rip off garage

popette

Hello soapbox. It's my first ever rant on here. My car sometimes loses power at speed on the motorway - just when you put your foot down to overtake etc. It's scary when it happens as I just have to coast over to the hard shoulder without power.

Took to the garage. £250 to fix and they assured me that it wouldn't happen again.

It happened again. Took back to garage and they said that they now suspect the turbo and will need a further £188 just to find out if it really is the turbo. To fix the turbo would then be approaching £2k!!!

I think they've got a cheek to fix the wrong problem and then charge me again to find out what the problem actually was in the first place. Surely they should do that gratis seeing as the first fix was not related to the issue I experienced. Plus, how can I trust them to get the thing right seeing as they have already fu*ked it up before.

They get me mad!

alfablue

I wouldn't use them after this, If it was a main dealer, go to an independent / independent specialist, they usually know the cars better and don't rip you off for their ignorance. What car is it?

popette

toyota previa. It was a toyota garage. I'd already been to an independent, friend of the family, garage and their diagnostics software wasn't giving accurate enough fault codes to get to the root of the problem. The theory was that the toyota garage would be able to pinpoint the problem more accurately so that I wouldn't have to spend money on non-related other problems. ha :roll:
I've been on the blower to toyota head office today - they're very helpful and looking into it. I'm just not going back there even if it is right at the end of my road.

alfablue

Hi Popette

I know from experience with Alfa Romeo main dealers, their mechanics are hopeless, they just try and fit new bits based on dodgy diagnosis. Toyota's customer staisfaction suggests that you should have a better experience, but this is probably a rogue dealer. I am no car expert, but whilst it could be a turbo problem, it could be something a lot simpler but giving thise symptoms. These are the symptoms of fuel starvation, could be an air leak in the inlet manifold, of a fuel-line problem for example. £2k on a new turbo is drastic! Depending on the age of your car, that sort of sum may right it off! If it is the turbo, there mayt well be places that can repair them or where you can get cheap replacements or reconditioned units.

What about posting a question on this forum? My experience with a similar Alfa forum has saved me hundreds or thousands of pounds as inevitably someone has had the same problem and found a solution. These forums are also a good source for finding good independents that people trust.

Good luck!

alfablue

this site offers some suggestions for diagnosis

Symptom : Engine Lacks Power

Worn internal engine components
Repair engine as required

Fuel system defective or incorrectly adjusted
Replace or adjust faulty components

Low boost
Check wastegate and actuator operation

Damaged turbocharger
Determine reason for failure - repair or replace turbo

Air filter blocked
Replace air filter

Air pipe into turbo restricted
Replace pipe

Air pipe from filter to turbo leaking
Check hoses for splits and tighten hose clips

Air pipe from turbo to inlet manifold leaking
Check hoses and intercooler for leaks and replace

Ignition timing incorrectly adjusted
Check and reset

Blockage in exhaust system
Replace silencers or catalytic converter

Exhaust gas leaking from manifold
Replace gasket or manifold - check bolts for tightness

They also do a repair service and sell recon and new turbos

popette

Alfablue - thanks for those links. I'll investigate further when the kids are in bed. I'm sure that I'll be able to find someone who has experienced similar issues on one of those forums.

I've been round to different garages - my car is worth £5000 now but it still would be cheaper for me to repair the turbo than to start buying another. I've only had it a year and it really is fantastic for me and the kids (got four of 'em so not many cars big enough to fit us all in plus a couple of buggies).

I also went to another toyota garage who told me that there is no way that a front speed sensor could possibly have caused the fail safe engine cut out that I had seen. I'm goign to get back onto toyota customer services to see what they say.

Panter

If it does turn out to be the turbo, you can get reconditioned ones from specialist builders a lot cheaper than that.
I bought one from UK Turbo's, which was fine.
Mind you, they're still several hundred pounds, they're sophisticated components.


Hopefully customer services will see you right, and I think you may be on the right line with sticking to main dealers assumind your rogue one gets sorted out.
I only drive Audi's, and on the very rare occasion when one plays up I always used to spend a lot more taking it to 2 or 3 independants who would fail to deal with it properly.
The main dealers are a lot more expensive but, should be, al ot quicker in their diagnosis.

All depends on the age of your car and service jhistory etc.

HTH

Chris


incidentally, it doesn't sound much like a turbo fault, that would give much reduced power or, more likely, a loud clattering and huge amounts of black smoke if the thrust bearing had failed.

Good luck !

popette

hi panter,
They think it may be a valve surrounding the turbo - "great", I said, "just replace the valve then" but they said that it's all one component and the whole thing needs to be changed.
It's going in on monday for further investigation work on the turbo. The mechanic I know also said that if it was turbo then we wouldn't have been able to see the car for all the black smoke.
i wish I knew a bit more to be able to spot when I'm being ripped off. Luckily the mechanic I know is talking to toyota a bit for me. I'll have a look on those sites for the reconditioned turbos - that could be a good way of cutting the cost. Would toyota install one of those for me or would I have to get it done independently do you think?

ta

popette

OH MY FU*KING GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm about as angry as I could possibly be. Just got home to an answer machine message from Toyota saying that the garage fixed the first problem by replacing the sensor and the second problem of engine cutting out is unrelated.


ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH

I told them from the outset that the problem was the engine cutting out, at high speed on the motorway. It's nearly bloody killed us all a few times now. The problem has always been this from the first day I rang them.

I was trying to stay off the wine but I'm having a glass now. Need to calm down I'm about to explode!

sorry, had to vent. Toyota customer services shut, garage shut, husband at work, mum and dad out, no one to shout at. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

nicklouse

We are listening.

they just "fixed" the first thing they saw as wrong and did not fully investigate the issue by the sounds of it.

popette

Awww, thanks for listening. You're absolutely right - that's exactly what they've done and now they're trying to cover their arse and assuming I'm a complete moron who will just accept what they're telling me.

I just opened a letter from PPP which said they weren't paying my back injury claim because it didn't break the policy excess threshold - they lost one of the receipts obviously as my claim is for significantly more than the threshold.

Bloody incompetence all round today.

nwallace

Wikipedia Entry suggests that Previas are Super charged (engine driven turbine compressing intake air) rather than Odrut Charged (Exhauist gasses, spin turbine which compresses air)

Cuts out under acceleration?
(Super or Turbo charger faults would result in a lack of power but unlikely to cause a stall)

Only when cruising and decking it?
Or will it do it from a standing or slow start?

When it stalls do you have absolutely no power?
Can you turn the key back to ignition and get the thing to fire up while coasting?
(On stall while moving, dump clutch, release accelerator, turn key back 1 notch, turn to ignition, engine should fire if fuel and electrics are ok)

Possibilities I can think of are:

Overtaking technique
If your just decking it in the same gear you were in the engine may be struggling to accelerate and just chocking on the fuel/air mix it is being given, but that shouldn't cause a stall just lots of struggling followed by a sudden surge of power when it gets to a speed where it can cope.
: Shouldn't stall if your doing this, if it does engine probably stuffed

Electrical fault,
- when you accelerate everything surges, for example if the coil is badly earthed to the body and it surges and the earthing breaks you suddenly have no spark which means the engine stalls.
:Not easily detectable if only occuring under surge stress and the car is sitting still

- If it is drive by wire the pot on the accelerator may have a dead spot, that should however case computer to go into crawl home mode rather than full stall.
:Should report to computer or be in crawl home mode

Fuelling Fault
- What fuel are you using, poor ignition qualities may mean that the engine can't cope with a weak fuel mixture which may occur when you deck it
: detectable on rollers

- Fuel surging in tank and pipes, does this problem occur only when tank is low?
: Not detectable if car is sitting still

-Fuel injection issues, the black art of electronic fuel injection, I know nothing about them, Should be a lambda sensor which deals with the air/fuel mix. If its broken i would expect either nothing at all from the engine or an awareness of a problem at all speeds other than the one the default setting provides the right air/fuel mix for. Computer shoudl be able to detect it


Fueling issues i have had in a SAAB 99 (worn Carb, manually set timing, cable to throttle body)

I had my car stall on me while dropping into a circle at the back of Dundee.
Engine was timed with BP/Shell 95RON fuel, filled it with Texaco in Aberdeen, engine running poorly down A90, got to the circle and started braking from 70, engine splutters and dies, Vaccum lost, Brake Servo runs out of vaccum for assistance, very heavy brakes but stopped in time.

I've also had appalling power output while climbing Drumochter with a tank full of Tesco fuel. it was so poor I was struggling to get it past 3,000rpm in 3rd when I'm usually hammering along in 4th at 5,000 at that point. (I can usually recover from a badly timed gear change while climbing when struggling in 4th but 3rd to 2nd was just not a feasible change)

popette

hiya, thanks for your reply. The problem happens on the motorway usually, when I'm cruising along at say 70mph and then pull out to overtake something and put my foot down a bit - I don't floor it, just want a bit more power. It doesn't always happen but sometimes the engine management light comes on and the power is completely gone. Toyota called it failsafe mode and said there are only certain problems which will trigger it. From what they were telling me, it's designed to do that to stop something catastrophic happening. The engine is still running I think (it allowed me to get a bit further along onto a verge and out of a lorries way but that was crawling pace).
I've not tried turning the key while cruising. My immediate thought is to get over to the hard shoulder asap because I start going backwards compared to all the lorries and cars around me.
got to dash but I'll definitely bear your list in mind next week when I see the garage again.

Panter

Sorry to hear of your troubles.

Is cuctomer services the same as Toyota UK? I assume it is.

It sounds like fairly clear incompetence to me. The whole point in using an authorised dealer is to avoid service like that.

I wouldn't personally get too hung up in the technical details, it does sound like a sensor fault which on a modern car is far too technical for a home mechaic to diagnose, especially over the internet
Thats what yuor main dealer should be there for with their diagnostic equipment.

Personally, I'd get on to Toyota UK and explain that you'll be approaching BBC's top gear, watchdog, and anyone else who'll listen to how you've been treated.

Toyota have an awesome reputation for relibility and they'll be very keen to preserve that image.

Keep us posted.

top_bhoy

Panter wrote:

Personally, I'd get on to Toyota UK and explain that you'll be approaching BBC's top gear, watchdog, and anyone else who'll listen to how you've been treated.

Toyota have an awesome reputation for relibility and they'll be very keen to preserve that image.
Keep us posted.

Its surely far too early to be waving the big stick and being antagonistic before the main organisation has a chance to put it right or offer further advice. Its sometimes better to keep the people who can help onside for as long as possible!!! Its also better if the saga should continue that you are able to demonstrate a degree of being reasonable in your expectations and demands!!

Panter

not in this Country mate !

The earlier the big stick gets waved, the sooner things happen



Anyway, it sounds as though Toyota UK are fobbing her off, where else can she turn?

cheers

Chris

nwallace

popette wrote:

hiya, thanks for your reply. The problem happens on the motorway usually, when I'm cruising along at say 70mph and then pull out to overtake something and put my foot down a bit - I don't floor it, just want a bit more power. It doesn't always happen but sometimes the engine management light comes on and the power is completely gone. Toyota called it failsafe mode and said there are only certain problems which will trigger it.

You can ignore most of them if its definitely going into fail safe mode and not a stall, Dad had the accelerator sensor fail on his Laguna, apparently it is monitored often enough to detect slight movements made by the foot when holding constant speed and if these aren't present it assumes the pot has failed and goes into fail safe.

The fact its going into fail safe says that it is detectable by the on board computer and therefore beyond the basic knowledge of basic engines which a non-mechanic hobbyist is likely to know. It also puts it beyond the abilities of most non-franchised service centres unfortunately.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

An on-board diagnostics reader can be had for around £100. I've never been to a garage that didn't have one and I've only used independants. :?
Not that I need a reader to decipher any codes my car might throw up; you can read them with a paperclip!

top_bhoy

Panter wrote:

not in this Country mate !

The earlier the big stick gets waved, the sooner things happen



Anyway, it sounds as though Toyota UK are fobbing her off, where else can she turn?

cheers

Chris

Care to explain the first lines of your reply!!! I'll ignore that almost xenophobic remark as you seem to be doing far too much assuming and not actually knowing. I may well have lots more experience of the UK than yourself so there is no need for your remarks. No doubt your will allow you to excuse yourself!!

Anyway, so much for what you know - "BBC's top gear, watchdog" - I doubt these organisations would be interested unless you had spent longer negotiating and getting nowhere and being fobbed off. Theres a time and a place for the big stick. Citizens Bureau maybe a better start for Popette to find out what her consumer rights are before she spends much more money and time needlessly.

Panter

Have you ever actually been to citizens advice?

WEll, HAVE YOU????

Panter

Clearly not otherwise you'd know what a complete and utter waste of time they are.

Anyway, sorry if I caused offence, it wasn't the intention. I wrongly assumed because your location says Australia that you weren't resident.


You may be right, those organisations may not be interested, or they may.
The threat may be sufficient tio prompt them into being a bit more pro-active in this case. If so, it would save Popette the hassle and expense of legal advice.

IMO she shouldn't even have to worry about it, thats the whole point of paying the high prices of main dealer servicing, to be treated properly.

I don't wish to drag this post off topic, all the best Popette and I hope you get it sorted swiftly.

Cheers

Chris

RedAende

Does it only go into failsafe mode with a cold engine,

this happens on some turbo cars to stop over boost which would lead to 101% power on cold oil which would damage the internals.

chrisjsmith

My Rover did that. Just sudden power loss. It turned out to be a ADC on the ECU that had gone cranky. Cost me an entire new ECU, which then failed completely 2 weeks later while I was doing 65mph round the M25...

jc4lab

....

popette

RedAende wrote:

Does it only go into failsafe mode with a cold engine,

this happens on some turbo cars to stop over boost which would lead to 101% power on cold oil which would damage the internals.

no, it can happen at any time. It happens on the motorway when you've just taken your foot off a bit because the traffic has slowed and then you put foot down again (not thrashing it or anything) and that can trigger it. It doesn't always happen though.

popette

chrisjsmith wrote:

My Rover did that. Just sudden power loss. It turned out to be a ADC on the ECU that had gone cranky. Cost me an entire new ECU, which then failed completely 2 weeks later while I was doing 65mph round the M25...

not sure what your acronyms mean but I'm guessing ECU is something to do with on board computer?? Oh god, don't let it be something with that.

popette

update: a different toyota garage have been brilliant. They've taken the car in, done all the testing for free, diagnosed the turbo as being faulty and are repairing it next week at a slightly reduced price (because they feel bad at how the other toyota garage have ripped me off I think).

I'm still writing to complain about the first garage. They were so dishonest and irresponsible to tell me they had fixed the failsafe problem when they knew full well that fixing a speed sensor would never have resolved that particular issue. Just an apology and acceptance that they did the wrong thing would be nice.

I did look into getting a reconditioned turbo using my friendly independent garage, who I trust 100%. However, they told me that the cost difference wouldn't have been too great. Plus, seeing as Toyota have told me to get the work done, I think I'll be in a stronger position to kick off if it doesn't work if I ask toyota to do the work.

my first real test of the new turbo will be a 230 mile drive up to edinburgh, alone with my four kids in the afternoon/evening. I'll let you know how it goes. thanks for all your replies

Panter

Good stuff, hopefully thats the end of it then 8)

nwallace

Perversely my car started suffering from a similar problem, then it started doing it regardless.

Car runs, splutters, stalls then won't start for a couple of mins.

Eventually I got the car in a position while trying to drive it home once I had convinced dad that there really was a problem with it, where there is around 1 miles of road with constantly parked cars, and the engine only running for about 100m. Abandon car, get bus home, go off in huff etc.

Return later that night,
Start engine, running lumpy ok change coil. no difference but its running,
Change points (no electronic ignition in it.... yet) running a bit better ok drive it home
splutters twice on way.

ignition system has been replaced so next step is fuel system
Change mechanical fuelpump.... That pipe looks a bit knackered and there's some gunk on the pump outlet. hm.

Runs the same and while testing it on the road round the house it fails and won't start... push 1.5 tonnes of car back up hill to the house.

hrm, change Diaphram in carb... no wait that one is new looks perfect oh well er change the pipe then.............. what's this sellotape doing in here... think gunk... Oh! right pipe replaced, pump changed, tape removed right... running great now but a bit rich (no wonder!) take it out for a drive, splutters once.

Next night, Carb is in bits on the kitchen table as bits of sellotape get taken out of it (along with 24 years worth of other crap).

After this it didn't need any choke to start from cold (ie far too rich) turned it down massivley then went and got it tuned against an emissions meter and the handbrake fixed.

Er I have never seen 200 miles out of half a tank (25 litres) in a carburetted SAAB before.

So my rant is
People who use sellotape to fix problems instead of the proper solution (replace the pipe not make the outlet bigger)

4candles

Toyota gone wrong..!!. . :shock:

My 14 year old Celica GT4 (2ltr Turbo) still rips up the road, but turbos do NEED regular oil changes to keep them sweet and they need to be warmed up and let to cool properly too..