with alpha males behaviour is no longer acceptable. Communities used to police themselves, and quite often that simply involved a cuff round the ear, but importantly it was a physical action. I'm not suggesting sectarian style beatings, but this is just getting out of control. Do we all just stand back and let kids run riot?

Hotblack Desiato

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Do we all just stand back and let kids run riot?

Nope. Beat the shite out of them until they learn some respect.

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drenkrom

Make 'em burn up that extra energy on a bike. Worked wonders for me!

Izembard

You are having a laugh aren't you. Just take a look at the level of violence being used in gangs across this country. We have warfare going on around us.

In Manchester, London, Nottingham and Liverpool and probably a load of other city's to boot teenagers are killing one another and anyone who gets in the way with guns. These are not 19 year olds I'm talking about 14 and 15 year old kids who have been brought up in a playstation world with no understanding of the value of life.

The whole of Liverpool knows who killed Rhys Jones but not a single person will stand up in court and give evidence.

The real tradgedy here is attitude of those involved who will never, despiteb everything the authorities do, give a toss!!

chrisjsmith

Please note - the use of the word "black" in the following post applies only to the slightly deranged people who think they are gangsters, not the skin colour. I saw a "black" ginger 12 year old white kid the other day talking like he was "in the hood"

It's the gang/ghetto/pseudo-"black" culture that has really caused this. The role models are all singing about women's asses and killing white people. It's amazing that this is allowed but if I sing about killing black gangsters i'll get chucked in jail for racism. Also, most people think that Hackney is sodding Harlem. Some people are really deluded - it's a media-driven mental sickness.

If they do catch the buggers they should chuck them into the army - compulsory service!

I have been the vicitim of an attempted stabbing, a train mugging and I've seen them with sodding hand guns living in Leyton.

jpembroke

Do you really think that the British Army wants to babysit a bunch of brain dead drug dealing sociopaths who don't even speak a recognisable language? Just because they like running around with guns does not mean they are going to make it in the armed forces.

Parkey

I really do hate it when people go on and on about "political correctness gone mad" and the "PC brigade" all the time. This is an issue with teaching self-disipline to young people and human rights. It has nothing to do with "political correctness".

These kids have been brought up with a lack of incentives. No rewards for doing good, no punishment for doing bad. That's why they don't know right from wrong.

Anonymous

But they do know right from wrong.That's why they do wrong in preference to right.
And all this nonsense about human rights is a laugh. Don't their victims have rights?

chrisjsmith

Victims should have ultimate rights.

"The only way to teach stupid people is via pain". The army provides sufficient "pain".

These kids have been brought up with a lack of incentives. No rewards for doing good, no punishment for doing bad. That's why they don't know right from wrong.

That's not an excuse. The parents should be held equally accountable until 16 years old.

crackle

chrisjsmith wrote:

Victims should have ultimate rights.

"The only way to teach stupid people is via pain". The army provides sufficient "pain".

These kids have been brought up with a lack of incentives. No rewards for doing good, no punishment for doing bad. That's why they don't know right from wrong.

That's not an excuse. The parents should be held equally accountable until 16 years old.

So then the next question - If it's the parents fault, why do they have no skills, no moral standards and if they do why aren't they able to pass them onto their children?

jpembroke

chrisjssmith - I really hate to break it to you like this but the army doesn't want them; they really don't. The British Army is renowned as a very well trained, elite fighting force. What the hell do they want these kids for? Ever seen the Trident episode of 'Yes, Prime Minister'? It may be worth a look.

chrisjsmith

They're no good for front line or officer material, but someone needs to "support" the existing troops and perhaps they would learn some useful skills and moral standards in the process?

Community service on steroids?

Opportunities are made available to everyone without prejudice in this country (believe it or not). It's up to the individuals to take these opportunities or not. It's also up to the individuals to self-motivate and set themselves goals. Humans are too quick to blame stuff on other people rather than themselves.

Back in '97 I had a choice to work in the local offy and go down the council scum route or do something about it. I did something about it off my own back with no financial or motivational support whatsoever.

People are just lazy.

ankev1

The Army could take them on and it probably could turn most of them round but you would have to permit the Army to effectively run punishment battalions for their initial trainng as the normal system - remember it's set up to train volunteer recruits who by definition want to be there - would not be suitable i.e. the Army would need permission to take the gloves off.

Secondly, you would have to make it worth the Army's while as such training is manpower intensive and they would want some use out of these people. So they would have to be sentenced to about six years service after passing out of basic training.

stevechambers34

one of the few good ideas used by Nazi Germany was the founding of 'Penal Battalions' composing of criminals etc they were often used leading attacks, perhaps these miscreants would learn something about the value of life if they were sent to Afghanistan?
I am sick and tired hearing about these poor unfortunate 'kids' if they can't behave beat em or let them get shot at.

Hotblack Desiato

They should be forced to fight to the death for my amusement.



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top_bhoy

Hotblack Desiato wrote:

They should be forced to fight to the death for my amusement.



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Now that dog fighting, c0ck fighting and badger baiting is no longer a legal and viable pastime - I don't see why your amusement should be curtailed and your sugggestion seems a more than suitable substitution

Hotblack Desiato

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Hotblack Desiato wrote:

They should be forced to fight to the death for my amusement.



.

Now that dog fighting, c0ck fighting and badger baiting is no longer a legal and viable pastime - I don't see why your amusement should be curtailed and your sugggestion seems a more than suitable substitution

You Sir, are obviously a man of fine breeding and intellectual greatness.

Come the Revolution, you shall be my next in command.

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stevechambers34

they could even be used as extras in war films, just blow em up and shoot em ! It would save a fortune on film production and would be 100% real !

SteveR_100Milers

Parkey wrote:

I really do hate it when people go on and on about "political correctness gone mad" and the "PC brigade" all the time. This is an issue with teaching self-disipline to young people and human rights. It has nothing to do with "political correctness".

These kids have been brought up with a lack of incentives. No rewards for doing good, no punishment for doing bad. That's why they don't know right from wrong.

I think we all know the immediate causes for such behaviour, but how do you change it?Is it OK to use physical punishement on young males in order to teach them self discipline? If not then how do you do it, because a significant number of parents seem incapable of instilling such values. The "political correctness" is the trend towards outlawing such physical punishment (e.g. welsh AM last week calling for a complete legal ban on smacking in Wales - a female AM if that makes any difference). So how are you going to teach parents to teach kids, i.e. break the cycle? You can't, and its naive to think it can be done, humans are, when overcrowded as we are becoming in this country too concerned about their own little kingdom and to hell with anyone else. Bring on the "Neighbourhood Vigilante" scheme I say..

Garybee

ankev1 wrote:

The Army could take them on and it probably could turn most of them round but you would have to permit the Army to effectively run punishment battalions for their initial trainng as the normal system - remember it's set up to train volunteer recruits who by definition want to be there - would not be suitable i.e. the Army would need permission to take the gloves off.

Secondly, you would have to make it worth the Army's while as such training is manpower intensive and they would want some use out of these people. So they would have to be sentenced to about six years service after passing out of basic training.

Nice to see that someone actually grasps that the military would find this kind of thing a massive burden. It's very easy to say "let the army deal with them" but the reason we have the military that we do is that we don't have national service etc. The MOD is already massively overstretched and filling it with people who would be a massive administrative/training burden is really not feasible.

stevechambers34

seriously now, the problems are many and intricate and not all agree but this is how I (and many other of my male and some female peers/colleagues see it from ALL ages and backgrounds).
Education IS now slanted towards the Female mind , therefore young ('working class')males are not engaged in education ...they fall below and get few if any 'decent' job offers. Male role models are poor at least the ones the media in all it's guises push on society and youth in general.
'Easy' jobs ie jobs that your dad, grandad, uncle or mates dad got you in engineering, mining , fishing, agriculture etc have all been allowed to go abroad and so young males that had liitle or no education but could do 'hands on ' jobs are unemployed. WE were competetive but gross under- investment, shortsightedness, greed and sheer stupidity bring us where we now are ie prefering to get things made abroad much ,much cheaper in order to ensure large profits for 'upper class' shareholders and businessmen who talk a good world but destroy by their greed,tax evasion whilst living in their gated communities then retire abroad and bemoan the society they aided in destroying.

girofan

'Easy' jobs ie jobs that your dad, grandad, uncle or mates dad got you in engineering, mining , fishing, agriculture etc have all been allowed to go abroad and so young males that had liitle or no education but could do 'hands on ' jobs are unemployed. WE were competetive but gross under- investment, shortsightedness, greed and sheer stupidity bring us where we now are ie prefering to get things made abroad much ,much cheaper in order to ensure large profits for 'upper class' shareholders and businessmen who talk a good world but destroy by their greed,tax evasion whilst living in their gated communities then retire abroad and bemoan the society they aided in destroying.

All this may well be true, but it doesn't excuse the parents or the little b***ards.
We have tried the 'modern way' for the last 25 years. IT DOESN'T WORK! So let's go back to something that does, with a proven record. Slap 'em, lock 'em up, hang them if they commit murder!

gillan1969

wow

some good old 'unreconstructed' nonsense still going on in soapbox

violence begets violence

girofan

you seem to forget that the world moves on. I won't call it progress as you would probably not veiw it that way as you seem to want to turn the clock back. You'll probably only want to turn the clock back of those things that you see fit of course. You'll probably not want to turn the clock back for a whole host of other things

problem is the world is a very complex model where little changes in one thing may lead to big changes elsewhere

still...if you can convince yourself that just battering someone will help

does wife of girofan get a beating if girofan's tea is not on the table?????

spen666

girofan wrote:

All this may well be true, but it doesn't excuse the parents or the little b***ards.
We have tried the 'modern way' for the last 25 years. IT DOESN'T WORK! So let's go back to something that does, with a proven record. Slap 'em, lock 'em up, hang them if they commit murder!

Of course girofans approach is 100% guaranteed to work- before we abolished the death penalty we never had murders

We never had gangs of thugs- I mean Ronnie and Reggie loved their mum and never hurt anyone

Football hooliganism did not exist before 1982 - I mean Man U fans and others never rioted in the 60 or 70s did they?

The Mods and Rockers never fought, slashed or stabbed anyone in the 50s/60s did they?

Life was idylic until 25 years ago

gillan1969

good old girofan

should we go back to 1982 of the giro as well

no tri bars or carbon frames

no scientific training

no eurosport

no cheap flights to go and watch it

anything else you want to change???

stevechambers34

It's really difficult to know just what the REAL truth IS, there really isn't enough GENUINE research going on into finding out why 'youth' is troublesome if indeed it is, there is even less of a concerted effort to sort things out if they are wrong.
Much 'research' is heavily slanted and done to prove the researchers (or employers) point whatever that may be, it often consists of a group of set questions that WILL give a certain range of answers, much better research can be done by actually interviewing people from a genuine cross section of society not just in the south east corner of Britain.
It may be true that things are worse or it may just be oversaturation by the media of sensationalist events.
I am not sure of the violence begets violence bit as since the end of corporal punishment in schools and the relaxation of discipline in schools things have possibly got worse, over liberalisation of often immature children is not necessarily a good thing.
The other problem is the official and media refusal to tackle the real problems for fear of being labelled racist, if you watch a certain TV channel's news you rarely if ever hear of the colour of 'suspects' skin unless they are 'white' in which case it is often the first part of their description, we can no longer ignore the REAL truth that there are serious problems in 'black and minority ethnic' communities with gang violence.

Jon G

stevechambers34 wrote:

I am not sure of the violence begets violence bit as since the end of corporal punishment in schools and the relaxation of discipline in schools things have possibly got worse

Relaxation of discipline is much more the issue than corporal punishment itself. Any teacher from 'those days' will tell you that many secondary school miscreants would, given the choice, opt for being caned in preference to a long boring detention.

The problems with detentions, which most 'offenders' really dislike, are the cost of the staff time involved and the law stating that parents can withdraw their children from them.

The US practice of Saturday detentions might be an even more substantial punishment, but the above problems would need to be overcome first.

Jon

Jon G

stevechambers34 wrote:

the REAL truth that there are serious problems in 'black and minority ethnic' communities with gang violence.

With 'gangs' in the sense of groups who hang around together and see outsiders as targets for abuse, bullying, casual robbery, etc, this is a case of it tending to be ethnic minority members who are in the socio-economic 'niches' which encourage this behaviour: in areas without much ethnic minority population, the white 'underclass' do much the same things.

With organised criminal gangs (e.g. drug dealing ones) a key issue is the severe shortage of police officers from ethnic minority backgrounds. Infiltration is often a good way of dealing with criminal gangs, and the lack of police officers who can successfully gain entry to gangs composed of EM members gives such gangs a significant competitive advantage over 'indigenous' ones. The same factor encourages youth gangsterism: few police officers can pose as 16 year olds.

Jon

girofan

you seem to forget that the world moves on. I won't call it progress as you would probably not veiw it that way as you seem to want to turn the clock back. You'll probably only want to turn the clock back of those things that you see fit of course. You'll probably not want to turn the clock back for a whole host of other things


does wife of girofan get a beating if girofan's tea is not on the table?????

gillan1969, does that refer to the year you were born?
After your erudite and stinging critique of my opinion, may I say that your argument contains a degree of merit.
Unfortunately you seem to view (and here I may be wrong), these bombers, youth gang members, drug peddlers and murderers as sane rational people. They are certainly not! And as for the old cry oft heard in lawcourts up and down the land, "he comes from a broken home, M'laud." Well the fact is he broke it!
As for turning the clock back, it is far too late for that remedy as woolly minded liberals of which I am ashamed to say I was one, have influenced the public psyche to such an extent that any reversal in policy is now viewed as you yourself view it, as reggresion to a uncivilised era, however much merit there may be in the argument. What you and others overlook is that the monsters you are dealing with are not even at the Neanderthal stage let alone civilised. If as I suspect you did not live through the era I earlier described, it does not give any merit to your argument on a practical level.
But not being quite the grumpy residivist you would paint me, perhaps through BikeRadar's website you would wish to enlighten us all with your solution to this out of control situation.

:roll: Oh! And before I forget, I do not beat wifey for tea not being on the table. We do not take tea, we are much too refined. We take supper!!!

passout

Yep..let's blame the kids, that's constructive isn't it??

Are you lot actually going to do anything about this?? If you did, like me, and go into teaching you'll soon realise things are afar from easy - there are no simple solutions.

For the record most kids (of whatever background) are decent.

jpembroke

When was the golden age of safety in our inner cities? I'm really interested to know.